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You want to understand Modern Air & Naval Warfare?

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posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 04:33 PM
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This is not a 'game' thread, but the Sim or Tool that can be used to find out just some of the results of possible scenarios that are discussed here at ATS. Since many are interested in Naval and Air warfare, I thought I would provide the information to let them explore that interest with fervor.



First , a little history.


Tom Clancy used the Harpoon database for The Hunt for Red October and used the tool again with Mr. Larry Bond to game out the convoy battles in Red Storm Rising. What was that tool? It was the naval miniatures rule set Harpoon authored by Mr. Bond.


Clash of Arms


The Harpoon 4.1 Rules and Databases is a comprehensive listing of platforms, weapons and sensors for naval, air, and some land units. Each ship class entry has a full listing of its sensors, offensive and defensive weaponry, as well as dates and details of refits. Aircraft entries list their performance, sensors, and possible ordnance loadouts. Separate annexes are included for torpedoes, naval guns, naval and land-based missile systems, antisubmarine weapons, anti-missile weapons, radar, sonar, aircraft weapons, and more, including nuclear weapons, all organized by nation. All the data is based on real-world information, and is the most accurate unclassified source in existence.






For a history of the Harpoon series of Sims and Computer Products, go here,
Harpoon History

The most well known version of this game around this time was called Harpoon Classic. This was used by some Navies and the US Naval War College for training.



The Next iteration of the game was called Harpoon II. It was a classic and the detail is not matched by any other game. Fleet Command and such just aren't in the same league. Well Harpoon II being a DOS game did not run well under Win 95 & Win98 and stability was a major issue, well this is no longer is the case. The Sim can eat alive anything that Intel or AMD can throw at it as far as processor speed was concerned.


Then came a remake of the Harpoon Classic called Harpoon97...and updated version with new battlesets. It was a nice game to have but still lacked the depth that I desired in a Sim of this type.



Then came Harpoon 3, a MAC port of Harpoon 2 code. The owner of the rights granted the coder the right to then port to Windows and today we have Harpoon 3 for the PC.



During the last 4-5 years, Harpoon 4 was to be the culmination of both of these game linages, but after many stumbling blocks, it had been canceled last year...





[color=RED]But now we have the opportunity to have Harpoon Classic 2002/2005 and Harpoon 3 MultiPlayer. The chance to see what a human opponent can do in real time!These are in my opinion the most advanced simulators of Modern Naval Warfare that a civilian can buy!



[color=BLUE]Harpoon 3 and Harpoon 3 MP



[color=RED]Next we have Harpoon 3 and soon to be released H3 Multiplayer. This in my opinion is the best of the best. The graphics are the only issue as they are 10 years old but the 'guts' of this sim is the best you can get.

Features:
* The most realistic modern naval warfare simulation publicly available
* Derived from Harpoon Classic, and updated from Harpoon II.
* Based on Larry Bond's Harpoon 3rd Edition Rules
* Microsoft Windows compatible: 98, ME, NT4, 2000, and XP
* Apple Macintosh compatible: System 7.1 or greater, OSX support
* Unlimited combat areas - the entire world is included!
* Multiple databases, many user created
* Unlimited scenario creation with the Scenario Editor
* Unlimited platform editing via the Platform Editor
* More sophisticated simulation code than Harpoon Classic
* Open database, hence the editors and databases are user created!
* Nuclear Warfare at Sea! Yes Its in there!

As the successor to the award-winning Harpoon 2 and Harpoon Classic, Harpoon 3 is quite possibly the most comprehensive, most realistic and most accurate strategy-simulation of air and naval operations available to non-military users. The computer-Harpoon series is, in fact, considered to be close enough to "the real thing" that it has been in use for years by various military branches around the world as a training and "what-if" simulation tool.



