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Question for Christains. Abrotion and the bible

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posted on May, 28 2005 @ 07:04 PM
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Maybe this will help.



Originally posted by jake1997

While searching on another topic, I came across this verse

Ecc 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

My question is,
Do you know more verses that have direct meaning when considered in light of abortion?

Thanks.


My question is....




posted on May, 28 2005 @ 07:26 PM
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Jake that verse and the others you have point out have nothing in it condemning abortion so I have not other verses to give to you.

End of discussion for me, taking in consideration that you only want answers that can satisfy your point of view of righteousness.



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 09:17 PM
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[edit on 28-5-2005 by BaastetNoir]



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
the 10 commandements condemn abortion..."THOU SHALT NOT MURDER", and abortion IS MURDER.

Another human notion, I am waiting for the day in which the 10 commandments themselves miraculously appear in from national tv.


well...huh... you asked WHERE IN THE BIBLE and I told you where...lol
Marg, you were the one who asked WHERE DOES THE BIBLE CONDEMN ABORTION, and I gave you THE BIBLICAL COMANDEMENT. "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER". no need to fish for verses... its right there in the 10 COMMANDEMENTS, the basis for the whole Bible.

Now if you didnt like the direct answer and now want to divert the atention of the debate to the origins of the Bible thats a whole diferent story ...



The “THOU SHALT NOT MURDER” is only taken into account in one sided situations, KILL THEE ENEMIES, if they don’t agree with your religion has been used through history in the name of the lord.


AS to killing people that disagree with my religion, i never KILED ANYONE or ABORTED ANY LIFE therefore i ahve NOT Broken the commandement in question.

If by any chance you are referring to the atrocities donne in the name of Jesus, i suggest you take a look at Israel which has been BOMBARDED my religious muslim fanatics, that wish to DESTROY the Jewish people just because they have a different belief and are of a different race. Dont get me wrong I ma not making excuses for anyone, Im simply saying there are and have been attrocities made in the name OF ALL RELIGIONS. In fact take a look at Suddan where African Christians are beeing MURDERED by African Muslims.... interesting huh? and by the way the Muslim Religion does ASK FOR THE DEATH of all infidels = non-believers.


I regard the ten commandments as nothing more that an attempt to control masses by at the time of Moses time when his flock got out of control later bible redactors found the Moses laws good for control.


well, than you will have to go and fight against Thousands of years of History, because either we like it or not, the 10 commandements are evident ine EVERY society even if they are presented differently... Murder is a crime wherever you are in the world.

Even if the Commandements were only for Moses times, the point is they are good, and give ppl a good guide line for life.
I can only speak for myself of course, but i see no reason why would want to go out and comict murder, or adultery, or envy what my neighboors have or raise false witness against anyone, so therefore the 10 commandements are nothing to be bashed at all, and i do believe that EVERYONE should read them at least once a day, maybe that would make ppl a litle more loving.


Sorry I am not one to take the words of others without a prof just because somebody than die long before I was born decided to write it as the truth.


agaon, you asked where in the bible, and I simply wrote where.
What I dont understand is, if you dont believe in The Bible and you dont care about it, and belive its man made, than what do you care what it says??? Go and celebrate abortion as "women rights"... all you want. you do not abide or live by the Christian faith so what do you care what they do or belive ? You are free to have as many abortions as you want.
Your conscience is clean right ?


Beware every time you spill your see you are killing too and is a sin by bible standards.


I dont recall spilling anything... again i simply answered your question Marg.


Ten commandments look more like some of the words found in the Egyptian book of the death and occurs it should after all Moses grew up with the Egyptian influences.


Moses was not living by the Egyptian Faith anymore when he was given the Commandments. Aslo as fair as I know "THE BOOK OF DEATH" was the "bad" book of the Egyptian Religion, so why on Earth would it be defending life ??? The Book of Death defending Life?? isnt that an oxymoron?


Moralistic views by bible standards taken out of context as the truth, is something I don't bite into at all, taken in consideration that a bible is still a man-made book.

Kind of the perfect "God send" for radical Christians fundamentalist to play with, interpreted in their own image, dissected and pushed unto others as the law and the will of "God"

Actually the bible is a very simple book miss interpreted to pursue and push personal agendas.

Like abortion, anti homosexuality and gender and racial profiling.



Again if you are not a Christian why bother ??? Freedom of Religion remember ?? even Kerry praise "the Lord" to get votes ....
Murder is murder PERIOD...it has nothing to do with Man made morals. Unless you are saying you are pro-murder, in that case ...hey go ahead kill whomever you want... otherwise I really dont see the sense in what you typed.


It most be great to be able to hide behind the bible to justify everything we do in earth as long as in the name of the lord.


