Subs vs Carriers, a warning.

China's submarines and sub fleet will only get better with time and experience ..all across the board. Any nation with good leadership willl learn from mistakes and problems and push foreward. The automobiles we drive today are the result of years and years of less effecient designs..even some horrible designs. So too it is with military equipment.
As I stated in other boards...here it is Leadership that will make the difference. Not foolish politics...a lesson from history that we Americans are from time to time wont to forget at a horrible price.

Thanks,
Orangetom

i dont get what your trying to say.? china had nuke subs or had bad ones.?

I’m trying to say that instead of panicking and trying to build our own AIP subs we should just wait as china is shifting from DE or AIP to nuclear, all of their new and advanced subs are nuclear.

I have been musing on the article on Page one of this board.

The article has in it this statement ...

Our defense strategists' warnings about the growth of China's fleet of 62 diesel- or electric-powered submarines have been received with an alarming lack of concern. So much so that our Navy's submarine base at Groton, Conn., once known as "the submarine capital of the world," is high on the list of bases to be closed. This also will put the Electric Boat Co. in jeopardy. It once manufactured some of America's best and most innovative undersea craft.

Electric Boat is one of only two yards in America capable of building nuclear submarines. The very name harkens back to the days when submarines were diesel electric. The other shipyard is Newport News Shipbuilding in Newport News, Virginia.
Very few shipyards..period..have the level of nuclear license necessary to conduct this type of work and most yards dont want it. The politics of handling and storing the necessary equipment to support this kind of work are staggering. Many shipyards have nuclear license levels allowing them to handle nuclear sources used in non distructive testing...X raying. it is quite another set of problems to handle actual nuclear fuel rods. Most shipyards just dont want the complications.
The main problem with Electric Boat is that her only product is in fact submarines. Not so with Newport News. In Newport News they are diversified into Aircraft Carriers as well. Electric Boat on the other hand..has people coming to work for them from several states around. This means that they have the influence of senators and congressmen from more states going to bat for them than does Newport News.
The Navy base at Groton may be closing or under threat of closing but I dont think it will sink Electric Boat. Their political clout in the senate and house is considerable.
Just additional information for you folks.

Thanks,
Orangetom

In the letter they sent to President Bush on Tuesday, Reps. Joe Barton and Ralph Hall alluded to "highly advanced technologies" that Unocal and other energy companies use to drill for oil and natural gas that could also be used for military purposes.

Article

I saw an interview with I believe it was T. Bone Pickins in which he stated that the technology that oil companies use to map the ocean surface could be of great benifit to the chinese submarine warfare capabilities.

Originally posted by Zaphod58

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
Well, the subs are wery quiet and they have a nice advantage even though the carrier propably has planes made for "sub-destroying"... like the J-3...

Actually it's the S-3 Viking. Great platform for the mission.

Hasn't the Viking ASW jet been withdrawn from service?

No, psteel.
According to this source, they will be around till 2015.

Much older than the Hawkeyes are the S-3B Vikings, with an average age of about 21 years. All were produced in a high-rate production run in the 1970s. The oldest Vikings are now 25 years old. The Navy plans to keep the 113-strong Viking inventory around until about 2015, which is about when the aircraft's service-life limits begin to be reached.

The article also mentions that the Viking has been upgraded to carry AGM-84 Harpoon missiles.

The third support aircraft is the S-3B Viking, a plane that in the past has been assigned primarily to antisubmarine warfare (ASW) missions, but now carries AGM-84 Harpoon missiles and bombs to strike enemy ships and is also heavily engaged as an aerial tanker for other carrier aircraft. (The ES-3A Shadow signals intelligence collection aircraft served a vital role this year in the skies over Iraq and Kosovo, but is scheduled to be retired this summer.)

Is CSA the Answer?

Also mentioned here:
The Lockheed S-3 Viking

And here with a variance of retire date, 2010.
S-3B VIKING MULTI-ROLE CARRIER-BASED AIRCRAFT, USA






seekerof

intresting point you bring up there about China making a bid on a large oil company.

