If I may just say something...

It's pretty obvious that there are those who either fear Freemasonry due to the ill willed information readily available on the internet or those that simply disapprove of it due to their own personal beliefs. However, I am growing ever more tired of the constant attempts of those who aim to misrepresent Masonry by making empty claims, posting articles of he said she said or otherwise spewing banter everywhere with nothing to back up their claims.

I'm not even a 3rd degree Mason yet, however, due to my current involvement, like others, I aim to learn as much as I can and egage in discussions of value, with facts, real information to better support my personal efforts in achieving a better understand of that which I devote some of my time. I am tired of sifting through muck and crap for those few and far between diamonds in the rough that actually provide true insight into the topics at hand.

If your against Masonry, why not actually do some real homework and create a compelling expose on the group instead of posting random garbage? Do you lack the energy of your convictions? Do you simply only care enough about painting these satanic pictures of an order many of you seemingly know very little about as long as it doesn't involve any real time or effort?

I guess what I am in a word saying is, either put up or shut up. If you are truly against Masonry, believe it is Satanic or overall a bad thing, your just not doing your cause very much good at all, so prove your claims. Provide facts, videos, audio, links, credible claims from credible people.

I've read FreemasonryWatch..you know something? It drove me to join the Masons. It didn't sway me or slow me.

If you are for Masonry, stop feeding all of the trolls. Credibility comes to anything that brings enough attention. If I say all Masons ride pigs around a bon fire at lodge meetings and 100 Masons jump me in defense, it only makes it look as though there is something to hide.

Many of us, including myself are conscious. We are mostly capable of determining whether or not someone is a mere nutcase on a mission or someone with valauble information to share. 9 out of 10 are just here to stir things up and bait Masons into a flame war in attempts at then poitning the finger.

It's time to stop the bull# and grow up. If you have a story to tell, tell it. I'll read it. But if your a nutcase or just some hatemonger looking to fulfill your own void with some self proclaimed purpose of self righteous indulgance, get a paper bag and stick your face in it. Stop spewing garbage everywhere theres a submit button.

Can any of you come up with any concrete facts to support your claims?

I'm doubting it, so lets move onto some of the more important issues.

Shall we?

You have voted ElectricCrow for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Here, here!

One thing though... If we are being concise, polite, and honest when we defend Masonry in the face of such hatred and slander, it reinforces the fact that Masons strive to be better men. It is only when we get defensive and hot-headed that we hurt our case. I don't think the anti's should have the comfort or convinience of the silent treatment, and give them the forum to spout their crap uncontested. There are many who will swallow those words just because someone typed them. If we keep within due bounds and keep our cools and always provide facts and honest replies and rebuttals, we will be doing Masonry (as well as Truth Seekers) service.

It is when we stoop to the level of those detractors that we lose ground.


[edit on 4/25/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by ElectricCrow
It's time to stop the and grow up. If you have a story to tell, tell it. I'll read it. But if your a nutcase or just some hatemonger looking to fulfill your own void with some self proclaimed purpose of self righteous indulgance, get a paper bag and stick your face in it. Stop spewing garbage everywhere theres a submit button.

Excellent post, ElectricCrow. I'd vote you for way above if I had any votes left. But what you said is spot-on.

Originally posted by The Axeman
There are many who will swallow those words just because someone typed them. If we keep within due bounds and keep our cools and always provide facts and honest replies and rebuttals, we will be doing Masonry (as well as Truth Seekers) service.

Axeman, I get the point.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Axeman, I get the point.

Heheh. It wasn't directed specifically at you bro! I am just as guilty of this than anyone else. It was a generalzed statement, I assure you.

*steps down from soap box*



[edit on 4/25/05 by The Axeman]

ElectricCrow

Well said Brother. The eyes of the young see clearly.

If, by staying on this board and answering our accusers with facts and decorum, it is possable to bring one "good man" to the light than it is well worth the effort. There are many good masons on this board trying to refute the false claims. Most deserve credit for their efforts.

An occasional lasps of temper is understandable. It is hard to sit by and see an orginization you respect malined and lied about. Lies are one of the few things that seem to go faster than light. Most of the misrepresentaions and out right lies I've read here are not new. Some of them were published in the mid 1800's in the anti-masonry part literature. They have been answered time after time, but always seem to have a life of their own, and find ready believers despite the proof to the contrary.

The chances of coverting any of our accusers is very remote, at best. But to leave the field only to them does not allow an undecided indiviual the opertunity to hear the truth about masonry. Thus allowing the false to be perseved as truth. The persute of truth should be the goal of all good men.

Keep up the good work Brothers.

I am not a mason. In truth, I know very little about it. I have seen tons of sites declaring its debauchery and steeping it in conspiracy. I don't subscribe to these peoples theories.

I must say, imo, when I see a mason defending themselves and their organization, it makes the naysayers seem alot less credible, as i beleive Masonic Student said.

I am not a Mason, nor do I expect to become one. I do not need to be a part of a secret organization, and as a Christian, I feel that my actions and my words should always be open to public scrutiny.

