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Question for Christains. Abrotion and the bible

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posted on May, 26 2005 @ 03:50 PM
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While searching on another topic, I came across this verse

Ecc 11:5 As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.

My question is,
Do you know more verses that have direct meaning when considered in light of abortion?

Thanks.




posted on May, 26 2005 @ 04:08 PM
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Here's a good one:



"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Jeremiah 1:5



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 04:20 PM
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Here's a few more:

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb? (Job 31:15)

Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb. (Psalms 22:9-10)

For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Thy works, And my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Thy book they were all written, The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalms 139:13-16)

Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone, (Isaiah 44:24)



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
Here's a good one:



"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Jeremiah 1:5



*EDITED FOR CHILDISH REMARK*

If your god "knew you" before you were conceived as is stated above, there are several consequences. All of which are contradictory to your misguided, and frankly uneducated thoughts and beliefs.

If god knows when you will be concieved, that means you must be concieved. Leaving the possibilty of choice out of the question for the parents. In this aspect, there would be no mistakes. Also, that would mean...in the instance of lets just say a RAPE. God knew of the conception ahead of time. He knew ahead of time that the woman would be raped, and he knew by who. Not to mention, he knew the rapist before he was born, and created him anyways. He created this man, who would eventually sin. Commiting the sin that god already knew about ahead of time. Thus, the guy had no choice. So, as your thoughts dictate, he burns in hell. Interesting to think that he never had a choice in the matter...

*edited again*


[edit on 26-5-2005 by Amuk]



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 07:12 PM
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seapeople

Stay on topic. If you wish to bash christians, please do it in another thread, or somehow find a way to include the topic in your bash.

The only answer needed to your rambling is that God knows the future. That is all thats needed.

Listen
Think
Speak
In that order.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 07:17 PM
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Seapeople, you are so full of vitriol and hatred, it would really suck to be you!

The purpose of this thread was to provide Biblical quotes regarding abortion, which is what I did. If you want to call me a bonehead for participating according to the T&C of this site while you flout them, so be it. But I think it's clear who the ignorant one here is.

[edit on 5/27/2005 by djohnsto77]



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 07:31 PM
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Personal attacks will stop NOW.



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 07:32 PM
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None of the verse has anything to do with abortion but is refering to the conception and birth of the christ.

It's nothing in the bible that condemn abortion or refer to abortion directly, but it's references in the bible about spilling men's seed as a sin.

In other words masturbation as a sin.

[edit on 26-5-2005 by marg6043]



posted on May, 26 2005 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
If god knows when you will be concieved, that means you must be concieved. Leaving the possibilty of choice out of the question for the parents. In this aspect, there would be no mistakes. Also, that would mean...in the instance of lets just say a RAPE. God knew of the conception ahead of time. He knew ahead of time that the woman would be raped, and he knew by who. Not to mention, he knew the rapist before he was born, and created him anyways. He created this man, who would eventually sin. Commiting the sin that god already knew about ahead of time. Thus, the guy had no choice. So, as your thoughts dictate, he burns in hell. Interesting to think that he never had a choice in the matter...


Alas, now you have opened the can of omniscience. He knows all, yet gave us free will. How can he know the future if he has given us free will?

I apologize, Jake, for going off topic, but I'm going to address this question as I currently understand it. It could absloutly change, I'm am but a student. Seapeople, despite what you believe about me, I do not shirk the tough questions. I may not know the answer when I get the question, but I seek an answer to any question unanswered. If I am wrong about Christianity, I want to know. If I'm wrong about this, I want to stop wasting my time worshipping a God who doesn't exist. However, obviously, to date I have not heard, read, or experienced anything to contradict my faith.

Omniscience. We have free will. God knows all. How the heck can that work? As I understand it, God has a plan for each of us. He has a plan for where He wants us to be and when, knowing the plans of others. Yet, because we have free will, we are presented with the option of deviating from this plan. For instance, as I'm driving home from work on interstate 94 and see someone on the side of the road, I make the decision on what to do, but God gives me the opportunity. I can drive past, or I can pull over. God knows this. That may be my future wife or best friend sitting in their car. Yet, if I choose to drive on, that path never happens. Yet, God can compensate, and already has. He has a path which he would like us to walk. I think of it as that Outrun map from the old Sega Master System. We are presented with crossroads where we choose to be closer to God, or to move away. I myself spent most of my life moving away, and am now headed in the opposite direction, although I do take the wrong path at times. If God knows all, it would mean he is aware of all the decisions we may make when presented with a crossroad. The Bible states we will never be presented with a spiritual situation in which we are not strong enough to walk the right path. However, we, as humans, like to take the path of least resistance, which is not always what God wants. Yet, he knows that that is a possiblility, and already has a plan to address it.

So, in the case of the rapist you mentioned, that rapist was faced with decision after decision over the course of his life, and chose the life he leads. The woman raped was where she was for a reason, too. When that dude who killed the judge and other folks went into that womans home several weeks back and took her hostage, she was faced with a decision, too. She walked towards God, instead of away. I'm not saying every rape victim had a choice in the matter, there are innocent victims in this world. It's too bad, but it's the price which must be paid for free will. America sees a very, very small aspect of this with our freedom of speach laws. Without them, the KKK would not be allowed to exist, yet we keep them because we believe that people should be able to express their opinions. However, freedom of speach claims innocent lives. The same is true for free will. That woman didn't have anything to do with the rape, but afterwards, she is presented with one of those crossroads if she finds she's pregnant.

Personally, I don't have a problem with abortion in cases of rape and incest. I do not have any scriptural basis for this, though. I just can't imagine what kind of life the child and the mother would live when, every time the mother looked at her child, she was reminded of that awful event.

