Gateway Pundit Russian Propaganda

a reply to: Zanti Misfit


I think Putins supporters would probably continue blame West even if Putin would use nuke.

So Putin , if he nuked UK ,the Putin cheerleaders would start blaming West caused this, not nut Vlad .

That`s the mindset of Putin cheerleaders , Putins own 5th column.


Sounds like you are allready blaming me , when you write i want nukes to fly. That`s delusional thinking from you .

a reply to: andy06shake

Yep , they dont seem to stay enough with truth side

a reply to: interupt42


It`s sad news/ journalism has become such a political theater .

a reply to: Boadicea

However, we have the congressional statement/testimony of a Biden administration official who confirmed the existence of biolabs only to express concern about what Russia might do with the labs and their contents. If Nuland considered the biolabs dangerous, then we cannot rule out your "supermalicious" qualification either.

I don't doubt US (albeit not necessarily all state) partnered labs across the globe. School partnerships, virus tracking, probably cheap pharmaceutical alliances... But if it was malicious, why would we do if right on the boarder of someone? Couldn't we just make it here and sneak if there? Why make ourselves so vulnerable. And if it was there and so blatant, why has Russia completely abandoned that justification?

And OF COURSE Ukraine is going to deny they terrorized that region! (And, of course, since Zelensky has banned all "unfriendly" news sources and reporting, all we're going to here is what Zelensky allows us to hear...)

Yea, that's lame. Again, I won't try and deny Ukraine is at fault on some things. As for zelensky, I've never fawned over him. Honestly I find a vast majority of mass idoliziation cringe, him being no exception.

So first, let's be clear that this is a feud that goes back decades at least. But in recent memory, we have Ukraine and Russia both "claiming" those areas, Ukraine took them with the help of Obama and McCain and their Nazis, continued/proceeded to terrorize and wage war on those people in those areas, until Russia just took them back.

Does it go back decades? I'm pretty sure the independence of Ukraine was pretty clean cut when the USSR fell, so much so Russia was a cosigner in the Budapest Memorandum. Acknowledging their sovereignty so much so they did so with former enemies the US and UK. Ukraine gives up their nukes, and the US, UK, and Russia guarantee protection should their sovereignty come under threat.

As for Obama/Biden/McCain and their crucades post Crimea invasion by Russia. I find it odd you left out Trump being the first admin to provide lethal aid. But I don't argue with your assertions they were also hawkish.

There were plenty of compromises offered, such as letting the people of those areas decide for themselves, or using those areas to create a so-called neutral zone. Seems to me that instead of championing either Ukraine or Russia, we should be championing the people and what will bring peace.

Was the Crimea referendum held before the invasion? Did they initiate it? No, the writing was on the wall for Russia that Ukraine was leaning into the west too much. Sevastopol housed the black sea fleet, and was leased by Ukraine. If they joined the EU the lease would likely not be renewed. So Russia protected their interests. One could argue most of Ukraine sought EU membership, and that's what started the conflict with Russia. I'm not from the region and can't say for certain that's the case or where most lean. But if we're saying peace would be letting regions succeed during the conflict, we should examine if the nation voting to exit Russia's sphere of influence is/was equally important.

No need for Godwin's Law. No need to whitewash. Ukraine is very very proud of their Nazis and their Nazi army. We're not talking your average nationalist "rah! rah! our country right or wrong!!!" crap. Nope. We're talking self proclaimed honest-to-God official Nazis.

With all due respect, the Nazi stuff doesn't work on me. It doesn't work with domestic comparisons any more than foreign. Are they hyper nationalists? Sure. Are they an incredible antithesis to my world view as someone who leans right on the political compass? Yup. Do they have concentration camps, assembly line death chambers, and multi front offenses on their neibors much less the appearance of ambitions of that? Not to my knowledge.

Do you associate most forms of nationalism across the globe with nazism, or is this the first time you've taken a such strong position of such? Are the Ukrainians seriously the closest thing to the German Nazis since WWII? Because ironically, China and the former USSR (current Russia) has his numbers seriously beat. And should Ukraine fall, whose sphere of influence are they left to? But again, I won't say they're Nazis, because that's an unfair comparison. They're different. Vastly different ideologies can be subject to the folly of man, and the most disgusting capacity of them.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I don't doubt US (albeit not necessarily all state) partnered labs across the globe. School partnerships, virus tracking, probably cheap pharmaceutical alliances... But if it was malicious, why would we do if right on the boarder of someone? Couldn't we just make it here and sneak if there? Why make ourselves so vulnerable. And if it was there and so blatant, why has Russia completely abandoned that justification?