Having said this, let me say this: I reserve the right to judge people on an individual basis. I am happy to say that by and large, those who I know who belong to the Masonic organization are good and reputable people; people who are worthy of my trust and good word. People who I would ask to hold my wallet, and would expect that it would not even be opened, much less anything missing.

That is all I have to say on the subject of Masonry.

I have always maintained that Freemasonry by and large is what it says it is.

But the criticism has always been of ever-increasing meetings behind closed doors between men of public influence.

I mean, the problem is not Masons, it is that by accepting Masons, we accept ANY one meeting behind closed doors, and dismiss it as innocent. But I am saying, how can we know what is being discussed 'behind every door' (because sooner or later, YOUR business WILL be discussed behind your back) if no Mason on this board (or anywhere) could possibly name all the Masonic affiliates and offshoots, all groups imitating Masonry, and every organization that uses Masonry's structure, or initiation and levels of distinction

Its a question of it (affecting your life) sooner or later , and it really only begins with Masons. They are only the justification for all other 'private' meetings.

they are not the Alpha and Omega of secret societies, THAT is the big lie.

It is not how the Masons run, it is who Runs the Masons that worries me. I know several Masons who have left the Masons because of the "Behind Closed Doors" corruption within the Higher Echelons of the Socities. I say Socities for centuries, have either A: Infiltrated another Society, within the Originals notice B: Have Banded together to strengthen power.

But we cannot not dismiss Masons, Illuminati, Knights Templar, Priory Di Scion, Opes Dai, Cathars, etc..etc..etc.. (and yes they All Exsist) Because in the long run, what they do behind closed doors, may not effect us. So rather then trying to figure that out, Why not look at what Corruption will effect us, Like the World Goverments, and the Corruption into one of the biggest Secret Society to ever "grace" the earth, The Vatican, Yes thats right the Seat of the Roman Catholic Church.

There is more Corruption in the RCC, ranging from the Sex Scandles, to things that you and I may never know exsist!!!!

There I am done Ranting and Raving for a while!

BYE NOW

Mobhit

Well, I believe that what goes on in corporate board rooms is as much of any importance as what goes on in a Lodge.

Seriously, just about everyone conducting business or gathering in any form for any reason does so behind closed doors. I close the door when I go to the bathroom. Not because I'm conjuring up some mystical demon. I simply don't want someone to know my # stinks (I act like it doesnt and some people believe me). Just kidding.

Overall, everyone has something to hide be it on an individual basis or groups. I think the finger is pointed at Masonry because they are the most open of all the organizations and openly support charities etc. More people know about them.

Maybe there is a small group of lizard people running the upper echelons of Masonry. Or maybe the big secret is that a Woman heads up the entire organization. Who cares? If God deems the world unworthy, everything comes tumbling down anyway. Be a better you, don't worry so much about things out of your control and make your life better for yourself and those around you. Do that, and there is nothing to be concerned about.

Originally posted by mobhitmusic
It is not how the Masons run, it is who Runs the Masons that worries me. I know several Masons who have left the Masons because of the "Behind Closed Doors" corruption within the Higher Echelons of the Socities.

Can you tell me WHO runs the masons? Who is it that worries you? And also please let me know of who these masons that left because of supposed "closed-door" corruption. I don't think that what you are saying is true at all, there is no closed doors to be seen in masonry once you become a Master Mason. That's why I think you are either mistaken, or lying.

And, also, there are NO "Higher Echelons" of masonic societies. I hate to repeat myself yet again, but it is a FRATERNITY. That means everybody is the same. The only masons with any authority are the lodge officers, who are elected to one-year terms.

But we cannot not dismiss Masons, Illuminati, Knights Templar, Priory Di Scion, Opes Dai, Cathars, etc..etc..etc.. (and yes they All Exsist)

Again, I would LOVE to see you present evidence as for the existence of the Illuminati, etc. What makes you so SURE that they exist?

I am not trying to be a prick, but you need to stop being so sure of everything you think you know about Freemasonry, and actually start listening to and learning from credible sources. It seems that you have been given some very incorrect information about Freemasonry.

I just hope and pray that virgiin from my EA will forgive me in her next life...

Originally posted by ElectricCrow
I just hope and pray that virgiin from my EA will forgive me in her next life...

Careful, we may have to blow your toilet.

But we cannot not dismiss Masons, Illuminati, Knights Templar, Priory Di Scion, Opes Dai, Cathars, etc..etc..etc..

nor should we dismiss "spell checker" a truely evil invention.

There are many who will swallow

WHERE??????

Again, I would LOVE to see you present evidence as for the existence of the Illuminati, etc. What makes you so SURE that they exist?


SO your one to dismiss 4-5 hundred years of history sebatwerk?. I have seen documents from the Archivio Segreto Vaticano before, My uncle is Rhodes Scholar whoes primary research is religion in societies, both open and secret, My cousin works in the Vatican, and I have researched deeper then most people could ever dream of researching something like this.

And Just because Someone was nice enough to give Eletriccow (i think posted this thread) a tour of the Lodge means Jack. I can go to Washington and tour the Whitehouse, but I do See everything that goes on there. NO!.