[color=RED]You want to know what balance of power between China and Taiwan? You want to see why as of today the Chinese can NOT take Taiwan? But what if the French sell the Chinese the Rafale? Or the Russians sell them 10 more Haizhou (Sovremennyy) class? Well here is the method to find out


external image

external image


Many more screenshots at the bottom

More screenshots I found


For a review of this Sim

GameSpot review of Harpoon 3
OR
Harpoon 3 review for MACs






[color=BLUE]Harpoon Classic 2002/2005




Harpoon Classic 2002 (HC) Gold Features

* Based on Larry Bond's Harpoon 3rd Edition Rules
* Microsoft Windows compatible: 98, ME, NT4, 2000, and XP
* Four combat areas (North Atlantic, Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom Gap, Indian Ocean/Persian Gulf, and the Mediterranean)
* Wicked computer opponent
* Easy to play, hard to master
* Further optimization and defect removal of the EXE
* New Platform Editor
* Updated Scenario Editor
* Updated, expanded, and enhanced database
* Updated EC2003 Scenarios (based on B.I. Hutchinson's EC2000 BattleSet)
* Massive library of user created scenarios

Harpoon Classic 2005 (HC2005) Features

* WestPac battleset
* Land Units (AD Fixed, AD Mobile, Armored, UnArmored) partial implementation
* Neutral and Unknown (indeterminate) sides partial implementation
* Replaced Radar model, much better variability in detection ranges is possible, stealth modeling.
* Area ECM upgraded.
* Improved SARH logic
* Improved AI aircraft AAW evasion
* Increased weapons types per loadout/multimount
* SAM Firing rate tweaked
* Additional bug fixes


Some Links for more information for this version,

The Hull

SIM HQ Review of Harpoon 2002 Gold

Harpoon Classic All Versions

Some screen shots


Does this look like an area of potential conflict in todays world to you?





For many more please look here:
Many more screenshots










The Home of the Harpoon series


The Best Harpoon community Site on the Internet!!!



[color=YELLOW]Well I have purchased both of these simulators and can tell you that each has its strengths and weaknesness but both are very good tools to learn about Modern Air & Naval Combat and quite fun at the same time. I hope this helps some of our crowd that want to learn about these things and maybe when the discussion turns heated on which can beat which, you can crank up a scenario and see who was right.




Some other links of similar items in case your interested,



Global Conflict Blue








Janes Fleet Command

Janes Fleet Command MODS








Joint Chiefs Online

external image





Mod Edit: Image size per request from author.

[edit on 17-4-2005 by UM_Gazz]




posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 07:13 PM
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Harpoon is a pos that is as unrealistic as it can get.

If you want a truer experience than I suggest you try games like Fleet Command or Dangerous Waters. Both of them are much closer to what you would see in the real world.

The Navy used to issue copies of Fleet Command as a teaching tool, never saw them do that with any of the Harpoon series.



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND
Harpoon is a pos that is as unrealistic as it can get.

If you want a truer experience than I suggest you try games like Fleet Command or Dangerous Waters. Both of them are much closer to what you would see in the real world.

The Navy used to issue copies of Fleet Command as a teaching tool, never saw them do that with any of the Harpoon series.


Well Dangerous Waters is a 'different' style game, more like a flight sim.


As for your Fleet Command comment, obviously you don't know what your speaking about. I like Fleet Command including the new V18 Mod from Naval Simulations but it is no Harpoon, trust me. Have you ever played the Harpoon series? I would guess not by your comments.

The Fleet Command game has one thing going for it, 'eye candy'. But the guts are just not right and they can not be by design. When an F-14D takes out 3 MiG 21's with Phoenix Missiles, then you know it isn't right.

Now I would argue that Harpoon 2002 has a markedly improved AI than the old Harpoon Classic and Harpoon 97, and from experience I know it does. But Harpoon 3 is so far and above in accuracy, especially if you use the DB2000 from the Harpoon Headquarters.

The US Navy did NOT 'officially' use Fleet Command in the manner in which you speak, but the Australian Navy DOES use Harpoon 3, hell they paid for it! The US Navy also looked at Harpoon 3 for use as a tool but decided what they have in house was better. As a civilian, you can not get more accurate than Harpoon 3 unless you use Harpoon 4 the Board Game. I have friends in the Navy and they all would agree, if you want a game then Go Fleet Command or Harpoon 2002, but if you want a Sim, then Harpoon 3 is the only game in town right now.


