Dissection of Live Dog in UT school classroom

This was/is part of the Illuminati/CIA/MK ULTRA mind control process. These kids are now traumatized and ready for further indoctrination. I thought Gunnison was in Colorado.

[edit on 5-27-2005 by groingrinder]

I thought Gunnison was in Colorado.

There is a Gunnison in Utah as well.

Originally posted by StarBreather
"The dog is not treated poorly for this" - translation: as long as whatever laws are respected, it is no problem by definition, because, what could be wrong with the laws?

No, thats a completely incorrect understanding. The dog is under anathestic. It is a comletely painless procedure. The animal does not suffer, and is not aware. It feels nothing. It knows nothing. Its just like a person in surgery. Is surgery cruel? Sure the recovery can be very rough, but this animal isn't made to wake up and recover at all. Its put into a deep, mindless, painless sleep. Whats more, its a dog that was going to be destroyed. It was getting a needle either way. And, I beleive that when animals are destroyed, that the are given a chemical that shuts down their muscles, w/o knocking them out, and thus the actually suffocate to death. Who knows what happens to them when they are completely paralyzed and their tissues are starved of all oxygen? This dog might even consider itself lucky. Its not 'humiliated' at being examined, it has no concept of it even if it was informed beforehand. Whats more, it was used for a slightly higher purpose, to educate man on the workings of the living body, which is more than any dog normally gets to do in its death.

Now, apply the same argument to humans scheduled for death by your government. "The thing can't feel it, its been made comatose"...

Actually, when humans are executed, so far as I know, they aren't anaethized.

Nygdan, I know what you deserve.

Oh yeah? Whats that?? Go ahead, elaborate.

There is NO need for this kind of disection in a high school. Not on a dog. A dead, pickled fetal pig is one thing, I living breathing dog is another

I have a friend who is a vet tech. I have a 15 year old dog that is not going to live forever. I asked if she could get some euthanasia solution and put my dog to sleep at my house vs traumitizing her at the vet(if and when she needs to be put to sleep)

She said no, it was illegal for anyone but a licensed vet to administer it to an animal.

I hope this guy is charged with practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

Ok, Nygdan, now please lie on this operating table here...

Originally posted by Nygdan
No, thats a completely incorrect understanding. The dog is under anathestic. It is a comletely painless procedure. The animal does not suffer, and is not aware. It feels nothing. It knows nothing. Its just like a person in surgery.

You seem to approach this issue from a purely functional and materialistic point of view. From this point of view, once consciousness is not apparent, all moral considerations cease. Once someone is in a coma, with no family or carers, whatever the prognostic, the State can withdraw life support because no harm is done.

Whats more, its a dog that was going to be destroyed. It was getting a needle either way.

Again: "what's more, it's a [criminal | retarded | useless] thing that was going to be destroyed"...
These words (including "dog") all mean: infra-human.
So, armed with this handy way of dividing creatures into humans and infra-humans, you go around spreading death and destruction.
Have you thought about how super-humans would behave towards humans under these careless laws?

This dog might even consider itself lucky. Its not 'humiliated' at being examined, it has no concept of it even if it was informed beforehand. Whats more, it was used for a slightly higher purpose, to educate man on the workings of the living body, which is more than any dog normally gets to do in its death.

This must be an imaginary dog. Real dogs are afraid, they sense something is wrong (the chemical smells, the funny voice of the veterinarian), and they would rather be elsewhere. Real dogs also don't thank you for being enlisted as raw material for scientific progress.

Actually, when humans are executed, so far as I know, they aren't anaethized.

Yes, they are. Thiopental is used for anesthesia before death by lethal injection in the US. And the reasoning is just the same: anesthesia is somehow supposed to "make it more ok", because the creature can't feel anything.

Nygdan, I know what you deserve.

Oh yeah? Whats that?? Go ahead, elaborate.

Nygdan, I'm sorry, I think I botched your operation, now what can I do?

Not a vet school, Not nessesary!



These studies can be undertaken using VR technology.

