NEWS: Florida To Allow The Use Of Deadly Force In Self-Defense

[edit on 6-4-2005 by CHANGELING]

Originally posted by subz
Do you trust everyone with a gun in Florida Muaddib?
Lets say some one is delusional. They think their life is in danger because aliens have taken over the World. Lets say he shoots his neighbour to death because he thinks his life is in danger.

What the hell will this law say on the matter? What the hell will a defense lawyer try and contrive this law into? Not guilty purely for mental reasons? No prison sentence due to mental incapacity?

Your scenario has nothing to do with concealed carry or self defense laws. A nut can kill someone whenever they feel like it and no concealed handgun or self defense laws will support or denounce the act, they are two separate beasts.

While it is not as exhausting to purchase a handgun as some may believe (many states have "gun shows" in arenas where dealers barely check to see if you're 21 before selling you a handgun at a low price), to actually get your concealed handgun permit, it takes a 9-hour course which is followed by a test and if you have any felonies or "misdemeanor crimes of character" (DWI, posession of drugs, theft, etc), then you cannot get a license or your license is taken away for 5 years.

If you have any felonies, you cannot ever carry and the most you can own is a shotgun, unless you're on probation or parole, in which case you cannot own any guns whatsoever.

If you are against the legal sale and posession of handguns, that is another issue altogether than the issue of lethal force self defense and the concealed public carry of handguns.

Zip

The point of my example is that the only thing the guy could be charged and prosecuted for is his mental incapacity. As the law enshrines some ones "perception" of a situation as to whether they can use deadly force.

Some people cross the road to avoid walking past a group of black kids. Some people percieve it differently.

Is it so hard to assume that some people might percieve a threat to their life where there really isnt any?

Thats where this law is faulty.

Well, sort of, but in the USA, those who write the laws and those who interpret the laws are a different body of people. We try to write good laws and if cases arise that bring into question some principles or portions of the law and how it applies to the case or situation, then the law can be reviewed by a judge or the case can be reviewed by a jury.

And, then there is Washington D.C. ; most stringent gun laws in the U.S., with L.A. a close second. Crime and murder capital one and two. Anyone afraid of guns in the hands of citizens, should move to one of these locals, where the only guns are in the hands of criminals.

The laws in Florida already allow for use of force in situations where someone has broken into your car or home. This new law or ammendment to the law now allows people to use force anywhere, not just in the home.

This is a completely unnecessary law in my opinion. Why even bother with a police force anymore. Silly american politicians.

Lukefj

Originally posted by marg6043



Look at the minute man in Texas, can you imagine vigilante groups forming in Florida to protect the cities now that the law allowed deadly used of force in self defense?

Oh My Marg has now moved the Minuteman from AZ to Texas

The minuteman headquarters are in Tombstone AZ and the co founder is from CA and they are not I repeat are not vigilantes.

Originally posted by 322432
And, then there is Washington D.C. ; most stringent gun laws in the U.S., with L.A. a close second. Crime and murder capital one and two. Anyone afraid of guns in the hands of citizens, should move to one of these locals, where the only guns are in the hands of criminals.

Having stringent guns laws in only two states and lax to non-existant ones in the rest of the states will entice criminals to said softer states. Why do an armed robbery in Texas and get your head blown off when you can do it Washington and chances are the victim is unarmed. Crime not prevented, just moved.

Now compare US deaths due to firearms to other COUNTRIES with complete control on firearms and the facts speak for themselves.

Also factor in poverty and population figures into LA and DC and then you'll get to the root of crime rates.

