A Legitimate Question ...

I got to wondering today:

If "gender" is a social construct and has no real meaning, pariticularly in relation to one's genetic and physical attributes;

That is to say that having XY chromosomes and a penis or XX chromosomes and a vagina are meaningless;

If one's physical attributes do not define one's gender and one can be whatever one wants or feels regardless of what their genetic and physical makeup are;

Why is attermpting to physically alter one's external equipment somehow "affirming." If that equipment does not define one why must it be surgically or medically revised?

There seems to be a major contradiction there. On the one hand, having or not having a certain set of equpiment does not define who and what I am. On the other hand, an attempt to surgically alter that equpiment does define who and what I am.

If there is, for example, no definition for what a woman is, how does having my penis surgically removed make me more of a woman?

I think that these are legitimate questions. I expect the regular crowd of trolls to personally attack me, accuse me of having voyeuristic interest in other people's sexuality, etc., etc., etc. (We all know the tropes.) I'll ignore them as those people simply throw fits because they have no legitimate answer to questions like these. If, however, you do haver a cogent, well thought out, logical answer, I'd like to hear it.

a reply to: incoserv

I feel like individuals get surgery in the hopes that they will feel more whole afterwards, or have a better quality of life.

It reminds me of how each sex has qualities of the other. Idk, like Tomboys tend to be females who express themselves in a more masculine sense, or vice a versa. I did not pay much attention to that before having children.

It reminds me about how as a parent, spending time with my girls I would often be reminded about the good qualities I admire in their mother.

Like for example when the girls talk to me about decorating ideas or try to speak to me about relationships. When their mom is not around for various reasons, I wish I could be more like her. I admire her qualities and what she has taught me all around, but more specifically times like that remind me to work on my feminine side.

a reply to: incoserv

Gender IS a social construct, and it does have significant meaning within the context of society.

It is (or should be) therefore understandable that one's external appearance, the persona which one presents to society, and through which society interacts with one, congruently match one's self identity. Especially where something as intrinsically personal as one's gender is concerned.


Why is is so difficult for some in our supposedly "advanced" society to acknowledge, and respect, a concept which has been long considered, and celebrated, among a number of human cultures throughout history?

a reply to: incoserv

Mantiss2021 is right. The fact that gender is a social construct does not imply that it is meaningless on the one hand or that it can mean any arbitrary thing at all, on the other hand. Because it is a social construct (actually a kind of social contract, IMHO) it will mean whatever it can evolve to mean. That implies that it doesn't have to mean the same thing today that it did 50 or 100 years ago or that it will mean 50 or 100 years in the future.

Conservatives, of course, don't like that because they want nothing important to ever change in the future. That, of course, is the one future you can guarantee is not going to come to pass.

a reply to: Mantiss2021

I wasnt aware that any of those cultures used drugs and surgery to try to change a persons 'gender'. They didn't even know about DNA, XX, XY or any of that. So they just dressed and acted differently, which has been going on forever, I'm sure.

Maybe we are too 'smart' now and think mutilation is medicine.

originally posted by: CoyoteAngels
a reply to: Mantiss2021

I wasnt aware that any of those cultures used drugs and surgery to try to change a persons 'gender'. They didn't even know about DNA, XX, XY or any of that. So they just dressed and acted differently, which has been going on forever, I'm sure.

Maybe we are too 'smart' now and think mutilation is medicine.

That get to the crux of the conumdrum.

a reply to: Mantiss2021

Ah, but does one walk around in public showing the body parts in question? I think clothing is almost universally required in society with a few exceptions. So why do the body mutilations when a change of wordrobe and a few available prosthetic items will make anyone appear as they wish, within reason. Like one costume maker stated 'we can add anything you want but we cannot make you smaller'.

I am familiar with many types of costumes and have ran across these while working with mermaids. Some, like me, were happy being mermen. Others wanted to be mermaids. To each their own.

My problem with the surgical transitions, especially with children is what happens when they change their mind? A boy can be a girl this week but then a dinosaur next week and a cat the next.

An adult might want to be the other sex for a while but when they find they have not really achieved their precived benefit they become worse off than when they started. The grass always looks greener on the other side of the lawn.

I don't care if someone dresses the part except for a few unhealthy reasons. Like just for a guy to get into the women's restroom or for a guy to win records in a woman's sport. Neather should be allowed.

I do see a lot of people making a good deal of money from all this mutilation. And they don't even tell the person they are not going to be able to have children afterwards.