And just so you understand what I mean,



After 30 years of highly accomplished service, the U.S. Navy retired its first long-range air-to-air missile, the AIM-54 Phoenix, 30 September 2004. One of the world's most technologically advanced tactical missiles, the AIM-54 Phoenix was the first operational radar-guided air-to-air missile that could be launched in multiple numbers against different targets from an aircraft, making the Phoenix the Navy's main fleet air defense long-range weapon.

The AIM-54 Phoenix Missile was developed in the 1970s as the principle long-range, air-to-air, defense armament of the F-14 Aircraft. The AIM-54 Phoenix Missile is a fielded weapon currently in Phase III, the Production, Fielding/Deployment, and Operational Support Phase of the Weapon System Acquisition Process.

These missiles are for Backfires and Cruise Missiles, not highly agile tactical aircraft like a Mig 21.

AIM-54 Phoenix Missile

[edit on 16-4-2005 by edsinger]

[edit on 16-4-2005 by edsinger]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 07:44 PM
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I disagree, and I am in the Navy.

I have seen Fleet Command issued out as a training tool. The US Navy looks at Harpoon the same way as they did with the AEGIS game, it looks good, but it is of no use as a training tool.

Have you even tried to play Dangersous Waters yet? It is nothing like a flight sim at all.

Just out of curiousity, what do your friends in the Navy do?



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
These missiles are for Backfires and Cruise Missiles, not highly agile tactical aircraft like a Mig 21.




It was tested against manuevering targets and successfully intercepted them time after time.

The AIM-54C model with upgrades had no problems with terminal engagement manuevers.

This also begs the question, since when has the MIG-21 been considered a "highly agile aircraft?" Since when did it have a ECM abilty that would allow it to spoof a Phoenix?

[edit on 16/4/05 by COOL HAND]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND
I disagree, and I am in the Navy.

I have seen Fleet Command issued out as a training tool. The US Navy looks at Harpoon the same way as they did with the AEGIS game, it looks good, but it is of no use as a training tool.

Have you even tried to play Dangersous Waters yet? It is nothing like a flight sim at all.

Just out of curiousity, what do your friends in the Navy do?



Well Fleet Command may be better for the 'grunts' to learn the equipment and ID's but the 'brains' underneath leave much to be desired. Don't get me wrong, I do like Fleet Command but like I pointed out, it has big time credibility issues.

Let me say this, I know that last month the US Navy looked at Harpoon 3 MP as a tool, they were not interested but not for the reasons you would suspect.

As for my friends, well I am a member of many on line Naval groups, I was a Nuc in the US Navy in the 80's and I follow Military technology very close. Another example of Fleet Commands short coming is they way it handles CWIS and SAM engagements, it hits the target way to much than would be expected with Shipwrecks or SunBurns.


As for Dangerous Waters? That is a heck of a game, goes right along with what I would suspect from the 688I, Sub Command group. It sure as hell was an improvement over Destroyer Command.



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
As for my friends, well I am a member of many on line Naval groups, I was a Nuc in the US Navy in the 80's and I follow Military technology very close. Another example of Fleet Commands short coming is they way it handles CWIS and SAM engagements, it hits the target way to much than would be expected with Shipwrecks or SunBurns.


Your point is what? Everyone in the Navy knows that Nukes know one thing, Nuclear power. When it comes to the other stuff like weapons and tactics, you'd think you were speaking a foregin language to them.



As for Dangerous Waters? That is a heck of a game, goes right along with what I would suspect from the 688I, Sub Command group. It sure as hell was an improvement over Destroyer Command.


You haven't answered my question yet as to whether or not you actually played it.



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by edsinger
These missiles are for Backfires and Cruise Missiles, not highly agile tactical aircraft like a Mig 21.




It was tested against maneuvering targets and successfully intercepted them time after time.

The AIM-54C model with upgrades had no problems with terminal engagement manuevers.

This also begs the question, since when has the MIG-21 been considered a "highly agile aircraft?" Since when did it have a ECM abilty that would allow it to spoof a Phoenix?


Ah the C version was the best but what I mean by highly agile is that the Phoenix could not 'hit' a aircraft that was small and maneuverable like a Mig 21. And yes they are highly maneuverable compared to a Bear or a Backfire or cruse missile. They are not in the same category as a F-16 or so I will grant that and a Phoenix can damn sure not hit one of those with a half way decent pilot.