Let me start with I love guns. I own guns and I love to shoot guns at the target and skeet range. I own several handguns that I bought because my business used to require me leaving at night with a large amount of cash in a deposit bag. In Ga., I bought a pistol at a gun show...took it with me that day, no waiting...oh and bought ammo with it(batteries were included). Then went that monday to the courthouse, was fingerprinted, paid $50 and was mailed a license to carry a concealed firearm. Naturally they did a background check and fingerprint check to make sure I wasn't a felon.
I believe everyone should carry a gun...and I guarantee you crime would be cut in half...although shootings over disputes at pool or fender benders would probably increase.
A criminal is not scared at the prospect of doing time, if he was he wouldn't be a criminal in the first place. They do respect a gun. Twice a gun has kept me from being robbed and if the people had not backed down i would have shot to kill them. There is nothing worse to me than someone that does not respect someone else's property. Screw a criminal, no respect for them...the more that get shot the better. Better them than me.
Liberals think putting up "gun free zone" or "drug free zones" signs will make the crooks go straight.....no, but Charles Bronson with a .44 mag Death Wish style will.

Originally posted by Lukefj
This new law or ammendment to the law now allows people to use force anywhere, not just in the home.This is a completely unnecessary law in my opinion. Why even bother with a police force anymore. Silly american politicians.

Luke, I'm starting to believe that we need to start loosening up some of the gun laws up here. Ever been to Toronto? in places like Scarberia (Scarborough), I wouldn't feel safe without a gun or six. because we're stuck next to teh states, we get a lot of illegal firearms making their way up here. A few weeks ago in fact, a man in Niagra Falls -or maybe it was brampton- was caught smuggling arms to gangs. Twenty three handguns were found in that shipment alone.

Fact of the matter is that Canada is getting more and more dangerous. I would encourage a concealed carry program up here, for that simple reason. In addition, there would be so few people willing to take the courses and the trouble to get a firearm that it would not be a Texas-style massacre every few hours in Jane and FInch (well, anymore than it already is). I mean, TPS is short 400 officers. There's not enough police to go around.

DE

Well, it's easy to say something like, "I've had a handgun for awhile now and I've never shot it outside of a firing range and I'm perfectly safe with it," but that means basically nothing. The fact is, I've got several friends who conceal carry and I know of a few incidents arising from their handgun carriage. For example, 2 weeks ago, my best friend's unstable little (21yo) brother made his way into his big brother's (24yo) unlocked truck, where he proceeded to take his big brother's gun and shoot himself in the head, killing himself. This wouldn't have happened if he didn't have access to that gun for those few short minutes.

Without a doubt, there will always be tragedies in human history, with or without guns, drugs, religion, money, cars, atom bombs, etc.

I was never a gun nut and I'm still not (I bought my first handgun less than a year ago). That being said, however, I am unwilling to hand my gun over to anyone at any time, ever, as long as I prove that I am responsible with it, and there are others like me. We consider gun ownership a RIGHT in general (for the people), but when it comes down to individual and personal ownership, then it is a PRIVILEGE, if that makes sense.

Originally posted by shots


Oh My Marg has now moved the Minuteman from AZ to Texas

The minuteman headquarters are in Tombstone AZ and the co founder is from CA and they are not I repeat are not vigilantes.

Thanks, I am very aware of the roots of the founders of minuteman, I reserved my opinion of the leader he seems to have some mental problems when he was a teacher in California, no wonder he doesn't teach any more.

By the way the president himself called them vigilantes.

I mean to said Arizona.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by marg6043]

Like a year ago a guy was arrested here in new york for shooting a intruder in his daughters room with an unregistered handgun, He didn't kill the man and due to some public outcry he wasn't sent to prison. The laws here make it too difficult for honest people to get themself some decent protection, a lot of small business run the risk of having to keep unregister handguns in high crimes area through out the city because of these laws, they make criminals out of otherwise complete lawabitting(not sure about this word, lol) people. A few people have been charge with defending themselves with unregister guns and some have had to do some time. After a few store owners were killed here a new move was made to make business owners (bodegas and such specifically or something) have easier access to get gun permits.

You know this is a good thing. Here in Tampa in the last year alone there have been numerous deaths and injuries at fast food joints from criminicals armed robbers shooting their victimes even after they have done everything demanded. Fact of the matter is if these subways, mcdonalds, and burker kings had a manager with access to a gun it would be a dead or injured scumbag instead of innocent low wage worker. Lets be serious what happens if you happened to be at a wal-mart and some scumbags just decided to come in and start shooting, either because they are terrorists or because they are trying fast as hell to gather some cash. Thanks to this law I can haul ass to the shotgun case and ask my fellow associate to open it up so I can defend the store from unhampered attack. This is probably the first time I support Jeb on any decision hes made.

