Definitely a current issue: Was early Christianity communist?

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: rickymouse
I consider early Christianity as a more socialist society thing. But there was some community effect to it to. Communities that work together is actually a type of communism intigrated in sectors of our society...

My point was, socialism and communism seek communalism as an end to itself.

What if the point of the early communities was to save anyone who would otherwise have been marginalized into a sinful and exploitative lifestyle?

Such as for example those few rock stars of today who became hooked on drugs and homeless before they started to put on shows. What if they had a society to go to which would help them not become marginalized, which would help them say no, which would help them eat without doing disgusting work for which drugs are necessary, etc.

It doesn't say so, but then again, the New Testament rarely spells everything out.

Our society in America is capitalism. The sign of commerce or trade is the Caduceus which is the sign of Hermes. Our society actually is not based off Christianity in the USA because capitalism was not something that the person renamed Jesus would have supported. I would say that he along with others like him through the ages were messiahs. But Christianity would never admit that there were other messiahs since then because Christianity was forced to work with the powerful empires in history to survive. It is now getting a little better, during the dark ages, it turned really bad, having to follow the bidding of the people that ruled the masses...doing opposite what Jesus preached in order to stay alive.

I do like a lot of the doctrines of true Christianity even though I probably would be shunned now by most of the churches because my beliefs do not match theirs anymore. Yet my beliefs match pretty much with what Jesus taught.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Gothmog

Was early Christianity communist?

In the strict definition of communism , which stems from commune , yes.
As we think of communism today ? Hail to the no.

Yeah I believe this is true. Isn't it funny though how evil always takes the name of good things and turns it upside down? Like living together in a community sharing your talents independent of any government ordinances sounds fantastic, but now communism has become synonymous with a government takeover mechanism under the guise of good intentions.

This is so very true.
I had a civics teacher in school that explained why communism, in it's purest form, would be the best "political system".
But stated communism could never work as it would become a totalitarian government due to the evilness of people.

Perhaps one day when the world grows up......

originally posted by: ITSALIVE
Sorry, but this idea isn’t nearly as important or as interesting as you may hope.
Communism wasn’t around until far after Jesus Christ.
To pretend Christianity was following communism is laughable.
The same communism that does not want organized religion.
The same Christianity that is a religion, not a structure of governmental taxation and services

Just want to add
Christianity is non political
Christianity depends on individual choice and freewill
Christianity teaches to give from love, Christianity’s motives are love (not duty, but it is a duty)
For that time and that church, a certain degree of self sacrifice was necessary
Christianity (shouldn’t) has no leadership based on controlling other than serving
Christianity should never be forced
Christianity worships God not the group or leadership
Christians are also commanded to love their enemies

Most Christians and churches don’t represent true Christianity anymore, so the comparison is fair, just not reflected in the gospel and teachings of the true church

Jesus said many would call on His name and He would reply, I do not know you

Actually Christianity is a monarchy/ theocracy with those resurrected in Ye'shua as a class of rulers and judges
1 Cor 6:3
"Do you not know that we are to judge angels?"
2 TIMOTHY 2:11–13
“This saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him”
Rev. 5:9,10
"For thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. "

When scripture says they had all things in common it alluded to generosity, compassion and equal standing before YHVH...not conscription!

I think people conflate communal with communist.

originally posted by: Solvedit
Recently a thread appeared in the History subforum about whether the intent of Christianity was communistic. The issue’s importance goes far beyond history.

Some of the ways the early Christian communities conducted themselves strikes some as communist.

Modern Lithuanian speech is the closest thing to the Proto-Indo-European upon which the languages of Europe, North Africa, and West Asia are based. It is possible at least a few people in the middle East spoke similar languages.

The term magic used to not refer to miraculous powers but to the practice of trying to apply an existing pattern to some undertaking. A person tasked with providing patterns, if they spoke any near relative of proto-Indo-European, might call their job “Magijos Dalinimas” because “dalint” means to distribute.

If they were named for their profession, they might have been called “Mag-dalina.”

It is speculated Mary Magdalene was named for the town of Magdala but it need not be so, or it is possible the town was a center of people involved in “Mag-Dalinimas.”

It is said they had to drive out seven demons from Mary Magdalene.

Perhaps back then they used whatever means necessary to form an unhealthy rapport that might have seemed like possession to those not in the know. It seems possible some of the people in Roman-governed Judea practiced other religions, perhaps Babylonian ones.

In some places, they still try to pressure people into the life of an entertainer so they could use their intelligence to educate the masses.
As for the allegedly communistic practices of early Christian communities, it seems possible that the price of admission was to give your all to help others like Mary Magdalene before they were marginalized into a sinful lifestyle, because they were probably being blacklisted from work.