That I wouldnt know... i do whatever I don in MY NAME ...


The problem with judging is . . . When it cannot be subjective. Your judgements are usually base on what your personal opinion is about what is right or wrong, perceptions, motives and understandings.

“Judge not, and ye shall not be judge”

Who is Supposed to Judge?
Judgement of sin is in the bible context and Christians believe something to be handle by God itself not by any human thinking that they are “Gods”.


YET you JUDGE people who follow and believ the Bible, simply because they DONT ACCEPT ABORTION, wich in my eyes is not abda thing to refute anyway.


The bible is used often by religious so call leaders to anoint themselves with the right to judge others and to claim that they have the right to do so.

And under that assumption many under false pretenses of God power commit more murder and death in this world.


I totaly and completly agree with that, and you will never know HOW MUCH I DO AGREE WIHT THAT !


Making the “YOU SHOULD NOT KILL” meaningless and empty.


THOU SHALT NOT MURDER will never be empty at the eyes of those who have love in their hearts for their neighbour.


Wake up and see reality of what so call judges of man in the name of the lord of the bible are doing in our country with their own brand of judgement.
Agreed, there is MUCH eveil donne in the name of Jesus all over the world, just like there is EVIL donne in the name of Allah, Lucifer, Buddah, "the Lord and The Lady", "Mainha", "Santeria", "Orixas" and I could go on for ours. But are ALL Belivers Evil? That I do NOT Belive.

And Presenting ABORTION as the murdering act that it is, IS GOOD not BAD.

Abortion is MURDER, is KILLING a life that had no time to choose what he/she would like to be whem they grow up.

I can only accept murder in very EXPCIFIC situations, and that is my opinon... simply my opinion, and again I have the right to express it... and everytime I see someone saying "ABORTION is GOOD, ITS A WOMANS CHOICE..." I as a WOMAN will express my opinon and SAY..." NO IM SORRY BUT ABORTION IS NOT GOOD, and A WOMANS CHOICE SHOULD BE WHAT BIRTH CONTROL TO USE, NOT WHAT BABY I KILL".

And again I dont understand WHAT THE PROBLEM IS... CHRISTIANS DO NOT BELIEVE IN OR APROVE OF ABORTION ! PERIOD !!! ITS THEIR RIGHT !
It is also THEIR RIGHT TO FREELY EXPRESS THEIR BELIEF!

It seems this country has forgotten that CHRISTIANS are HUMANS TOO and also HAVE THE RIGHT TO PROTEST and FREELY EXPRESS THEIR BELIFES. That is a right that belongs to EVERY CITIZEN, not just Liberals, Homosexuals, African-Americans , Muslims, Budhist, Feminist and all other groups. FREE SPEECH AND FREEDOM OF BELIEF IS FOR CHRISTIANS TO !

In this country ppl are allowed to WHATEVER THEY PLEASE, form abortions, to marrying cows to starving people to death!

Islam condems women that have donne abortions to be stoned to DEATH ! HOW ABOUT THAT ??? why isnt anyone ranting about that ?

As to myself I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN, AND I AM ALSO AGAISNT ABORTION, and now what ... what is the label reserved to me ?????????

ABORTION is MURDER wether you like to hear it or NOT !

Besides the title of this thread if i well remember is "QUESTION FOR CHRISTIANS", so if anyone who is not a CHRISTIAN can answer at their OWN RISK, right ?

" Let the without sin cast the first stone".... I will NOT cast stones, but I will ALWAYS STATE MY OPINION as everyone else claims the right to do.

And I will finish by quoting Jesus again, once the theme is Biblical
.."I dust my feet"

[edit on 28-5-2005 by BaastetNoir]



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Jake that verse and the others you have point out have nothing in it condemning abortion so I have not other verses to give to you.

End of discussion for me, taking in consideration that you only want answers that can satisfy your point of view of righteousness.


Your almost there marge. Almost.

The question was the point. The topic is, WHAT DOES GOD SAY...

Not

What does marge think about it.

Thanks for understanding.



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 11:09 PM
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Originally posted by BaastetNoir
well...huh... you asked WHERE IN THE BIBLE and I told you where...lol
Marg, you were the one who asked WHERE DOES THE BIBLE CONDEMN ABORTION, and I gave you THE BIBLICAL COMANDEMENT. "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER"


your right, the bible does say "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER"

lets look at the definion of murder, shall we?

dictionary.com: To kill (another human) unlawfully.

note the "UNLAWFULLY" abortion is not illegal

now some of you all will say "dictionary.com thats not a legit site" so i give you
Websters dictionary: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

again note: "UNLAWFULLY" and again, abortion is not illegal

Light



posted on May, 28 2005 @ 11:59 PM
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So your going to use a bible as a source for the law

and then define that law with secular books?