Man, seriously, though, why attack someone personally because they believe with all of their hearts and minds something? You believe they're wrong, they believe they're right. It is, as far as you're concerned, a crutch people use to get through life. Would you steal a crutch from a cripple? Then why would you do so to a Christian?



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 07:25 AM
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marge

When we say 'about abortion' no means that abortion was on the mind of God when he wrote it.

We mean

These verses have a bearing for christians when the topic of abortion is being discussed. One of the arguments for abortion is that the baby is just a lump of flesh while inside the mother.
These verses show that God says otherwise. This means, just as we always knew anyway, that abortion is murder.
Jesus was very protective of children, and Im sure it extends to this situation.

Back in the OT the pagans had abortion. They usually performed them between 10 and 19 months after conception.
Just like today, the life of the baby was aborted.

Now days, as the Terry Shivo case showed us, we can even abort the life of the lame. Its all leading up to something.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by jake1997

Back in the OT the pagans had abortion. They usually performed them between 10 and 19 months after conception.


I take it you are reffering to infanticide?



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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Your quote cut off one line too soon.

Yes



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Your quote cut off one line too soon.

Yes

Infantacide is killing an infant.. abortion is aborting a pregnancy.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by jake1997
Your quote cut off one line too soon.

Yes

Infantacide is killing an infant.. abortion is aborting a pregnancy.



So it depends on when you consider the child to be alive. If you consider it to be alive at the first heartbeat, or when the fetus first responds to pain, then abortion would be considered infantsacide. If you believe life doesn't begin until the child takes its first breath, then its aborting an unwanted growth. I suspect Jake1997, like myself, considers the child alive before birth.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by jake1997
Your quote cut off one line too soon.

Yes

Infantacide is killing an infant.. abortion is aborting a pregnancy.



So it depends on when you consider the child to be alive. If you consider it to be alive at the first heartbeat, or when the fetus first responds to pain, then abortion would be considered infantsacide.

I didn't say it wasn't alive.
An infant is an infant. A pregnancy is a pregnancy.. aborting a pregnancy is abortion.. killing an infant is infantacide. Trying to swap terminologies is an obvious attempt [and atypical prolife tactic] to sidestep the fact that the fetus is inside the mother's body and pretend it's not relevent to the issue.

If you believe life doesn't begin until the child takes its first breath, then its aborting an unwanted growth. I suspect Jake1997, like myself, considers the child alive before birth.

Thats fair enough.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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Ancient people understanding nature and the balance between productivity and just been a burden to the rest of the tribes used to practice infanticide.

The reason was not because they wanted to kill babies but as you know was to ensure that the strong ones had a better chance to survive.

In other worlds the weak was let to die alone.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 01:24 PM
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What's interesting and I'm suprised none of the pro-choicers have mentioned it, is the ancient Jewish census. They only counted babies a month after they were born. Before that, they didn't count as people as far as the census goes. I was suprised to find a strong arguement from a religious stance for pro-choice, or rather that abortion isn't condemned by God. It's pretty interesting, my stance may have to change. Not from being pro-life to pro-choice, but rather remove the religious implications. I still find it to be a deplorable and despicable practice. I have no idea how a doctor could allow a child to be partly born, then as the head begins to emerge, crush it, suck out the brains and dump the body. Sick.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 01:44 PM
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I have no idea how a doctor could allow a child to be partly born, then as the head begins to emerge, crush it, suck out the brains and dump the body. Sick.

I thought the same.. and wanted to be sure I judged correctly so researched.. there were two terminal deformaties I found where there wasn't any option. The 1st where the fetus' head was the size of a watermelon and could not be safely removed through incision.. the other where the fetus' insides [stomach, intestines etc.] formed outside of it's stomach cavity.. creating the need for it to be delivered vaginally with the sack intact so it's organs weren't left inside the uterus.
I also discovered that there a some things I'd prefer not knowing.

[edit on 27-5-2005 by riley]



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 01:48 PM
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Well the rate of infantile death in ancient times was very high and still is in third world countries.

In nations like India they believe that the soul did not enter the body until later on after birth.

Now even when I was a child back home infantile death was still high and I remember that it was a cause of celebration and not sorrow to have a baby die for the traditions of our natives in the Island.

The believe that a child was pure and not expose to sin so he would be in haven with not a problem.

The Catholic church fought for years to take away this native tradition from the Island but they never were able to do it.



posted on May, 27 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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thanks for covering that. You hit it on the nose.

That first verse I showed should have been enough to show ..

The christian God tells us the baby is alive in the womb. Its a baby. I dont care if you call it spring cleaning...its still murder.
Its aborting the life
Its terminating the life

The only reason they use such terms is to hide the evilness of it all.


The ancients in the mideast practiced what you call infantcide, but not in the general way it was mentioned here.

The main two gods worshiped back then were the sex goddess and sun god.
The sex goddess took many names as did the sungod, a few of them are

Venus, Shing moo, Isis, Astarte, oester, Aphrodite, madonna, semerimis,

sungod names were Nimrod, Baal, Molech, Osiris, Zeus, Jupiter, Odin,

The 'church services' of the sex goddess were orgies. In ancient babylon all of the women had to serve at least on tour in the her temple. They would sit there and wait until a man came by to donate' to the goddess...and then the women would show the man the goddesss gratitude.

As you can imagine, there were consequences. We call them babies.

Luckily there was a ready solution. The sungod loved flesh. The people would take the unwanted baby and kindle the alter of baal. They would then drop the baby into the fire...and the problem is gone.
This is all in the OT of the bible, and is also backed up with history.

Today our society worships sex. Turn on TV if you doubt. That worship brings consequences.
Do you know what they do with the babies at the abortion clinics? They burn them to ash.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.



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