You think that you know everything there is to know about Masonry and them being open and all, you have know Idea. You never met my friends and you never will, the fact is, just because you think you know what your talking about, only made them laugh when I showed them your post.


I am not trying to be a prick, but you need to stop being so sure of everything you think you know about Freemasonry, and actually start listening to and learning from credible sources. It seems that you have been given some very incorrect information about Freemasonry.


Now It's my turn to not be a prick. What makes you think that all the information you have been given is true. I think that you Sir have been misinformed and for the right reasons of secrecy.

Mobhit

Ex-Mason
Vatican Researcher
Almost Rhode Scholar

[edit on 1-5-2005 by mobhitmusic]

Originally posted by mobhitmusic
SO your one to dismiss 4-5 hundred years of history sebatwerk?. I have seen documents from the Archivio Segreto Vaticano before, My uncle is Rhodes Scholar whoes primary research is religion in societies, both open and secret, My cousin works in the Vatican, and I have researched deeper then most people could ever dream of researching something like this.

HISTORY!?!? What ARE you talking about!?!?

And Just because Someone was nice enough to give Eletriccow (i think posted this thread) a tour of the Lodge means Jack. I can go to Washington and tour the Whitehouse, but I do See everything that goes on there. NO!.

Sigh... whatever you say man. You can keep making these silly accusations, but the fact remains that you have absolutely no (NONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, BLIP) evidence to back up your statements. So why would you believe something you've never seen for yourself?

You think that you know everything there is to know about Masonry and them being open and all, you have know Idea. You never met my friends and you never will, the fact is, just because you think you know what your talking about, only made them laugh when I showed them your post.

Uuuuuhhh, ok. And just WHY would I care if your friends think my post is funny? Again, are any of them Freemasons? Do THEY have any evidence to back up the claims you have made? Because I have plenty of credible evidence to back up MY claims.

Now It's my turn to not be a prick. What makes you think that all the information you have been given is true. I think that you Sir have been misinformed and for the right reasons of secrecy.

Everything I know about Freemasonry I have experienced for myself. It is not stuff I read in a book, not stuff someone told me, I know all this because I am a Freemason and I've been VERY involved in my lodge and in my district for a long time. I know MANY masons and I've attended MANY meetings in MANY lodges.

Additionally, I am currently being trained to be one of my lodge's officers (I will be voted to a one-year term next year), and I'm being given the chance to learn and experience the ins and outs of running a lodge of Freemasons.I think I would have enough experience to know what I'm saying.

Ex-Mason
Vatican Researcher
Almost Rhode Scholar

Ex-Mason?!? EX-MASON!?!?!?! I DONT BUY THAT FOR ONE MINUTE!!! Why would you lie about something like this? What do you think you have to gain by telling people that you used to be a mason!?!? You have NEVER been a Freemason, and you and I both know this.

Originally posted by mobhitmusic
Ex-Mason
Vatican Researcher
Almost Rhode Scholar

Quite the dichotomy from one post to another, certainly not impossible, just unlikely.

Mobhitmusic's other background.

Research Monkeys, not just for the Vatican anymore...

Originally posted by mobhitmusic

Mobhit

Ex-Mason
Vatican Researcher
Almost Rhode Scholar

[edit on 1-5-2005 by mobhitmusic]

Riiiiiiiight...

Oy, cripes.

Honestly, I'm beginning to think all the anti-Masonic hysteria around here is just a plot to distract the more paranoid of us from the real secrets.

Masons and Masonic organizations really don't have any secrets left. It's all been published. I've got books on my bookshelft right now that tell me everything there is to know about the Masonic fraternity, it's aims, goals, and so-called secrets. (A big hint: It's really pretty much all in the Bible.)

Bah.

Secret societies? Masons?! Give me a break. They publish the minutes of their meetings. I often run across them in various used book stores. Silly people... that's no way to keep a secret.

You want to worry about secret societies? I'll give you some you can worry about. Genuinely shadowy types, lurking in the mists of historical events. Curious coincidents that make you wonder who pulled the strings.

But none of those strings were apron strings, I assure you.

And those groups don't stick lapel pins everywhere to tell you who they are.

Now, grow up and leave the Masons be. These (mostly) old men need their naps and typing out the same boring replies to the same tired accusations taxes their memory.

People who fear that something is above thier intellect or ability usually react with a fight or flight response. It is our most primitive time. It takes a bigger person to admit they don't know everything, heck it might even motivate someone to go out and do great things. Rather than sit behind a computer and read unfounded claims. So all you anti-masons out there, seek the truth do your research, or are you too afraid that it may make you want to join? Heck after looking into the philosophy of masonry and the intentions of the organization toward charity, truth, honesty, justice and tollerance; I find it hard to resist the urge to join up. I just cannnot seem to fathom how anyone who has done their research into the subject can argue to such a great extent against it. It almost seems like a waste of time. Sorry, just a debate coach rambling on...not trying to be rude to anyone.

Why must people fear what they don't understand?