The timing on this thread couldn't be better. Just last night my wife was asking me why the evangelicals in the US were hardcore Republicans when the tenants of Christianity quite clearly more closely with the Democrats than the the Republicans. Except for Abortions. That's the sore thumb that doesn't fit nicely.

Christianity is all about people helping people.

Left wing political ideologies are based on the tenant that "the group is more important than the individual" and that we should all we can to help each other out/society. Rights/freedoms of the group supercede the rights of the individuals

"It takes a village to raise a child"
"Socialized Healthcare" (like we have here in Canada)

Right wing political ideologies are all about you being accountable for you, and caring very little about the overall group/society. Personal rights/freedoms being above the rights of group, etc.

So yeah, to me, Christianity doesn't align with much on the right wing side of things, other than abortions.

originally posted by: TheValeyard
"Yes, this isn't enough, we're still hungry, but we are all holding something now, and if we shared like this all the time, then it WOULD be enough! Now turn and get to know the people around you! Fellowship! Mankind is a family! Family shares at the same table!"

Get it now?

I have got the conclusion you leaped to based on appearances.

Communism. No magic trick, no friggin miracle, just a boldly made point, that is lost on almost everyone.

It is an altar not a table and the point of Mass used to quite clearly be to be a part of the sacrifice of Calvary, not to emphasize sharing.

In ancient Hebrew times, they would sacrifice an animal for peoples' sins and the people had to eat of the sacrifice in order to count themselves included. It was what became the Mass.

The point was to regain your soul.


Being made to burn incense before an image of a Roman god or emperor....now there's a symbol of forced sharing....to say nothing of Lupercalia.

originally posted by: CanadianLoudMouth

Christianity is all about people helping people.

Not saving your soul?

originally posted by: TheValeyardDid it REALLY never occur to people that maybe the dude was a idealist and a philosopher, and that they started
with SOME bread and fish, and he broke them up into the TINIEST possible rations just to make a point?

Whether or not you are right about what it means, it simply doesn't say so.

It quite plainly said they ate their fill and several baskets of leftovers were gathered.

originally posted by: Gothmog
In the strict definition of communism , which stems from commune , yes.

What if the point was not to establish communalism as a way of life?

What if the point was to protect the spiritually exploited until prayer had produced a just society which did not allow blacklisting people into jobs that made them both rich and possessed by seven demons?

Maybe they hoped the need for communities would fall away.

a reply to: Phallacy

"The meek shall inherit the earth".

Conflate me that, dear wealthy Evangelicals?

originally posted by: Insurrectile
a reply to: Phallacy

"The meek shall inherit the earth".

Conflate me that, dear wealthy Evangelicals?

Does "meek" mean "poor?"

originally posted by: ITSALIVE
Sorry, but this idea isn’t nearly as important or as interesting as you may hope. Communism wasn’t around until far after Jesus Christ. To pretend Christianity was following communism is laughable. The same communism that does not want organized religion. The same Christianity that is a religion, not a structure of governmental taxation and services.

Your whole idea falls flat.

a reply to: Solvedit

Your point is pedantry. There was no political system called "communism" in the first century. That doesn't stop communists from claiming early Christianity had a similar spirit.

originally posted by: Insurrectile
a reply to: Phallacy

"The meek shall inherit the earth".

Conflate me that, dear wealthy Evangelicals?

you do know it means disposition in terms of being gentle its talks to attitude not wealth..

English is fascinating especially early words we no longer use, ruthful came before ruthless ruthful means understanding/ being companionate..

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: ITSALIVE
Sorry, but this idea isn’t nearly as important or as interesting as you may hope. Communism wasn’t around until far after Jesus Christ. To pretend Christianity was following communism is laughable. The same communism that does not want organized religion. The same Christianity that is a religion, not a structure of governmental taxation and services.

Your whole idea falls flat.

a reply to: Solvedit

Your point is pedantry. There was no political system called "communism" in the first century. That doesn't stop communists from claiming early Christianity had a similar spirit.

That’s not what’s happening. Communists are not claiming Christianity has a similar spirit to communism… a similar “spirit”? That’s sure vague and leaves a lot of interpretation to be had. Communism has a spirit at all? Like capitalism, the only spirit they hold is in relation to money and power.

Let’s role with similar in spirit whatever that means (anything one wants it to). Are Christian’s communists now? No! They are Christian. Funny enough, nationals with the highest amount of Christian’s are… capitalists! Is communist China now a Christian nation?

So it’s not communism period. Your point is ignorant.

a reply to: ITSALIVE

its just another sign we are repeating the 1960s/70s, that tried really hard to not just rewrite history but write themselves into that history.. it didn't work then nor will it now.. the more extreme end up fading as they have no real depth to stay the course..