The Phoenix uses up its propellant in the first minutes of flight to make speed and is left with nothing to maneuver with. It is part of the reason the the Navy is getting rid of the 14's (which I disagree with btw). Harpoon can show just why relying on the SuperBug for Fleet Defense is iffy at best.

[edit on 16-4-2005 by edsinger]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND

Your point is what? Everyone in the Navy knows that Nukes know one thing, Nuclear power. When it comes to the other stuff like weapons and tactics, you'd think you were speaking a foregin language to them.


You haven't answered my question yet as to whether or not you actually played it.


Well as a NuC I would for the most part agree but not in my case. I do understand weapons systems to some degree, I am no expert but I hold my own in conversations with those that are.

To answer your question, yes. I jumped in a P3 and patrolled for a bit. It is not my idea of a way to spend hours, but don't get me wrong it was really good just like 688I was.

But these are 2 different games, the Dangerous Waters is a more 'local' engagement game whereas Harpoon and Fleet Command are Theater games.

If they would not have cancelled Harpoon 4 we would both be wrong.


Oh yeah, the ECM in Harpoon is much better than Fleet Command. By far as are the sonar models.

[edit on 16-4-2005 by edsinger]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
The Phoenix uses up its propellant in the first minutes of flight to make speed and is left with nothing to maneuver with. It is part of the reason the the Navy is getting rid of the 14's (which I disagree with btw). Harpoon can show just why relying on the SuperBug for Fleet Defense is iffy at best.

[edit on 16-4-2005 by edsinger]


No, it does not.

It has movable surfaces that allowed it to manuever at all speed ranges. It is capable of pulling more G's than any aircraft out there.



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
Well as a NuC I would for the most part agree but not in my case. I do understand weapons systems to some degree, I am no expert but I hold my own in conversations with those that are.


Were you an officer, or enlisted. It is important for me to know that before I start making some assumptions on your part. Also, when did you serve?



To answer your question, yes. I jumped in a P3 and patrolled for a bit. It is not my idea of a way to spend hours, but don't get me wrong it was really good just like 688I was.


Where did you get your copy of the game at?



But these are 2 different games, the Dangerous Waters is a more 'local' engagement game whereas Harpoon and Fleet Command are Theater games.

It depends on how you set the game up. You can create your own scenarios and make them cover much more space than the pre set missions.



If they would not have cancelled Harpoon 4 we would both be wrong.

We will probably never know.



Oh yeah, the ECM in Harpoon is much better than Fleet Command. By far as are the sonar models.



You base that statement on what?

[edit on 16/4/05 by COOL HAND]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND

No, it does not.

It has movable surfaces that allowed it to manuever at all speed ranges. It is capable of pulling more G's than any aircraft out there.


Agreed but no Propellant is left at range. More maneuverable than any aircraft? Oh hell yes, but at the end of a 70 mile flight against a maneuvering target, well lets just say the odds decrease dramatically.




Originally posted by COOL HANDWhere you an officer, or enlisted. It is important for me to know that before I start making some assumptions on your part. Also, when did you serve?


Enlisted - Reagan Years



Originally posted by COOL HANDWhere did you get your copy of the game at?


Online why?




Originally posted by COOL HANDIt depends on how you set the game up. You can create your own scenarios and make them cover much more space than the pre set missions.


True but you can not have a FLEET on FLEET encounter. I think you misunderstand me here, In no way can Harpoon type game model a Seawolf for instance like a Sub Command can. They are two different animals. Have you ever played Harpoon 2002 or Harpoon 3?




Originally posted by COOL HAND
We will probably never know.


Sadly you are probably right but maybe not......there are rumors!


Originally posted by COOL HAND

You base that statement on what?


On the base calculations , in Fleet Command when it first came out you couldn't even load a Phoenix on it? remember that one? Well the guys at NWS have done a wonderful job with it but it still lacks the 'feel' of realism. Weapons do not miss in Fleet Command and if you think a 14 loaded out with 4 Phoenix's and shot all 4 at Mig21's that all 4 would hit at 50 miles just will not happen in real life and yet it did to me 2 days ago. Hell with 14's in the air all I had to do was launch missles and land and repeat.

