Raptors Fatal Flaw

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posted on May, 18 2005 @ 06:23 AM
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Originally posted by centurion1211

img223.exs.cx...

Am I the only one that looked at the pictures of the PAK-FA and thought it's really just an attempted copy of the F22? Clearly, there are more similarities than differences.

Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery.


Actually the PAK-FA is a development of the SU-47 Berkut :

That it looks like the F-22 is nothing but mismatched co-incidence.
Think about it ... when did Russia get their hands on the F-22 to copy it ?







THE PAK_FA :





Infact , its the USA that copied Nazi airplane designs to make the B-2 :



These are moderately sized pics. I hope seekerof dose'nt mind them.



[edit on 18-5-2005 by Stealth Spy]




posted on May, 18 2005 @ 07:16 AM
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the PAK-FA looks a lot like the f-22

hard to compare on side angle







posted on May, 18 2005 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Infact , its the USA that copied Nazi airplane designs to make the B-2 :




So you know this to be "fact"?

Here's a little history on the flying wing design.

Northrop
In 1929 Jack Northrop produced the X-216H which was a refined flying-wing concept and led to the first successful all-wing design, the N1M "Flying Jeep". First flown in 1940, the N1M made over 200 flights before being retired in 1941.

Horten
the Horten brothers first glider called the Horten Ho I, was first flight tested at Bonn-Hagelar in July 1933. This glider opened the way for other models, including the Ho IV with a high aspect ratio wing of 24 meters in span, as well as their Ho III that soared to 7000 meters in 1938.

Origins
Is it possible that 2 individual companies came up with this concept around the same time without input from the other?
According to Jack Northrop's biography, Jack became convinced as early as 1923 that the limit had been reached in conventional airplane design development. He felt that the next logical step was an all-wing aircraft which would do away with the drag-producing fuselage and tail. The entire airframe would create lift and significantly increase overall performance. This was a concept native to Northrop's aircraft development and never acknowledged by either the Horten's or Northrop to have been a copied concept.

How the B-2's shape came to be
Designer of Northrop's B-2 (Irv Waaland) said that the B-2 originated on Northrop's ATB drawing boards after 6 weeks of design analysis to meet the requirement of both stealth, heavy lift capabilities and low altitude penetration, which not only disassociates Northrop's B-2 from the Horten designs but also from the earlier Northrop flying wing designs.

Some aerospace enthusiasts may find this a hard to believe seeing the similarities of Jack Northrop's and the Horten brothers flying wing concepts and the B-2 bomber.

Here's a fact for you; Northrop's original concept of the B-2 was actually diamond shaped, but it underwent a major re-design to the now familiar bat-shape due to a change in USAF mission requirements from high altitude ingress to low altitude ingress.

Sources:
www.mucheswarbirds.com...
aerostories.free.fr...
An ATS post by Intelgurl - Feb. 2004
"NORTHROP B-2 STEALTH BOMBER" by Jay Miller



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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Read this : www.fiddlersgreen.net...

and this pub131.ezboard.com...

America has destroyed most of the evidence though


Any way here is another pic :





Also, America went to space and the moon only and solely because of captured Nazi scientists. Same is the case with Russia too.

read all the pages : liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov...

America got a real headstart in tech from Nazi black projects and lots of money to finance it from recovered Nazi gold, valueables.

Stealth too was concetualised by the Nazis and was taken by America.
I wont be surprised if the F-22 was a nazi dark project too.

The real credit should go to the Nazis. We should all stickthis on all our walls and pray and thank him everyday for all that he has given to the human kind.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

The real credit should go to the Nazis. We should all stickthis on all our walls and pray and thank him everyday for all that he has given to the human kind.


Please tell me that this is just an attempt at humor or sarcasm, and that I am getting old and missed the joke...........



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by Pyros

Originally posted by Stealth Spy

The real credit should go to the Nazis. We should all stickthis on all our walls and pray and thank him everyday for all that he has given to the human kind.


Please tell me that this is just an attempt at humor or sarcasm, and that I am getting old and missed the joke...........


Yeah...Yeah only sarcasm there. I was getting a bit pissed off when the folks started painting a picture of an invensible america forgetting how she got her tech and money.

nothing serious. no offence.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy


Also, America went to space and the moon only and solely because of captured Nazi scientists. Same is the case with Russia too.



Actually, thats a lie. You use the word "captured" and its simply not true. The USA did aquire a bunch of Nazi scientists, but most were very willing particpiants and detested Hitlers use of thier science. Its funny how you twist truth to deffend your incorrect statments regarding the flying wing.

The USA didnt do everything first, but they absolutly did the flying wing fist. Period



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Read this : www.fiddlersgreen.net...

and this pub131.ezboard.com...

America has destroyed most of the evidence though




OK dude, let me get this straight.
The comments, unverified and unsubstantiated claims of a nazi tech enthusiast on some obscure web forum is supposed to carry the same weight and authority as a published Northrop biography and a published history of of the B-2's development?

