Whats The Deal With Subz? (from ATSNN)

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posted on May, 17 2005 @ 05:06 AM
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Lately i've been the recipient of an increasing amount of criticism from members of ATS who object to my views. I've been accused of being "biased", full of "rhetoric" and anti-American. I want to explain my side of the story in an effort to defuse further U2U's and abusive criticism.
 


Why I post on ATSNN

The major reason I was attracted to ATS and then its News section is due to my passionate views on current affairs. My views are of an alternative nature and my choice of this board reflects that.


from the ATSNN main page
Internet's most respected source for discussion on alternative topics.


If I wanted to tow the line of mainstream media which I class as tainted due to its commerical nature I would of joined yahoo! news forums.

Am I Anti-American?

Ive been accused quite often of being anti-American with my posts. I want to categorically state now that im not anti-American. My favourite band is the Chicago outfit, The Smashing Pumpkins, some of my favourite T.V shows are American, my favourite movies are all American etc.

I happen to also be a WW2 buff and hold the efforts and actions of American soldiers in that war with the deepest respect. I believe the world should never forget the sacrifices of the United States in ridding the World of Nazism.

Where my pro-American attitudes abrubtly end are with regards to the Bush Adminstration. It doesnt necessarily extend to the greater American Government. I happen to admire ex-President Clinton and agree with his actions to this date.

So please, enough with the anti-US criticism leveled at me, its just not true.

Am I biased?

You bet, I know the tag line for ATSNN is "Deny bias" but I defy any one to claim they are not biased.

I think trying to deny bias on a discussion board is doomed to failure. You'd sooner be able to "Deny Grammar" or "Deny Opinions", its just unrealistic.

I dont find bias the problem, the board is for discussing and countering other peoples bias. I dont try to supress any ones views, opposing or not, in fact I enjoy reading posts I disagree with as it gives me a chance to show them why I think their bias is incorrect.

Am I full of rhetoric?

Rhetoric has a negative connotation in todays media, as does "bias" and "agenda". Its interesting to see the real definition of the word "rhetoric".

Rhetoric:
- Skill in using language effectively and persuasively.
- The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.
- Verbal communication; discourse

So really posting rhetoric is something everyone is guilty of. In fact people should aspire to it.

Do I have an agenda?

Of course I do, everyone has an agenda. If youre adhering to the purpose of this board, Denying ignorance, then that is an agenda.

Having an agenda is not the issue, its the content of your agenda that should be the issue.

What is my agenda?

As mentioned earlier, I appreciate the good parts of the United States. I also have a very deep respect for the United States contribution in WW2. This spurs my agenda of trying to express to as many Americans as I can just how wrong Bush's administration is steering America. A country that is capable of such good yet is being currently lead for all the wrong reasons.

I am not alone in my views on the Bush administration and to my knowledge im entitled to my view on it.

Are all my posts anti-Bush?

Not all but most.

The United States is a self confessed super power with complete global reach. The United States is a part, in some extent, of virtually all international affairs. So the fact that I can discuss the United States involvement in most things is just logical.

If a thread was talking about the mating habits of Cane toads or something of equal nature of course any anti-Bush rhetoric from me would be unacceptable. However, I choose the threads and news stories I post to reflect my stated agenda. I want to talk about how wrong I think the Bush administration is and the threads im involved with reflect that.

To my knowledge I dont think im breaking any rules with my actions in that respect. If I am asked by site staff to change my ways then obviously I will, but until then I expect my critics to counter my claims rather than attempt to silence me because they are "tired" and "bored" of reading my posts.

Do I respect views contrary to my own?

You bet I do, so much so that I feel the need to correct any falsehoods I see in them. You will never hear me try to silence right-wingers or pro-Bush posters as I personally feel their errors become self-evident whenever they do.

As such I expect my own views to be equally respected by those who disagree with me. If my posts are backed up with facts and are civil and logical then I expect people to attack the points rather than the poster.

Why did I post this Op/Ed?

It wasnt for some vain, egotistical reasons. It was to clarify my posts and where they are coming from. I happen to be transparent in my agenda rather than hiding it like most automatically do. This Op/Ed is my attempt at defusing further confrontations with people who are my polar opposites such as this:


from a U2U sent to me by a prominent ATS member

Your bias is noted. Not good for the site.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Don't play the "You're biased" card. I'm not American, or Brit.

Your bias is SO obvious as to be stenchful.


Attack my points if you feel so strongly about it. But please dont try and silence me because you disagree with me or are tired of my views. If this board is to be full of "yes men" and people who refrain from posting their views as that inevitably reveals their inescapable "bias" then we'll all be poorer for it.

I also recieve many U2U's in support of my efforts in taking on the ever pervasive "official" American government line. The likes of Reuters and AP will not contradict it so I feel a duty to put forth my alternative take on them, based on the facts, as illustrated by the " discussion on alternative topics" paragraph on the main ATSNN page.

Thanks for reading and I hope im transparent enough and less offensive to the (large) right-wing contingent on this board.

[edit on 17/5/05 by subz]




posted on May, 17 2005 @ 05:14 AM
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Woot, first time i've seen something like this happen!!

The responses should be interesting.



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 05:34 AM
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Who are you?