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 12:25 AM
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Originally posted by lightheaded55
again note: "UNLAWFULLY" and again, abortion is not illegal


Abortion is only legal because the Supreme Court refused to address the issue as whether a state is obligated to protect all human life. They decided they shoudn't at that point in time decide if the fetus was alive. Ergo, did not address that point in the case.


One topic though:

Exd 21: 22-25 speaks of an accidental miscarriage (or early birth).



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 02:18 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
So your going to use a bible as a source for the law

and then define that law with secular books?



no im not going to use the bible as a source for the law, but you are, and if you say your not, then you are contradicting yourself, i use the law as my source for the law, and therefore define that by the means of secular books

Light



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 02:26 AM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by lightheaded55
again note: "UNLAWFULLY" and again, abortion is not illegal


Abortion is only legal because the Supreme Court refused to address the issue as whether a state is obligated to protect all human life. They decided they shoudn't at that point in time decide if the fetus was alive.


REGARDLESS of what their reasoning for keeping it legal, IT IS LEGAL! they obviously had a reason to postpone their desicion, whatever that is, we dont know, and we may never know, but that doesnt matter, what does matter is that, until it is deemed illegal, IT IS LEGAL!

Light

[edit on 05-23-2005 by lightheaded55]



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 07:16 AM
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We are indeed using the bible as the source in this thread.

God says its murder
Why?

God says the baby is alive in the womb.
Taking a life is murder.

Just in case you need specifics...

Exo 21:22 "When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


Murder. Life for life.

So, even if the man made law says murder is legal, it does not make it good. "A rose by any other name...." lol

This is about what God says... not man



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997
We are indeed using the bible as the source in this thread.

God says its murder
Why?

God says the baby is alive in the womb.
Taking a life is murder.

Just in case you need specifics...

Exo 21:22 "When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


It says that if her injury leads to her own death.. it's a life for a life. If she miscarries.. whoever caused it pays a monetary fine as compensation. The fact that eye for an eye isn't applied here should tell you that the fetus' life isn't seen has equal to the mothers.. otherwise the death penalty would be issued as punnishment for the fetus' death.

[edit on 29-5-2005 by riley]



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by jake1997
Exo 21:22 "When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


It says that if her injury leads to her own death.. it's a life for a life. If she miscarries.. whoever caused it pays a monetary fine as compensation. The fact that eye for an eye isn't applied here should tell you that the fetus' life isn't seen has equal to the mothers.. otherwise the death penalty would be issued as punnishment for the fetus' death.

[edit on 29-5-2005 by riley]

Not that I care one way or another what it says, but I think you are interpreting it wrong. It says "if there is no harm". It isn't talking about harm only to the mother here. If someone tries to "get the child to come out", but fails (ie. no harm), then they only need pay a fine. However, if there is harm (to the child or the mother) then it's an eye for an eye.

While I believe that abortion is murder of the child, and thus unacceptable, I don't think it should be outlawed. If the mother will be put in danger if she gives birth, and a c-section is also not possible -to me at least- the mother's life comes first. There are some cases where an abortion is necessary.

However, I don't see why everyone keeps harping on about rape. Yes, I agree, rape is a horrible, horrible thing, but why punish the child for that? Just because the father is evil, does that mean the child must die?

Also, this is off-topic, but I felt I had to address it:


Originally posted by BaastetNoir
If by any chance you are referring to the atrocities donne in the name of Jesus, i suggest you take a look at Israel which has been BOMBARDED my religious muslim fanatics, that wish to DESTROY the Jewish people just because they have a different belief and are of a different race.

That's a very interesting tactic. Someone is attacking a certain dogma, you point to another religion and say "Look at THEM! They kill the infidels!"
The religious muslim fanatics don't "wish to destroy the jewish people", but the opposite may very well be true. The Palestinian people (Muslim and Christian both), however, DO want their land back.


Originally posted by BaastetNoir
..and by the way the Muslim Religion does ASK FOR THE DEATH of all infidels = non-believers.

ummm...no it doesn't.


Originally posted by BaastetNoir
Islam condems women that have donne abortions to be stoned to DEATH ! HOW ABOUT THAT ??? why isnt anyone ranting about that ?

Never heard of this in my life...that's probably why.



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
Not that I care one way or another what it says, but I think you are interpreting it wrong.

Sorry but I don't have the original translation [jake's is one of many.. the word for 'child' usually being 'fruit'] to be certain that you're version is the right one.

It says "if there is no harm". It isn't talking about harm only to the mother here. If someone tries to "get the child to come out", but fails (ie. no harm), then they only need pay a fine.