It depends on what point you decide is "early Christianity"

I believe the 12 apostles were called "Christians" while Christ was still alive. At that time they would not have been Communists. Christ resented money and he let Judas handle the money bag. When they had to pay tax, he told his disicples to go catch a fish and there would be coin in the fish's mouth. The only time Christ became violent was when he drove the money-changers out of the Temple. He wanted nothing to do with it.

However when it came to resources - Christ was still not communist. Where as Communism in theory tries to divide resources up equally amongst the common people (in practice it enriches the party leaders and looks no different from fascism) what Christ did was completely different from communism, fascism, or capitalism.

Christ provided resources in abundance to all who followed him. He fed thousands of people with fish and bread in the desert, far more than could possibly have been fed with only a handful of fish and loaves. When everyone had eaten their fill and they took up the scraps, they filled up more baskets of food than the number of food items they started with.

Christ provided to everyone in abundance and no political ideology has ever accomplished that. Abundance = in excess. More than what every single person needed. You can find needy people in the USA right now. There are tens of millions of them. The supposedly most prosperous country on Earth.

After Matthew/Mark/Luke/John and your start reading the book of Acts which is the time period after Christ ascended. Suddenly things change.

The disciples ask all their followers to sell their houses and all their possessions and give the disciples the money. When a old man decides to keep some of the money for himself, the disciples strike him dead with the power of God. When his widow comes in not knowing what happened, they struck her dead as well. The book then claims they divided up the money equally and provded for everyone equally.

My thoughts = this was roughly the same as communism. I also suspect it was wicked, and the disciples abused the power that was vested in them. I take note that in the modern day there aren't any miraculous powers like this anymore. Pastors can't strike people dead with the power of God. Faith healing doesn't work, and churches universally beg for donations and some even brow-beat and guilt trip their congregations to get money. Why? Because money is where the real power is. Without money these "churches" wouldn't exist.

My thought is that the abuse of whatever power was given to them caused that power to be taken away from them, and that's why we don't have great prophets walking around with miraculous powers like the disciples had in their time.

Now later on when the Catholic church would take form, it was theocracy which is basically just fascism with a thin veil of religion as an excuse.

So IMO Christ provided true prosperity and abundance, and he used supernatural powers to make that happen. Everything since, even what has existed in his name, has been wicked and failed to represent whatever ideology he believed in.

originally posted by: TheValeyard
UGH SO MUCH MENTAL GYMNASTICS in this thread just to justify people's corporate greed.
Yes, the literary figure of Je'shua Bin Josef, who you all mistakenly call "Jeesus", as described in your book,
was most definitely a Socialist, and probably would have been fine with being called a communist too.

He hated rich people and literally said they weren't going to heaven, he wrecked the booths of the "money-changers",
he evenly distributed bread and fish among crowds, he had sympathy for people who'd had to steal to survive,
and was totally anti-establishment to boot. The whole concept of "Not being worldly" revolved around not being greedy, and making sure other people had what they needed and were doing okay. Service to others before yourself.
That mentality simply does not jive with modern day capitalism, and I'm not sure if it jived with any form of it from any era, even the sugarpop 50s tradwife era.

You don't have to like it, but if you can't get over it, then you're definitely not a Christian, because the red letters weren't important enough for you to read and comprehend them.

Go ahead, cope harder. This shouldn't even be contraversal, and it's really sad anyone thinks it's a valid debate.
He WAS. You don't want him to be, because you're greedy, but he WAS.

Hating money doesn't make you communist. Every communist regime has also used money. One common tool they have all tried to use is to fix the prices of goods in order to prevent capitalist price discovery.

a reply to: Solvedit

What if the point was to protect the spiritually exploited until prayer had produced a just society which did not allow blacklisting people into jobs that made them both rich and possessed by seven demons?

This seems to be your basic thesis.

Like TV or Youtube Celebrities, or even mega church ministers. Not being their genuine self but knowingly lying, false persona. Then maybe that's why Ιεσους used the word hypocrite in such a pejorative way. I used to wonder what he had against actors. Play actors know when they are acting and when they aren't. Other people acting may be deluded into thinking they are who they are not(seven demons).

I've known actors who were not possessed of seven demons, and pastors who were possessed of seven demons. I'm just using seven demons as a term because you are. I don't go around saying people are possessed by seven demons. That wouldn't go over very well.

originally posted by: Solvedit

originally posted by: CanadianLoudMouth

Christianity is all about people helping people.

Not saving your soul?

Sure. But if you look at the teachings of Christianity, and stories from the Bible (just as an example), the stories in there are about people helping one another.