Hell even an older game like US Navy Fighters (one of my Favs) you only had a 35% POK with a Mig 21 sized maneuverable target.






[edit on 16-4-2005 by edsinger]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 08:31 PM
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I own the new version of Harpoon Classic and am saving up money to get Harpoon 3.

Two of my all-time favorite games and some of the best ever. It really opened my eyes to just how dangerous the Soviet military was during the Cold War and our small chances of success.



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
I own the new version of Harpoon Classic and am saving up money to get Harpoon 3.

Two of my all-time favorite games and some of the best ever. It really opened my eyes to just how dangerous the Soviet military was during the Cold War and our small chances of success.


Well it is good you are holding off a bit on H3, MP is not quite ready yet but soon will be from what I hear and I hear it is damn fun.

Yeah the old Cold War battesets was one of the best, there are a few HC2002 scenarios like that also. Plus H2002 has the Western Battleset now as a beta that I downloaded and it isnt bad at all.



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
Agreed but no Propellant is left at range. More maneuverable than any aircraft? Oh hell yes, but at the end of a 70 mile flight against a maneuvering target, well lets just say the odds decrease dramatically.

That is why they gave it a proximity detonator.



Enlisted - Reagan Years

Thanks, it was what I had thought.




Originally posted by COOL HANDWhere did you get your copy of the game at?


Online why?

Did you get the manual with it or not? Did you download it from them?




True but you can not have a FLEET on FLEET encounter. I think you misunderstand me here, In no way can Harpoon type game model a Seawolf for instance like a Sub Command can. They are two different animals. Have you ever played Harpoon 2002 or Harpoon 3?

Yes, I have played them all. The thing I do not like about Harpoon is that it is not set up like the real thing. The button locations are all wrong, the commands are all wrong, the enviroment has no bearing on you. I could go on for hours about how little I like the game and what is wrong with it.





We will probably never know.


Sadly you are probably right but maybe not......there are rumors!

As far as I am concerned, it is on life support.


On the base calculations , in Fleet Command when it first came out you couldn't even load a Phoenix on it? remember that one? Well the guys at NWS have done a wonderful job with it but it still lacks the 'feel' of realism. Weapons do not miss in Fleet Command and if you think a 14 loaded out with 4 Phoenix's and shot all 4 at Mig21's that all 4 would hit at 50 miles just will not happen in real life and yet it did to me 2 days ago. Hell with 14's in the air all I had to do was launch missles and land and repeat.


Well, the fact that the reload times in Harpoon were so incredibly short, just made it seem far less real to me. There is no way you could have reload times like that in the real world.

The ASW portion of Harpoon has always been crap. The displays are not even close to realistic. I like to see a waterfall display that is at least close to what I would expect when I do ASW work against a real sub in the real world.

[edit on 16/4/05 by COOL HAND]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 08:53 PM
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The US Navy looks at Harpoon the same way as they did with the AEGIS game, it looks good, but it is of no use as a training tool.


Actually I am pretty sure the USNR used Harpoon II as a training tool.
I remember reading it on the back of the box


Fleet Command has better pretty graphics & such, but the platform DB's and sensor modeling in the Harpoon series is a bit more advanced. Plus it has a display system configurable to resemble both current Aegis and the older OJ-663 displays. I prefer the formation & mission editors in H2/H3, you can automate patrols and strikes and the like, really helps in big scenarios.

Both are definately very enjoyable sims though.



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND

That is why they gave it a proximity detonator.


All A2A Missles have Proximity warheads. Whats your point? It still has to be damn close for a kill.


Originally posted by COOL HAND

Enlisted - Reagan Years

Thanks, it was what I had thought.


And why did you think that? Keep in mind that I know much more now about the subject than then....believe me.




Originally posted by COOL HANDWhere did you get your copy of the game at?
Online why?Did you get the manual with it or not? Did you download it from them?
The manual was your ususal PDF one but I have already got rid of the game as it was not what I expected. Nothing wrong with it by any means just not my style.


Originally posted by COOL HAND
Yes, I have played them all. The thing I do not like about Harpoon is that it is not set up like the real thing. The button locations are all wrong, the commands are all wrong, the enviroment has no bearing on you. I could go on for hours about how little I like the game and what is wrong with it.