I was wrong about what I posted on how the law was before, 1. because I was ignorant on the law before now and 2. hearsay is never reliable and should not have used that example.


I do think this law is good and was needed. Responsible people should be allowed to carry guns because lord knows too many criminals already have their hands on one.

Originally posted by subz
The point of my example is that the only thing the guy could be charged and prosecuted for is his mental incapacity. As the law enshrines some ones "perception" of a situation as to whether they can use deadly force.

Some people cross the road to avoid walking past a group of black kids. Some people percieve it differently.

Is it so hard to assume that some people might percieve a threat to their life where there really isnt any?

Thats where this law is faulty.

Subz, you should actually first read the law, and then make a comment about it. I don't think that you have read it or understand that this law applies only if it can be proven that it was in self defense....

This law does not state that if you notice someone is looking at you the wrong way you have a green light to kill them..... You are really taking this out of context, and exagerating what this law is all about. Frankly i don't even think you took the time to read the bill.

Look, we have had the concealed weapon law since 1987.... you don't see people killing others left and right because of this do you?....

Once more liberals and Democrats are trying to use this as a political tool, that's all this is.....

[edit on 6-4-2005 by Muaddib]

I live in Pennsylvania and I used to work part-time as an armed security guard. Every year company policy required us to attand a class on the laws pertaining to use of our weapons. First thing that you should know is that the written law does not mean anything. Everything is decided by precedent. For those of you unfamiliar with the term, it means what ever a judge has interpreted the law to mean. The restrictions on when we could and could not fire were so absurd that I quit the job over them. You had better have a bullet hole in you before you fire at anyone. The insurence company that provided out medical coverage made bulletproof vests mandatory. When were done several of us went out for beers with the instructor and we ended up having a discussion on home defense. What I found out really shook me up. Under the current interpretation of the laws in Pennsylvania you have no right to defend your home.
Let me put what was said into perspective. I live in a two story house with my mother. Both of our bedrooms are upstairs. If someone breaks into my house I have to give them the downstairs. I am to call the police from upstairs and wait for them to take care of it. If I grab my pistol or shotgun and go downstairs and shoot the intruder I am going to jail. It doesn't matter if the intruder is armed and shoots me first, I am still going to jail. The act of my going down the stairs and not waiting for the police means that I provoked the confrontation and the intruder can shoot me in self-defense. I might get lucky and get a conservative judge and get off, but I shouldn't have to take that chance. This was in 1993 and I hope that things have changed, but I doubt it.

Originally posted by Lukefj
The laws in Florida already allow for use of force in situations where someone has broken into your car or home. This new law or ammendment to the law now allows people to use force anywhere, not just in the home.

This is a completely unnecessary law in my opinion. Why even bother with a police force anymore. Silly american politicians.

Lukefj

Because the police cannot be everywhere all the time. A woman can save herself from being raped, or killed, instead of having to look for a police officer after she has been raped and stabbed....

This bill is not giving a green light for people to go on a killing spree....

Out of all the places i would have thought that most members in ATS and ATSNN would agree with this law....

This law is giving people the right to defend themselves when their lives or the lives of loved ones are in danger. Without having to try to escape first and possibly be killed in the process....

And BTW, the law in Florida was that you could defend yourself after all options were closed to you...after you tried to escape from the situation and if you were lucky enough to survive the bullet or knife embeded in your back...


[edit on 6-4-2005 by Muaddib]

I keep telling ya put some prozac and lithium licks about the damned state so the excitable and reality challenged can go up, take a couple licks and medicate themselves saving the rest of us a world of trouble.

The Nature Of The Discussion

What I still find incredible is the idea that self-defense could even be considered "controversial".

Though I have been following this issue for about three decades now, the fact that it exists at all still amazes me.