How much longer are we going to be lied to ?

Originally posted by Quest
Don't get me wrong, I agree the war on terror is bogus...

But there are tons of articles about this on non-bias sites. Anything linked from michael moore's site is going to be ignored by bush supporters.

To be fair, Moore links directly to the Kinight Ridder article.

There have been secrets in the past.
Who knew about D Day when our gallant men fought their way ashore into Europe?

Who knew about Hiroshima, and the power of our weapons?

There have been secrets for generations, and yet who are the beneficiaries of these secrets?

You are. Because you are a member of the society that has dominated and led the world. You hae been swept along in the economic, technological and wealth tsunami that has flooded the planet.

You are a direct beneficiary of the very governemnt you despise.

There are secrets in Russia, Iran and other despotic countries like Canada. Would you rather live in their society? Or eat their meat?

Don't forget that your parents have secrets yet you still love them. Sometimes secrets and the acceptance of them is a cost that must be borne to live in the world we have created.

What is the alternative? Chaos? Surrender?

The decay of pride and thankfullness about living in a free society where your rights are protected by the very techniques you despise, is sad.

Be thankful of secrets as it means your basic lifestyle is protected.



[edit on 9-5-2005 by GeneralDilemma]

thank you hajduk...

with all these other members attacking what i had posted, i lost my head and forgot to mention that whether moore lies or not is irrelevant.

he does take news stories that other journalists have exposed and tries to draw more attention to them by linking them to his site.

What is "wrong" with power and greed is that power is an illusion and greed is ultimately self-defeating.

All "governments" throughout history have been driven by power and greed. That fact does not make power and greed virtueous, merely ubiquitous.

My social structure is based on my family and friends. My economic existence is based on my ability to trade what I have or can do for what I want or need. Greed is want in excess of need; an obession with the superflous. The ultimate realization of greed, ie. finally "having all the...", is by its very nature a defeat. If you had all the money in the world you could never spend it because if you did, you wouldn't have all the money in the world anymore!

And if you would argue that "This is the way it has always been..." although I'm afraid that I would have to agree, I would suggest that it is high time to change this dominate paradigm; to turn our collective backs on what has carried us to this point in our development and begin charting a new course.

"When I was a child I played as a child. But the time has come to put away childish things." Humanity has had too long a childhood, I think.

Real Men acknowledge their power and the responsibility to use it for the good of all, recognizing that if they fail to do so, they risk losing their power, one way or another.

The strong rule until the stronger rule them.

The Wise merely lead.

Originally posted by GeneralDilemma
Sometimes secrets and the acceptance of them is a cost that must be borne to live in the world we have created.

Be thankful of secrets as it means your basic lifestyle is protected.

Your assessment of this situation is merely a product of its moral luck, to draw on ideas presented by Thomas Nagel. If these events did not produce these favorable results, then we would be despising them, yes? A purely Kantian approach might hold that these events and dirty secrets are morally wrong, but realistically, much of what we consider to be good is based on the actual outcome of the event.

I have no real point except that if things had turned out differently, you probably would not be so proud. Just hope that luck doesn't run out.

[edit on 9-5-2005 by Jamuhn]

Bhadhidar

Thumbs way up for acting on wisdom. I find those who have pointed their knowledge the way of the wise tend to remove themselves from such trivial displays of "strength"

I will back the general for being on the right track least he be aware of it.

For it is not power and greed that drive america, but total control (which by the way is a form of currency only truely valued when it is all counted, and all sat upon)

We aren't going after oil or resources, we arn't going after differing faith either.

America is simply on a feeding mission. Right now certian foods must be fed back to america while it systematicly portions out it's bounty for... control.

This has nothing to do with pride general, it comes from a love of all things, and an understanding that bloody steps must be taken to ensure survival.

to call all humanity your family is a beautiful and joyus thing, but to hold that love while hunting down the sick, that requires a ballanced heart, or a sheep with a gun.

I belive that human/earth ballance could be found without law, war, control of others. But it would definatly be much more chaotic, and much slower.

What we all need most is patience and a sence of humor.

How much longer are we going to be lied to? Depends. How long can the U.S. fantasy faith based empire last?

Empire? Well, it was stated as such last year by a Bush aide.

Suskind: He says, you know, "You, Suskind, you're in what we call the 'reality-based community'" — that's actually the term he used.

I said, "The WHAT?"

He says, "The 'reality-based community'.". He said, "you all believe" — now let me see if I can get this right — "You all believe that answers to solutions will emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality."

I said, "Yeah... YEAH, OF COURSE..."

He says, "Well, let me tell you how we really see it. You see, we're an empire now. And when we act, we kinda create a reality. Events flow from our actions. And because of that, what we do is... essentially... we act, and every time we act we create a whole new set of laws of physics, which you then judiciously study for your solutions, and while you're doing that we'll act again, promulgate a whole other set."

Suskind: And this guy said, "and that's where we'll stand ultimately; you'll study us, and we'll act. We'll be the actors, and you will study what we do. And if you're really good — on good behavior — maybe thirty years from now one of us will visit that graduate seminar you'll be teaching at Dartmouth in your tweed blazer." That's the thinking.

wow!

That's like the best explanation for 3 instead of 2 i can find. 2 looks at the difference, 2 compares. The 3 is the action to cause 1 and 1 to remain 2, no matter how many times it wants to be 3. So i was right that 4 is simply 2 and 6. and 3! it's a moderator yet a subject itself.

hmm very interesting. i like america alot more after that.

[edit on 5/9/2005 by VaporTrail]

Without the lies, there is no reason to live. No truth left to find. when 1 = 0

I for "one" am fine with this, but being happy with nothing is like trying to be at all. heh

man i need to sleep. you rock ATS

Arn't greed and power the American dream?