Which one? Harpoon 3 has custom settings for that and does have weather etc, sea state, and keep in mind that it is 10 years old and still has no peer.


Originally posted by COOL HAND


We will probably never know.

Sadly you are probably right but maybe not......there are rumors!
As far as I am concerned, it is on life support.


Well for the short term yes but it is not dead. Ubisofts involvement is though. The French screwed it up again.



Originally posted by COOL HANDWell, the fact that the reload times in Harpoon were so incredibly short, just made it seem far less real to me. There is no way you could have reload times like that in the real world.


What? have you played the latest versions? Crap the 1998 version yes but the new one has CUSTOM load times, if you are just getting fuel then a few minutes but if you want strike packages you will be waiting a few hours. I to hated that for years and would try to discipline myself but now there is no need.


Harpoon 3 is the vastly improved Windows (Windows 95, 98, ME, NT 4.0, Windows 2000 and Windows XP) and Mac (OS and OSX) version of Harpoon II. Harpoon 3 for PC was released in mid-February 2002 while Harpoon 3 for Macintosh was released back in 2001. The simulator contains a myriad of new features and bug fixes, too numerous to mention all. Here are some:
- full compatibility with existing Harpoon II scenarios and databases.
- 10x - 12x improvement in game speed over Harpoon II.
- the ability to run in a window (Windows-version only, not Mac).
- supports resolution up to 1280 x 1024 x 256.
- custom ready times for aircraft (March 2003 - a truly revolutionary feature in the sim world!).
- New electronic warfare model (July 2004, the DB2000 database was updated accordingly).
- fully-implemented After-Action Log.
- re-mapped hotkeys for laptop computers, 'alternative' hotkeys added for non-English keyboards.
- Movie Maker; when activated, Harpoon3 automatically takes screenshots at selected intervals (January 2003).
- Shape/GIS (Geographic Information System); add geographical data to your scenarios (December 2002).
- nuclear weapons fully work.
- rate-of-fire bug fixed.
- thermal layer works.
- terrain-following works.
- random radar fringe bug fixed.
- highlight- and order problems for waypoints solved.
- critical Mount underrun bug fixed.
- Ship fuel state quirks fixed.
- Torps can now be fired under ice.

Harpoon HQ What is Harpoon 3 DB 2000?



Originally posted by COOL HAND
The ASW portion of Harpoon has always been crap. The displays are not even close to realistic. I like to see a waterfall display that is at least close to what I would expect when I do ASW work against a real sub in the real world.


Well here I would agree you do not have a waterfall display but you have the options of playing 'super' real where you can not even communicate in realtime with subs but I never play that way although I should. the Sonar models have been redone and is much harder, Especially in 2002 they are down right nasty.



[edit on 16-4-2005 by edsinger]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 09:07 PM
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Fleet command is too unrealistic to be even considered a sim! You have planes flying at Mach 2+ at sea level, accelerating to top speed and reaching ceiling in a matter of seconds, not able to carry any bombs whatsoever, firing their guns like pistols, etc. The missiles have unlimited motor burn time, not slowing down when they're supposed to be (when motor runs out of fuel), and automatically self destructing when they fly outside range circle even when they have sufficient speed to down a plane. Some anti ship missiles deviate from their intended targets and instead tracks a different target that's closer. Missile engagement profiles are completely wrong. Ships firing their main guns at planes flying at 20000 ft

The list of unrealistic faults are endless. It's more a game than a sim.



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
All A2A Missles have Proximity warheads. Whats your point? It still has to be damn close for a kill.

No foolin', but at least you do not have to get a skin to skin for a kill. That is why you can get hits on a manuevering contact with the Phoenix.



And why did you think that? Keep in mind that I know much more now about the subject than then....believe me.

Because you speak like someone who has never used the real equipment.


Which one? Harpoon 3 has custom settings for that and does have weather etc, sea state, and keep in mind that it is 10 years old and still has no peer.


Sea state has no effect on your speed, or the enviroment when you are doing your ASW work. Nor does it prevent you from launching aircraft or missiles in any Harpoon game.



Well for the short term yes but it is not dead. Ubisofts involvement is though. The French screwed it up again.