FILLING TEXT.



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 06:02 AM
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subz,
I voted no on this not for the issue that you are addressing but that it is not "news".
Yes, I agree that there is an issue boiling here where if you do not toe the party line you get zapped. I would love to see a true response from those on high on this issue.
There is more but, I am fairly sure that this will get sent to the trash bin so I won't waste the time



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 06:05 AM
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posted on May, 17 2005 @ 06:12 AM
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I dont for one second expect this Op/Ed piece to get voted up, I really dont. I just wanted a public place to express my motivations.

There is no other public means of addressing the issues I posted in the Op/Ed and U2U's will not prevent a further deterioration between myself and a number of ATS members. Confrontation is the furthest thing from my aims and the last thing I want to do is lessen the quality of posts in this valuable forum.

Starting a thread thats devoted to defusing any criticism leveled at me was my attempt to localise the quite large amounts of criticism. Rather than continue to have it included in every single thread I post in, which is currently the case.

Atleast with this Op/Ed i've authoured, any criticisms with my posts have a home to reach me. Hopefully they will be posted here so as not to detract from other threads.

[edit on 17/5/05 by subz]



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 06:27 AM
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Actually,
You could have started the thread in Board Questions & Business



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 06:33 AM
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Oh of course, thanks for that Kenshiro. That would of been a more appropriate location for this post



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 06:34 AM
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Actually you could have not started the thread at all - and especially not in ATSNN. But, whatever.

The member who sent the u2u apparently felt passionate enough about offering their unsolicited opinion to you to act on it. And though I don't agree with what they said - because to imply your bias will kill anything on this board is to place one heck of a strong kung fu on a single member's opinion - they did act on their passion in the appropriate manner. They sent you a private communication.

For the sake of the board, it would have been nice had you responded in private as well! Either to initiate a dialogue in which you could have come to some compromise - or simply to tell that member to shove their unsolicited opinion where the sun doesn't shine - whichever path, short of threatening evil deeds on them, you would have been within your rights in your response, and it would not have been a big hulla-bulloo - on ATSNN.



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 06:46 AM
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Valhall, you misunderstand the whole idea of this thread.

Threads seem to be devolving into bickering at an alarming rate from all sorts of ring-wingers who object to my relentless criticism of the Bush administration. Posting U2U's is not going to prevent that, I do not know who is going to start flaming me in the threads before they do it. This was a preventative post rather than a reprisal.

Youre right that I could of U2U'd the ones flaming me or criticising me but as can be seen by the length of my Op/Ed I couldnt express myself fully in that medium.



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 06:52 AM
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subz,

But we also go through periods of time where threads decay into bickering because of liberals attacking the views of righties.

We also go through periods of time where threads decay into bickering because of atheists attacking the views of *insert religion here*.

We also go through periods of time where threads decay into bickering because of *insert religion here* attacking the views of *insert religion here*.



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 07:03 AM
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Would you like it moved now Subz, or left where it is but kicked from voting, or just let it go? [EDIT: nevermind
]

Only reason I ask is that you've expressed some interest in another location, but I'd also like to request people consider the topic here from a general perspective as would relate to any ATSNN contributor and not just dwell on location, or mishandling or a particular personality alone.

There's a bigger issue here we could all stand to consider. Whether anyone agrees with the tact or not, subz has provided a willing victim for evidenciary discussion on related problems with news submissions (and now) OP/ED's alike.

[edit on 17-5-2005 by RANT]



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 07:10 AM
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RANT,
I actually think this thread would be better suited for Board Questions & Business than BTS as it is dealing with board issues



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 07:15 AM
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Thanks for the consideration RANT. I agree there are wider implications of this piece in that it doesnt just concern me or liberals but all forms of expression and ideas.

Demonizing agendas and trying to combat bias are only circular arguments and bound for trouble. If people can get a better understanding of other peoples viewpoints and what motivates us as well as quite frankly what motivates themselves, the better.

[edit on 17/5/05 by subz]



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 07:30 AM
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Subz, considering your current concerns, you might want to consider putting your .02 in here.



posted on May, 17 2005 @ 07:40 AM
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Well I voted yes, it's as valid an op/ed as any others. Don't know what good it's going to do you, if you take the unpopular view on contraversial topics you can't expect to get flowers delivered to your mailbox.


If you don't live in the US, your audience is going to be more sensitive about your opinions - national pride mostly and people can get ugly when you flip that switch. There's not much you can do except expect it and mail them back a big smiley face when it happens..



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:12 PM
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mythatsabigprobe, when you start getting abusive U2U's from moderators and you are clearly not breaking the T&C its a bit scary. I felt the need to try and clear the air a little as I was copping way too much flak for my opinions.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 05:54 PM
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HEck at least u got it in a u2u. how would like a mod calling u ignorant on a thread. (thus the change in my mood)



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 06:14 PM
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huh? Did i say that they said I was ignorant? They were complaining about my "bias". Thats a bit different to being ignorant dont you think? And I stated before bias is not the problem and to claim you are not biased is a complete load of trash.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 06:42 PM
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sorry, you misunderstood me. i mean the comment was directed at yours truely(me)

[edit on 18-5-2005 by kenshiro2012]





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