Wouldn't people just shrug it off and leave it at that if there as no harm done? That doesn't make any sense. Laws were very brutal in those days.. there would have been no point reporting a harmless accident.. or to bother putting into the bible for that matter.

"When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, -miscarriage.

but there is no harm,harm being barren/bleeding to death

the one who hit her shall surely be fined, for loss of pregnancy.

as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Sounds as though the prospective father decides the value of the child.


However, I don't see why everyone keeps harping on about rape

Harping?:shk:I guess if you have never been raped or known anyone personally who's been raped you wouldn't know why people are 'harping' on about it.

Yes, I agree, rape is a horrible, horrible thing, but why punish the child for that? Just because the father is evil, does that mean the child must die?

It would not be about 'punnishing the child'- thats ludicrous and this assumption that it's somehow just vengence on the part of the victim is ignorant. It's about minumalising the trauma of a rape victim, she did not ask to be impregenated and should not be expected to carry it if she is ademently against it.. and neither should she be judged for terminating.

[edit on 29-5-2005 by riley]



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by lightheaded55
REGARDLESS of what their reasoning for keeping it legal, IT IS LEGAL! they obviously had a reason to postpone their desicion, whatever that is, we dont know, and we may never know, but that doesnt matter, what does matter is that, until it is deemed illegal, IT IS LEGAL!


They didn't keep it legal. They overruled a state's rights to define law. Each concern of the state should have been addressed in an objective manner. Overturning Roe vs Wade would not make abortion illegal. It would place the defining law and definitions back into the hands of the state.

We do know the reason for their not addressing the issue, it is in the opinion of the court.

Texas urges that, apart from the Fourteenth Amendment, life begins at conception and is present throughout pregnancy, and that, therefore, the State has a compelling interest in protecting that life from and after conception. We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer.

Two points I would argue regarding the decision:

1. SCOTUS being able to define when life began would be unable to deny the definition given by the state.

2. SCOTUS need not have speculated as to when life begins. They only needed to approach the issue scientific manner. Science is objective, and would have given an answer regardless of one's theological or philosophical views on the matter. One need only ask a human embryologist. The embryo is a human life in early stages of development.


But, you are correct. It is not illegal.


On Topic:

"children come out" could also refer to a premature birth. In which case, any injury would refer to the child as well.



[edit on 29-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by Raphael_UO
"children come out" could also refer to a premature birth. In which case, any injury would refer to the child as well.

As I said earlier- the passage also says 'fruit'.. the word 'children' is an interpritation. It does not say 'born'.. when a child is born in the bible it usually says so.



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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This again, now matter how hard you push it, can only come out the way the bible guides us.

In the bible, children are a blessing.
In the same post that you quoted me on, you left out the other half of the equation in order that you could argue.

God says that the baby is a life while in the womb. God knows you in the womb. God puts His spirit in you while in the womb.

Now lets look at what God says about harming a pregnant woman.



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997

Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Life for life.


First, did not god's son himself say (about): if a man strikes you on one side of your face, do not strike back, instead, turn your other side to him

he is sayin that if a man sins, or strikes, against you, do not sin/hit back, contradicting the "eye for an eye" statement


This is about what God says... not man


ok, ill agree with that...as soon as you do, moses wrote the book of exodus, therefore are you calling moses god? or are you confused as to who wrote "The Second Book of MOSES"????

moses was a man and he wrote the book, therefore he said everything, even if he was "talking" to god, he (a man) wrote the book, not god

Light



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by lightheaded55

Originally posted by jake1997

Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,
Exo 21:24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Life for life.


First, did not god's son himself say (about): if a man strikes you on one side of your face, do not strike back, instead, turn your other side to him

he is sayin that if a man sins, or strikes, against you, do not sin/hit back, contradicting the "eye for an eye" statement


This is about what God says... not man


ok, ill agree with that...as soon as you do, moses wrote the book of exodus, therefore are you calling moses god? or are you confused as to who wrote "The Second Book of MOSES"????

moses was a man and he wrote the book, therefore he said everything, even if he was "talking" to god, he (a man) wrote the book, not god

Light


You sure got the right name.

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,


Who let you in here? Go away.



posted on May, 29 2005 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by riley
As I said earlier- the passage also says 'fruit'.. the word 'children' is an interpritation. It does not say 'born'.. when a child is born in the bible it usually says so.


Actually the word fruit is the interpretation. It keeps the english in the KJV from using redundant terms. "... woman with child so that her child... "


[edit on 29-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Regardless though, the hebrew for "mischief" only requires one to suffer. That could be either physical or mental injury.

[edit on 29-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]




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