[edit on 123131p://090512 by instar]

we only took on the task of disecting a cow heart and a sheeps eye. both very disgusting, very icky and well i couldn't even imagine the dog thing, but it sounds very morally wrong.

i think even to allow students to cut up a dead dog would be kinda bad because they see dogs as cute, cuddly etc... no one cars about a cows heart or sheeps eye because you ate the burger and lamb chop... but a dog! a dog! crikey... lol

Originally posted by StarBreather
You seem to approach this issue from a purely functional and materialistic point of view.

As opposed to what? A spiritual one? I should be concerned for the dog's immortal spirit, which suffered no offense and felt no pain at this procedure?

From this point of view, once consciousness is not apparent, all moral considerations cease.

This is called a 'strawman' arguement. I have made no such arguement.

Have you thought about how super-humans would behave towards humans under these careless laws?

Probably exactly the same way. Of course, that'd be different, since dogs don't think about life, don't have human dignity, and simply, aren't human.

And if aliens were going around, locking up humans who didn't have tags, and destroying them if no one volunteered to take them home and buy them, then the least thing anyone should be concerned about is some alien students inducing a coma in a person and vivisecting them.

This must be an imaginary dog. Real dogs are afraid,

Irrelevant. The dog is not going to know that its going to be destroyed at the vet or used to lecture at the classroom.

Real dogs also don't thank you for being enlisted as raw material for scientific progress.

Because they are 'dumb' animals. They have no idea whats going on around them.

Yes, they are. Thiopental is used for anesthesia before death by lethal injection in the US. And the reasoning is just the same: anesthesia is somehow supposed to "make it more ok", because the creature can't feel anything.

Ok, i stand corrected, they knock out people when they execute them. Now are you saying that its better to hang people to death? If we agree that a person is going to be killed, is it wrong to kill them as peacably as possible, or should it allways be violent? And, if we agree that this dog is going to be injected and die, does it matter that the dog is knocked out and vivisected?

I'm sorry, I think I botched your operation, now what can I do?

You could try making some sense on this point.

instar
These studies can be undertaken using VR technology.

These studies cannot be done with a tv screen in front of a class on a video tape. There is nothing that compares to the actual organism. These students obviously had textbooks that showed, in clear detail, the organs of the animal. But these students got a real unusual 'treat', a special case where they got to see the actual operating organism.

but a dog! a dog! crikey

Koreans raise dogs as livestock, is that morally wrong? I can understand it being disturbing tho.

In my highschool, one of the teachers used to run a cat disssection. He'd get cats from a biological supply company, so they'd show up dead and packaged, just like frogs and fish and worms do. He stopped it after one year tho, because the animals were scrawny, obviously mistreated, and had had their claws just ripped out of their feet. That was wrong. Those animals suffered. But a vivisection, its sensationalistic, so people object to it. Meanwhile dogs are raised as livestock in korea and there are cat farms where the animals are not very well treated and shipped dead.

[edit on 9-6-2005 by Nygdan]

If a teacher tried this at my school they would e dead in less than oh lets say 2 minutes because that's how long that dog would have been alive. If given the chance i would 1. kick him in the nuts 30 or 40 times until hes "tranquilized" and then 2. proceed to dissect that sick F**ck.

That makes a # of a lot of sense.

Hey, guess what, there are lots of dogs and cats and animals being vivisected all across the US. Gonna do anything 'bout that?

If my child came home and told me that this was performed in their school, and that she/he had to watch it, you could bet your life on the fact that I would have been the first one complaining. My kids know that at anytime, be it school, a neighbors, a relative, etc, that if they feel uncomfortable they are to get up and leave NO MATTER WHAT IS SAID BY THE ADULT, and call me immediately. Dissecting a live animal is just SICK, and those involved in this little classroom demonstration should be fired for being so careless. Vet school, fine, High School, no way!!

Originally posted by cw034
If my child came home and told me that this was performed in their school, and that she/he had to watch it, you could bet your life on the fact that I would have been the first one complaining.

