Dissection of Live Dog in UT school classroom

I do think it was cruel, and I'm sure they could've done it differently, ie a film or something as Jemison said. Regardless of whether the parents were notified or not, the students should've been given every opportunity to leave before hand if they didn't want to partake in it.

That said, I think I'll go against the grain a little here. As traumatizing to the students as it may or may not have been, as cruel to the dog as it may or may not have been, a film doesn't necessarily get a point across as well as being in person at an event. If the teacher was wanting to demonstrate the function of the digestive system in detail, the only way to do that might have been with a live system. It may not have been possible with non-functioning organs. And showing it on film adds another layer of abstraction that might keep it from getting through very well.

Is it ethical? Well, apparently not, at least not in everyone's opinion. The benefits may have outweighed the costs. These students may end up traumatized, they may end up thankful for the experience in some way or another. Any effects of that sort aren't going to be obvious for a long time. It may have had no effect on them at all--most of the kids I went to high school with wouldn't have noticed if the teacher would've shot the dog with a rocket launcher. Not every kid is as sensitive as most people like to think.

Needless to say the dog didn't end up the better for the experience, but I doubt it's going to change our nation's view on the pet population problem much. From that perspective, I think it's better that some kind of use was found for the animal other than just killing it and burying it somewhere or cremating it. It shouldn't have been "left over" to begin with. But that problem we haven't progressed far enough to deal with yet.

wow..........that's just terrible.

my thoughts are this.............i don't see any need for a high school class to participate in this level of experimentation. i personally see no need in students at that level conducting that kind of experimentation on a living animal.

as far as the animal being sedated...........SO????? i mean........this is a teacher.......not a VET..........how does he KNOW that the animal was appropriately sedated??? i don't care if the animal was to be euthanized or not............that type treatment seems terribly inhumane.

sorry..........if my kid were at that school i just would have pitched a fit over that kind of class room work. i see it serving no purpose for a high school student............


geesh.........that's just ...........well i feel its just WRONG!
'

angie

I graduated from high school in 1968 and believe me the notion of dissect-
ing a live canine would have been universally rejected. Being a dog lover I
personally am repulsed and saddened by this practice. At what point does
the advancement of medical science supercede the notion of a sound and
contrite ethical and moral code?

Thats what its called. In theory, its perfectly ethical to aneathise the animal and then disect it, rather than kill it an dissect it. Being able to see the organs and systems functioning is, to say the least, a rare thing. Its perfectly legal and appropriate, but I don't think that high school kids are going to really get the full extent of the lesson anyhow, so its something of a waste.

Originally posted by DDay
0951 - what I meant by that statement was that I couldn't believe that something like this could even happen at all much less in our school system and being supported by a teacher and principal and for them to call it education. [...]
By no means was I supporting this.

DDay - No worries - My apologies if I made it sound that you were ...

I picked that line out of your post as it had had some resonance, and I felt it was an area worth further discussion. Sorry if in so doing, I implied your consent or advocacy to this issue.

Thanks.

no life should be harmed like this, not even something as insignificant as an insect for we are like insects to others.

Yeah - this was done simply for perverse curiosity...

Same reason people look at Faces of Death or even real snuff fare..

After graduating with a degree in Cellular and Molecular Biology I became so sickened with the whole biological research industry that I dropped out and taught myself instead how to program computers.

Be warned these are the same people who are actively begining to create both synthetic and chimeric lifeforms for corporations around the world.

It is really worrying to me to see such ammoral people as these at the wheel of these frakenstein like projects!

I don't know if ethics or morals have to come into the discussion here.

One thing that isn't understood about Gunnison, and other central Utah schools is that they are actually geared toward agriculture to the point that they are actually more like vocational schools than your normal school.

I'm not privy to the details of this story, but I would bet that in this case, these were kids who were enrolled in agricultural and farming specific course. I don't believe that the parents were not aware of what was going on, unless this is a normal thing, of course. I also don't believe that any student that didn't want to be there was forced to against their will. I really think that the kids taking this course were engaged in agricultural focused study.

Another think that I know is that the media is really good at leaving out specific information that might make their stories less controversial, and hence sell less stuff during the breaks.

Utah is very much a white trash state, as well. Keep that in mind.

I cannot believe this. Animal rights activists should be all over this one soon. I hope one of these parents can press criminal charges against this substitute teacher and head for the possible life long trauma that these children may very well need therapy to recover from nightmares caused by such actions.
Theses people are pityfull.
If one person dares to say..oh this happened because the teacher was forced to watch as his dog dissected as a child...ima find you and dissect you. I am so fed up with excuses of child abusers were abused as children. BS. I'm sick of our damn society. I say rid the US of all these sick pathetic pos people and we'll be a normal country for a huge change.
And oh hell no this AINT the type of thinking that made this country like it is today. Its this type of thinking that will fix it though
Sorry ya'll I hada vent Just pisses me off that people are just sitting in the comfy living spaces and turning a blind eye to so much these days.

The teacher should be brought up on creulty to animals charges. Here in Va. it would be done in a heartbeat and he would lose his job before his next thought.

Originally posted by krt1967
...press criminal charges against this substitute teacher and head for the possible life long trauma that these children may very well need therapy to recover from nightmares caused by such actions.