I just finished a intresting book by Michael T Klare titled "Resource Wars." In his book Michael Klare describes some intrersting things about the coming struggle for energy resources.
Other than the obvious...supporting industry the one which startled me was food production. If the Oil goes so too does food production. What is not often thought about is the number of nations who produce and export food to other countrys, particularly the orient. We are talking about starvation here ...of billions.
Potable water is another resource which is becoming in short supply in the face of rising populations. Historically water is the resources fought over...most notably. Droughts have had alot to do with this.
It is my opinion that China is looking and planning foreward to gain some kind of hedge against competition In the energy buisness. China has no large sources of oil or energy to feed her growing populations and industries. This is going to be core to China's survival. The ultimate question is how far will China war in the end to get the resources she needs
The information in Michael T. Klare's book Resource Wars was combined with another intresting book titled "Hubbert's Peak" by Kenneth S. Deffeyes. This book is about a oil gephysicist who predicted that United States oil production would peak out some time in the 1970s and go down hill from there. This prediction was done about 1956. It appears that only recently have the energy departments and companys taken this seriously.
Combining the information in these two books you are looking at a resource war soon for energy among the industrialized nations with the not so industrialized nations caught in between. Early phases of it have already started.

Thanks,
Orangetom

orangetom1999, I watched a nova movie that indicated that Chinahas lost an estimated harvest of grains that equals the size of Canadas yearly harvest due to soil erosion urban development etc.... The Chinese will have to really more and more on the US for its grain consumption.

These are interesting times we live in. Mother earth may be stretched to far to support all of humankind and what better way to reduce the population than by war. In the natural world it is called natural selection. Man always reaches out and kills other men before it gets to that point. right now I believe everyone is buying the arms it wants before they engage in warfare that everyone knows is coming. Sorry for getting off topic.

Barring an economic collapse, China soon will be forced to turn to the world market for massive imports of 30, 40, or 50 million tons per year. This comes at a time when world grain stocks are at their lowest level in 30 years and when U.S. farmers are losing irrigation water to aquifer depletion and to cities. Among other things, this means that the surplus world grain production capacity and cheap food of the last half-century may soon be history. Higher food prices could become a permanent part of the economic landscape. Adjusting to these higher food prices could become a dominant preoccupation of governments in the years ahead.

When China turns to the world market, it will necessarily turn to the United States, which controls nearly half of world grain exports. This presents an unprecedented geopolitical situation in which 1.3 billion Chinese consumers who have a $120-billion trade surplus with the United States—enough to buy the entire U.S. grain harvest twice over—will compete with Americans for U.S. food, likely driving up food prices for the United States and the world.

Article

If China is literally starving, then it would make Australia an even more attractive target, as Australia, in addition to its mineral wealth, has a massive grain harvest which it exports around the world every year.

For example, exports of grain from Western Australia alone feed around 100 million people worldwide, apparently.

Unfortunately, when famine hits China it's on a truly massive scale; I think around 20 million died in their last major famine in the early 60's, if I'm not mistaken.

yeah that makes sense that they are building a 2mile long dam but it might have been a very foolish thing too, if it ever fails that a lot of water to wipe out the major food production area, the will give china millions and millions of gallons of water, keeping it for themselves maybe selling it to the world.

But, I doubt that the EU or the Global Group will allow that to happen!

Hundred years ago there was a war between Nippon and Russia the result of which was a resource and arms race that spread like wild fire. 100 years pass war both economic and militarial is raging agian, the Claymore rattling is deafing much akin to 100 years ago. The resource was bat and bird poop that was being collected in chile, now its oil in and off the coast of Asia.

4th of July, 2005 I sit here as a veteran with a heavy heart, the feeling that the same fever is spreading across the globe that was spreading back then caused by a lack of resources, propaganda and nationalism all of which fed the arms race in 1905. Times have changed but the feelings are the same.

1890 was known as the gay 90's, there was a boom in the 1990's much like the earlier boom wierd how it kinda repeated itself.

Only have a couple of minutes before I must shove off. Thanks for your post. I missed that program but look foreward to catching it some time soon as I am sure it will be rerun again. I had not heard that information about China. Most of the starvation news we get here is out of Africa which seems to be sliding slowly but steadly down hill and they are getting ready for massive handouts or guilt trips through the UN.
I will keep a watch out for what you are describing.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Here is the show i was talking about:

www.pbs.org...

This show was a real eye opener for me.

Originally posted by Char2c35t
yeah that makes sense that they are building a 2mile long dam but it might have been a very foolish thing too, if it ever fails that a lot of water to wipe out the major food production area, the will give china millions and millions of gallons of water, keeping it for themselves maybe selling it to the world.

But, I doubt that the EU or the Global Group will allow that to happen!

Hundred years ago there was a war between Nippon and Russia the result of which was a resource and arms race that spread like wild fire. 100 years pass war both economic and militarial is raging agian, the Claymore rattling is deafing much akin to 100 years ago. The resource was bat and bird poop that was being collected in chile, now its oil in and off the coast of Asia.