They always let people leave when things like this are done, whether its an actual dissection of a dead animal, or even viewing documentaries with holocaust footage.

Dissecting a live animal is just SICK

It is not sick, just as dissection of a dead animal is not sick.

and those involved in this little classroom demonstration should be fired for being so careless.

They should be appluaded for going thru the trouble of getting the permits and the animal and the class time to do it.

Just my 2 cents. I think most people are responding emotionally. They are thinking of their pet being in this situation. This dog was no one's pet. It was scheduled to be euthanized. If a vet was present for the administration of the anesthesia, no crime was committed. This is not a moral dilema. It may be considered inappropriate for high school. But if this is an animal husbandry class, it could be considered appropriate as long as those who did not wish to participate were allowed to leave.

I am against animal disection in school. It is not necessary for a high school education on anatomy. If somone wishes to persue an education where a more in depth study is needed, then it would be appropriate. I chose to work in the field of aviation. How does disecting a frog in high school make me a better mechanic?

How does disecting a frog in high school make me a better mechanic?

So do you think students should only receive instruction in areas they think will be necessary in the future?

You probably could have dropped out of school in the eighth grade and still been a decent mechanic. I could have dropped out in the sixth grade and still been a great carpenter.

I think a well rounded education is the way to go though. Especially when many high school students don't know exactly what they are going to do when they get out of school.

[edit on 23/6/05 by Skibum]

Originally posted by Skibum

How does disecting a frog in high school make me a better mechanic?

So do you think students should only receive instruction in areas they think will be necessary in the future?

You probably could have dropped out of school in the eighth grade and still been a decent mechanic. I could have dropped out in the sixth grade and still been a great carpenter.

I think a well rounded education is the way to go though. Especially when many high school students don't know exactly what they are going to do when they get out of school.

[edit on 23/6/05 by Skibum]

I probably would never have been able to pass my A&P test to become an aircraft mechanic if I had dropped out of school. That is not my point. My point is that animal disection is not a necessary tool in teaching anatomy. I know enough about anatomy to understand how my body works without seeing the actual insides of any animal. It might be helpful if I had decided to go into medicine, but it is not necessary for a well rounded education.

point is that animal disection is not a necessary tool in teaching anatomy.

Its definitly something that can be taught without dissections and vivesections, but the thing is, there's really no substitute for the actual body. The schematized diagrams that one sees in books aren't actual animals, they're what people think these things look like, they're a person's conception of it.

For example, in one class I was in we were looking at slides of female reproductive tissues. In the text, it stated, rather clearly, that these particular female organs do not have any erectile tissues.

Yet, when you look under the microscope, there it is, clear as day, erectile tissues.

Or in another class I had, we rendered norwegian rats into slides. One of the girls, their rat, when they opened it up, there were several rat pups, still in the womb.

You're not going to get oppurtunities like that in a text book, to actual deal with the actual animal and work with its tissues. Its not necessary to any profession, even in high school, if you want to be a doctor, you're going to get that training in university, but it is a great thing for a person to do if they want to be a well educated individual.

Just my 2 cents. I think most people are responding emotionally. They are thinking of their pet being in this situation. This dog was no one's pet.

Darkelf, it didn't need to be and yes some responses are based on emotion here as well they should be. We are desensitized enough already. Opening up a live animal in front of kids should evoke a response.
Whether or not this particular dog was anyone's pet isn't the issue. You needn't own a dog, cat, rabbit etc...It's the thought of a domesticated animal that is the horrifying part. At least to me.
If this story was about a live dissection of lets say and alligator, then more than likely there would be less of an outburst.
Why? Well we generally don't keep them as pets and they aren't something we have had or have a relationship with. Regardless of whether this animal was scheduled to be put down or not we care by association.

This is disgusting. This professor should be FIRED. With the technology and software that we have today, there is absolutely no reason for something like this to take place. An innocent animal was butured alive for absolutely no purpose. I'd LOVE to be alone in a room with this guy for 5 minutes. To me, people who hurt animals are the biggest cowards of them all.