I guess slipping in the reference to "black projects" is supposed to create an air of mystery sufficient enough so that we are not to believe these published accounts even though they have countless references, quotes, interviews and data from readily available and verifiable sources.
Ain't that interesting.


The other stuff you bring up about US space exploration, night vision and so on I am in agreement with you on - but on the subject of the flying wing I must go with the mainstream.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 01:44 PM
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I will always say that people shouldn't believe official sources, most times they lie, but it's also true that unofficial sources uses to lie the same or even more than official. You shouldn't do credit to none of those sources, you must read both and decide wich of them sounds more believable. To me, The most possible is that Northrop created the flying wing independently from Horten... and maybe at the end of the war they used Horten's tech to improve their Flying Wing. But it's just my opinion, no sources, no probes, nothing more than opinion.
On the other side, it's funny that german scientists detested the use that Hitler gave to their technical developements, but approved the even more terrible use that america gave to them... maybe they were slaves in both sides... or they were just silly

[edit on 18/5/05 by Chemapeich]



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc

Actually, thats a lie. You use the word "captured" and its simply not true. The USA did aquire a bunch of Nazi scientists, but most were very willing particpiants and detested Hitlers use of thier science. Its funny how you twist truth to deffend your incorrect statments regarding the flying wing.



That's what the NASA site i quoted says, but i am sure that is doctored. I bet those scientists were either tortured to work for USA or offered incentives that could'nt be turned down.

I mean how could a nasa website accept that. I dont blame it too.

But to think they worked for America voluntarily and whole-heartedly is the height of ignorance. My view is that they had no choice. But if they did, i see no reason why they would want to work for america.




The USA didnt do everything first, but they absolutly did the flying wing fist. Period


Alright, i accept that the flying wing was developed independantly by america.
But i feel convinced that the German flying wing was more advanced and the B-2 borrowed a lot from it, maybe more than what it borrowed from the american flying wing design.


[edit on 18-5-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 02:02 PM
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The first working flying wing aircraft were those produced by Englishman Joghn W Dunne from about 1910 such as that pictured below :





------------------------------
Credits to matej

The Northrop AFW or Model 216 was not a real flying wing, because it had extensive tail surfaces.



Reimar and Walter Hortens built and flew their first (real) flying wing Ho-I in 1933.


The N-1M was built by Northrops company "Northrop Aircraft Co." (founded in 1939) and was first flown in July 1940.






[edit on 18-5-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 06:52 PM
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Alright time to re-focus on the original and intended topic:
Raptors Fatal Flaw



Thank you.



seekerof



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 06:56 PM
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Well people is still talking about a sub-theme of the Raptor's problem... the lies of the USA



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 07:15 PM
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Please provide the sources of those "lies" in relation to this topic concerning the Raptor.

Do you have any?
Have you posted any yet or while even engaging in this topic?
Let me know if I am missing something here, k?





seekerof



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 07:20 PM
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no need for sources to talk about lies... you only need to read a newspaper anyday you want to see some lie from the USA, or wait till see the raptor in action against some real menace if you want something about this specific...



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 07:33 PM
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As par, thank you for your source links and contributions to this topic.



seekerof



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 07:44 PM
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Thanks to you, my only hope is making a better world sustained in no source


Seriously... sorry if I have offended you... really, you have reason... the thread has found his end (unless somebody has any source about the door is a real unsolved problem, and we all know that this would be unlikely that no source would say so even if real) and if people wants to discuss about who copied who in the flying wings theme, they should open a new thread if they can't find one about the theme.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by W4rl0rD
And no, the Raptor does not fly at Mach 4 or even Mach 3. Mach 2.1 is the best it can go, otherwise the stealth coat will melt off.


Just to clarify, I was addressing the top speed of the AIM-120. The intended top speed of the Raptor is mach 1.8. A point that I have made in previous posts, is how the F-15 is always compared to the newest and I mean newest of fighters the world has to offer. You would never compare it to an aircraft made in the generation that it was born in. Assuming the Raptor is capable of being upgraded as much as the F-16 which in the long run, surpassed the F-15 in capabliltity, I would not be surprised if it reigns supreme for the next 20 years or so. But to be honest, nobody can sure of that, and there will definately be impressive technology coming out all over the world.




Edit: fixed your quote to proper format


[edit on 18-5-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 08:46 PM
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Sorry about the last post, it was all in quote, sorry.



posted on May, 18 2005 @ 08:51 PM
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I don't think the U.S. copied anyone to be honest. It appears as though getting rid of the vertical stabilzer is the new fad among aircraft technology, the planned FB-22 is a good example. The Pak-Fa, S-37, Su-47, whatever, when you really get down to it is nothing like the F/A-22. Forward swept wings, canards, 90 degree angles...nothing.

I have to disagree with the "capturing" Nazi scientist statements, I think they were brought in by money and freedom rather than mafia style kidnapping. And when you think about it, most technology made in the U.S. is possible due to the fusion of minds from all over the world. Look at Silicon Valley, almost all Indian or Arabic scientists and engineers, it's what makes the country great and powerful.





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