What?! You gotta be kidding, right? Therapy? LIFE-LONG trauma?!!! It's biology, for God's sake!

...ima find you and dissect you.

What the hell does ima mean?

One thing that isn't understood about Gunnison, and other central Utah schools is that they are actually geared toward agriculture to the point that they are actually more like vocational schools than your normal school.

Funny you mention that. I attended elementary school in Utah.
Next to the school was either a small farm or slaughterhouse(I don't recall which, many years ago), on more than one occasion we witnessed the slaughter of a few cows during recess.

Wow.....thats really messed up, I really am surprised that no aspca type groups are pursuing this(or maybe they are? you tell me)

I can understand that people are upset about this.

Of course, animals are treated far worse in slaughterhouses. This is a science class. Dissection is a valuable lesson, vivisection is harmless to the animal. Instead of being killed, packaged, and then shipped and cut open, its anathestised and dissected and ultimately killed, but completely harmlessly and painlessly. Heck, when i had to dissect a norwegian rat for a lab class, the buggers were killed right before they were dissected, by having a chisel hammered into the spine at the base of the skull. The one I and my lab partner got was still gasping and reaching when we were about to cut its ribcage open. Prof had to take it back and kill it better. One that two girls had had several rat pups in it. They weren't dead, they were just inside the dead carcass of their mother. They got chopped up after a bit and rendered into slides. This dog had it way better than those rats. Or the thousands of rats killed a day in a big city. Or most animals. Vivisection is done painlessly, its not 'cruel', and it demonstrates the functioning body, a 'wonderous' thing in nature. Those students had a rare and unique oppertunity and experience.

Originally posted by FLYIN HIGH
The teacher should be brought up on creulty to animals charges. Here in Va. it would be done in a heartbeat and he would lose his job before his next thought.

Vivisection is illegal in Va??

Back when I was in highschool, we dissected frogs of course but they were alive as well. We placed them into a container with materials, i forget what type being so long ago, to kill the frog. Then we dissected it. Later that year we also dissected pig fetus. Was a bit gross, but noone in the class that I remember objected to any of it.

Originally posted by Nygdan
In theory, its perfectly ethical to aneathise the animal and then disect it, rather than kill it an dissect it.

Perfectly ethical, all right. Thanks.
This is very tranquilizing. As long as some "scientific" ritual is kept, our ethical purity is assured.

Ritual? Anaesthizing the animal is ritual?? Its put into a coma like state, unable to feel anything, and never let out of it. Explain the cruelty. Lets not pretend that it makes no difference, doing a vivizection with the animal merely physcially restrained, that would be different and cruel, so you can't say that it makes no difference.

This is more ethical that butchering cattle for feed, and practically everyone is fine with that.

This cruelty plain and simple, as i said before dog's are called man's best friend for a reason. would you kill your best friend? no! dogs are protectors and friends, why anyone would treat a dog so horribly is unconsiousable.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
This cruelty plain and simple, as i said before dog's are called man's best friend for a reason. would you kill your best friend? no! dogs are protectors and friends, why anyone would treat a dog so horribly is unconsiousable.

Dogs are not 'man's best friend', they are animals, like mice and fish. I like dogs, but they're animals. In korea, dogs are regularly eaten. Dog farms are maintained where they are raised, slaughtered, butchered, and shipped to market. A vivisection is a good way to learn about anatomy and biology, to see living organs in operation. The dog is not treated poorly for this, and probably comes either from a warehouse where they are raised for the purpose, or from a shelter when they are up to be destroyed.

How is the vivisection cruel? The thing can't feel it, its been made comatose. The drugs that are designed to destroy them, to put them to sleep, those aren't designed to be painless, we have no idea what sensations they feel as it killed them. This stuff merely knocks them out, makes them unconcious, they can't fell anything, its like when a person goes into surgery. Its fundamentally not 'cruel', as long as its treated respectfully. Its being used to teach knowledge, important knowledge, rather than merely beign injected and thrown into a scrap heap and burnt with dozens of other strays.

Originally posted by Nygdan
In korea, dogs are regularly eaten. Dog farms are maintained where they are raised, slaughtered, butchered, and shipped to market. A vivisection is a good way to learn about anatomy and biology, to see living organs in operation. The dog is not treated poorly for this, and probably comes either from a warehouse where they are raised for the purpose, or from a shelter when they are up to be destroyed.

"The dog is not treated poorly for this" - translation: as long as whatever laws are respected, it is no problem by definition, because, what could be wrong with the laws?

Originally posted by Nygdan
How is the vivisection cruel? The thing can't feel it, its been made comatose. The drugs that are designed to destroy them, to put them to sleep, those aren't designed to be painless, we have no idea what sensations they feel as it killed them. This stuff merely knocks them out, makes them unconcious, they can't fell anything, its like when a person goes into surgery. Its fundamentally not 'cruel', as long as its treated respectfully. Its being used to teach knowledge, important knowledge, rather than merely beign injected and thrown into a scrap heap and burnt with dozens of other strays.

Now, apply the same argument to humans scheduled for death by your government. "The thing can't feel it, its been made comatose"... Nygdan, I know what you deserve.