4th of July, 2005 I sit here as a veteran with a heavy heart, the feeling that the same fever is spreading across the globe that was spreading back then caused by a lack of resources, propaganda and nationalism all of which fed the arms race in 1905. Times have changed but the feelings are the same.

1890 was known as the gay 90's, there was a boom in the 1990's much like the earlier boom wierd how it kinda repeated itself.

Char2c35t,

I thank you for your service, and appreciate your unique perspective on the realpolitik of the world today.

I think your assessment is correct. It seems that the 'great game' is on again, albeit for differenct resource based reasons this time.

We can only hope that the leaders of the worlds great powers do everything they can to avoid any kind of open conflict from occurring - for all of our sakes.

cheers & thanks
JamesinOz

Cryptorsa,
Thanks for the article and the link. I have bookmarked both. Very intresting. We dont often think of food as a weapon or tool in diplomacy but it most certainly is.

Thanks again,
Orangetom

thanks james

yeah i wish this resource crisis would bring people together rather than do a mad max to them, as a people humans are at the point that we need to start thinking for bettering humanity rather than just the rich of all nations. A resource war would drain more resources than replace the lost resource if we are to survive as a people of Terra then we must look to the stars to find the resources that we need becuase resources wars will only bring the destruction of our people Terrians, lets rise above neucon 20th century ideals.

The resources we find up there will only help replace the resources down here.

here is to peace and space exploration aka Star Trek future or maybe Gene Rodenberry was a prophet, who knows?

THe human of Terra didnt come together till after a nuke hot war and the leftovers had fought themself till nearly bothsides were wipped out. I hope it doesnt come to this but maybe thats what it would take for a stupid and foolish species like ourselves.

Its a very nice sentiment. Yes I agree.

Just wondering if you actually read much history. Especially concerning the logic and reason of men. Wise Men. Reasonable men and the solutions they have historically in dealing with situations like the ones described concerning resource wars??

The reason I ask this ..is that everything I see from logical reasonable wise men concerning a historical standpoint ...is population control. I will leave the understanding of this to you!!

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I’m trying to say that instead of panicking and trying to build our own AIP subs we should just wait as china is shifting from DE or AIP to nuclear, all of their new and advanced subs are nuclear.

Then why are they still accepting Kilo class subs from Russia?

might makes right, the weak will fail the best will rise to the top, if you lack resource just steal them from someone else or join with another group that has a resource you need and to the viktor goes the spoils. The all purifying fire of war is the ulimate test of a group or nation, the greatest forum to test the merit, skill and divine provication of a people.

all of those statements have been from "wise" intelligent people threw out history.

the 4 horsemen anyone?

I didnt say might makes right was the correct course. I was trying to ask what happens in history.

On the other hand...what buisness does any nation have going through any intermediary to get the production from another nation ..gratis?? You know ..like a entitlement?? In some cultures this would be called Robbery! Fraud! Stealing! Does Gene Rodenberry cover this???

This is obviously the route someone is trying to take the United States. I am waiting for the Nation of Zimbabwe to reach through the UN with its hands out for goodies as a entitlement. And if it doesnt get it as expected, to use the UN and the UN media to heap guilt trips/victimization on those nations who have had enough of the UN. In summation...entitlements.

I have news for you Char2c35t nature herself will settle this without war or conflict. In a far more cruel and viscious way than men have ever dreamed. This too has happened in the records of history.

Wise men and intelligence has often caused more problems than they have solved ..no matter what course they choose to take. Quite a dilemma. Take from someone else by force to take care of others or war by force???
Which logical reasonable intelligent way do you think will happen??

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Char2c35t
thanks james

yeah i wish this resource crisis would bring people together rather than do a mad max to them, as a people humans are at the point that we need to start thinking for bettering humanity rather than just the rich of all nations. A resource war would drain more resources than replace the lost resource if we are to survive as a people of Terra then we must look to the stars to find the resources that we need becuase resources wars will only bring the destruction of our people Terrians, lets rise above neucon 20th century ideals.

The resources we find up there will only help replace the resources down here.

here is to peace and space exploration aka Star Trek future or maybe Gene Rodenberry was a prophet, who knows?

THe human of Terra didnt come together till after a nuke hot war and the leftovers had fought themself till nearly bothsides were wipped out. I hope it doesnt come to this but maybe thats what it would take for a stupid and foolish species like ourselves.

no worries Char2c35t,

The quality and accuracy of information and analysis you get from vets, those serving, and those working in the defence industry is in stark contrast to the rest of us armchair enthusiasts on these boards, whose exposure to the reality of the issues we're talking about here doesn't extend beyond our lounge rooms! lol

Thankyou again for your input Char2c35t,

cheers
James