I agree with you on that.



What? have you played the latest versions? Crap the 1998 version yes but the new one has CUSTOM load times, if you are just getting fuel then a few minutes but if you want strike packages you will be waiting a few hours. I to hated that for years and would try to discipline myself but now there is no need.

Why can't they just use the real load times in the game? DW has two settings for that. One for near instant, and the second for realistic.



Harpoon 3 is the vastly improved Windows (Windows 95, 98, ME, NT 4.0, Windows 2000 and Windows XP) and Mac (OS and OSX) version of Harpoon II. Harpoon 3 for PC was released in mid-February 2002 while Harpoon 3 for Macintosh was released back in 2001. The simulator contains a myriad of new features and bug fixes, too numerous to mention all. Here are some:
- full compatibility with existing Harpoon II scenarios and databases.
- 10x - 12x improvement in game speed over Harpoon II.
- the ability to run in a window (Windows-version only, not Mac).
- supports resolution up to 1280 x 1024 x 256.
- custom ready times for aircraft (March 2003 - a truly revolutionary feature in the sim world!).
- New electronic warfare model (July 2004, the DB2000 database was updated accordingly).
- fully-implemented After-Action Log.
- re-mapped hotkeys for laptop computers, 'alternative' hotkeys added for non-English keyboards.
- Movie Maker; when activated, Harpoon3 automatically takes screenshots at selected intervals (January 2003).
- Shape/GIS (Geographic Information System); add geographical data to your scenarios (December 2002).
- nuclear weapons fully work.
- rate-of-fire bug fixed.
- thermal layer works.
- terrain-following works.
- random radar fringe bug fixed.
- highlight- and order problems for waypoints solved.
- critical Mount underrun bug fixed.
- Ship fuel state quirks fixed.
- Torps can now be fired under ice.

Harpoon HQ What is Harpoon 3 DB 2000?


Geez, what are you? A salesman for them?



Well here I would agree you do not have a waterfall display but you have the options of playing 'super' real where you can not even communicate in realtime with subs but I never play that way although I should. the Sonar models have been redone and is much harder, Especially in 2002 they are down right nasty.


The sonar models are not even close to what you see in the real world. Hell, you can't even get realistic performance out of your towed array sonar.




[edit on 16/4/05 by COOL HAND]



posted on Apr, 16 2005 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND
No foolin', but at least you do not have to get a skin to skin for a kill. That is why you can get hits on a manuevering contact with the Phoenix.


But notice I said 'proximity' fuse, at 500mph you had better be damn near skin on skin.


And why did you think that? Keep in mind that I know much more now about the subject than then....believe me.
Because you speak like someone who has never used the real equipment.

Well I guess so......Just becuase I havent flown the good old 14, doesnt mean that I know that Phoenix's are not for Mig21's, if they were why did the Libyans get Sparrow's? And I would argue that a Mig21 is just as nimble as a Mig23.

Well?




Originally posted by COOL HANDSea state has no effect on your speed, or the enviroment when you are doing your ASW work. Nor does it prevent you from launching aircraft or missiles.


Well you are correct there and Fleet Command does?




Originally posted by COOL HANDWhy can't they just use the real load times in the game? DW has two settings for that. One for near instant, and the second for realistic.


They are custom and the Scen designer will add it in according to the situation. This one has unlimited different load times, at the designers whim.


Originally posted by COOL HANDGeez, what are you? A salesman for them?


Nope, paid for mine and will by them as they come, just an old time Pooner from the mid 90's. I just really enjoy the game and in ATS there are so many China vs Taiwan, India vs Pakistan, etc etc etc F-15 vs SU-30 etc etc etc, and this is a way that some of the questions can be answered with some degree of realism.



Originally posted by COOL HANDThe sonar models are not even close to what you see in the real world. Hell, you can't even get realistic performance out of your towed array sonar.


Well wouldn't we both love to play with the Database that the Aussies are using for the sim
Really if it has been a while since you played it, I would think it would be worth a re-look on your part. A whole bunch of the game has been redone, it even has 'nukes' now. You seem to be the type that would put it to good use. Maybe when Multiplayer comes out we can go a round.......


[edit on 16-4-2005 by edsinger]



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