Call me what you will. When you are down to calling names as a argument, you really have no argument left.

originally posted by: incoserv
I got to wondering today:

If "gender" is a social construct and has no real meaning, pariticularly in relation to one's genetic and physical attributes;

That is to say that having XY chromosomes and a penis or XX chromosomes and a vagina are meaningless;

If one's physical attributes do not define one's gender and one can be whatever one wants or feels regardless of what their genetic and physical makeup are;

Why is attermpting to physically alter one's external equipment somehow "affirming." If that equipment does not define one why must it be surgically or medically revised?

There seems to be a major contradiction there. On the one hand, having or not having a certain set of equpiment does not define who and what I am. On the other hand, an attempt to surgically alter that equpiment does define who and what I am.

If there is, for example, no definition for what a woman is, how does having my penis surgically removed make me more of a woman?

I think that these are legitimate questions. I expect the regular crowd of trolls to personally attack me, accuse me of having voyeuristic interest in other people's sexuality, etc., etc., etc. (We all know the tropes.) I'll ignore them as those people simply throw fits because they have no legitimate answer to questions like these. If, however, you do haver a cogent, well thought out, logical answer, I'd like to hear it.

Why do some people harp on about how other people are supposed to be?

a reply to: chr0naut

Why do some people harp on about what they think that others would want them to be like?

a reply to: incoserv

God bless your heart!

What you're trying to do is sort through and understand the ravings of a lunatic class of individuals. They are a disease, literally. Our society has become exponentially stupider over the last 20 or so years due to this BS that was put at the forefront of K-12 curriculums. Most parents had no clue.

All sorts of absolutely ridiculous and asinine theories and lies have been said over and over again in our schools until they were believed and then they set their foot soldiers out to SHAME the world into submitting to their madness.

It kind of actually worked but it won't stick because it's insane. The universe will self correct, people are pushing back because filth is filthy. They forgot that but are coming out of their tolerance comas, presently.

originally posted by: beyondknowledge2
a reply to: chr0naut

Why do some people harp on about what they think that others would want them to be like?

Well that's another way of saying it...

Perhaps they are living their fantasies vicariously through their imagination that everyone gives a damn?

I mean, for instance, why would anyone go out of their way to get violent with someone who is 'different', except that they want to physically touch the object of their "dark" desires?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: beyondknowledge2
a reply to: chr0naut

Why do some people harp on about what they think that others would want them to be like?

Well that's another way of saying it...

Perhaps they are living their fantasies vicariously through their imagination that everyone gives a damn?

I mean, for instance, why would anyone go out of their way to get violent with someone who is 'different', except that they want to physically touch the object of their "dark" desires?

So, to some, beating someone violently is a form of love or just desire for physical contact? I would not be surprised at this.

Well, Klingon males do recite love poetry while the females throw objects at them. The males duck a lot according to Worf.

If you want to see what gender affirming looks like, go ahead and search on google post operation pics and video. What I have seen doesn't look very helpful at all.

originally posted by: greendust
If you want to see what gender affirming looks like, go ahead and search on google post operation pics and video. What I have seen doesn't look very helpful at all.

Yeah, I've seen a few of those photographs. Stuff of nightmares.

originally posted by: CoyoteAngels
a reply to: Mantiss2021

I wasnt aware that any of those cultures used drugs and surgery to try to change a persons 'gender'. They didn't even know about DNA, XX, XY or any of that. So they just dressed and acted differently, which has been going on forever, I'm sure.

Maybe we are too 'smart' now and think mutilation is medicine.

Perhaps those cultures do not need to use drugs and surgery because they have established a place of acknowledgement, respect, and even honor within the culture for such members of their culture?


Then too, pharmaceutical and surgical procedures to alter the physical appearance to approximate the personal identity are a modern development; multi-gender acknowledgement has been intrinsic to many cultures for centuries, even millennia.

If you imagine that the west is under the control of disgruntled, spiteful man hating pre teen girls, it all becomes clear.

a reply to: incoserv

You are generalizing and need to understand transgendered people and the dysphoria better.

19thnews.org...

We use Android or Apple now but for the past 2000 years we used the "God" operating system. Without any recent updates its confusing to most because for gender identity to exist one must accept that their operating system is flawed?

a reply to: incoserv

A legitimate answer.

a reply to: Mantiss2021

If you want to claim medical mutilation is progress, go on ahead. Cavemen didn't do lobotomies either, but modern medicine did.

I doubt the women let the in-drag cavemen go out in the woods with them when it was their 'time'.

I doubt the women let the in-drag cavemen hang out with them at all.

And how do we even know your theory that they were honored? All we have is bones left, and I don't see any transexuals in the hieroglyphs nor mention of it in the Bible, so I don't think the practice was common, nor honorable.