Good questions. I don't have the answers as to why the critters do what they do. I just know that Team Biden stated we did have biolabs there, and that they were dangerous, and they were concerned about Russia could/would do.

Again, I won't try and deny Ukraine is at fault on some things. As for zelensky, I've never fawned over him. Honestly I find a vast majority of mass idoliziation cringe, him being no exception.

Fair enough. The vast majority of mass idolization is cringe!

Does it go back decades? I'm pretty sure the independence of Ukraine was pretty clean cut when the USSR fell, so much so Russia was a cosigner in the Budapest Memorandum. Acknowledging their sovereignty so much so they did so with former enemies the US and UK. Ukraine gives up their nukes, and the US, UK, and Russia guarantee protection should their sovereignty come under threat.

That's not my understanding. As I understood it, Russia was never really okay with it, but accepted it on the conditions you stated, as well as the condition Ukraine did not join NATO.

As for Obama/Biden/McCain and their crucades post Crimea invasion by Russia. I find it odd you left out Trump being the first admin to provide lethal aid. But I don't argue with your assertions they were also hawkish.

I wasn't aware Trump was the first, and I'm not sure I believe that anyway. (Not that I doubt you, but I don't necessarily believe the government) But it wasn't important to the timeline I was referencing.

Was the Crimea referendum held before the invasion? Did they initiate it? No, the writing was on the wall for Russia that Ukraine was leaning into the west too much. Sevastopol housed the black sea fleet, and was leased by Ukraine. If they joined the EU the lease would likely not be renewed. So Russia protected their interests. One could argue most of Ukraine sought EU membership, and that's what started the conflict with Russia. I'm not from the region and can't say for certain that's the case or where most lean. But if we're saying peace would be letting regions succeed during the conflict, we should examine if the nation voting to exit Russia's sphere of influence is/was equally important.

Again, that's not exactly how I understand it... perhaps in terms of political power only, but not in terms of the people and their sentiments and loyalties. The Ukrainians of the east are very much Russian friends, allies and sympathizers, and are very different than the Ukrainians in the west of Ukraine. Many/most eastern Ukrainians do not want to be Ukrainians and never really did. Regardless, it's not our fight, except that we (the USA) started sticking our grubby fingers in and stirring the pot.

With all due respect, the Nazi stuff doesn't work on me.

With all due respect, do your homework. I'm not speaking figuratively or metaphorically. Check out the Azov Battalion for a start. These are self-proclaimed full-fledged official Nazis who are quite proud of themselves and their achievements.

a reply to: Boadicea

That's not my understanding. As I understood it, Russia was never really okay with it, but accepted it on the conditions you stated, as well as the condition Ukraine did not join NATO.

I don't think many Russians were thrilled the USSR fell, but the satellite countries sure were. Look at which parts of the world most of them lean now and I think it's pretty evident. That shouldn't come as a surprise either given the conditions they lived under during that time. Ukrainians have their own language, and Russia has the most land in the world while being quite far from the most populace. They have a history of imperialism as well, so I'd question the legitimacy of their grievances to "lost land".

I wasn't aware Trump was the first, and I'm not sure I believe that anyway. (Not that I doubt you, but I don't necessarily believe the government) But it wasn't important to the timeline I was referencing.

From 12/22/2017—

The Trump administration has approved a plan to provide lethal weapons to Ukraine, U.S. officials said Friday, in a long-awaited move that deepens America’s involvement in the military conflict and may further strain relations with Russia.

The new arms include American-made Javelin anti-tank missiles that Ukraine has long sought to boost its defenses against Russian-backed separatists armed with tanks that have rolled through eastern Ukraine during violence that has killed more than 10,000 since 2014. Previously, the U.S. has provided Ukraine with support equipment and training, and has let private companies sell some small arms like rifles.

Trump had been considering the plan for some time after the State Department and the Pentagon signed off earlier this year. President Barack Obama also considered sending lethal weapons to Ukraine, but left office without doing so.

AP News

I remember that time period, because lethal aid was a big deal to me as if stepped up our involvement. It's no surprise to me it got memory holed because the broader media was busy droning on about Trump being some Russian ally.

I even made a thread pointing out why the Russian narrative was laughable, and one of the points in that thread was Trump approving lethal aid when Obama didn't.

But back to your time line of the importance of US meddling in Ukraine, Crimea only happened in 2014. Their internal unrest only shortly (year or two) before that. I think the first US shipment of lethal aid is very much a significant crossroads in that time line. Trump also said a few months after the full invasion that Biden wasn't doing enough, and implied we should send drones, almost sounding like the drones should be flown by America in the war.

Again, that's not exactly how I understand it... perhaps in terms of political power only, but not in terms of the people and their sentiments and loyalties. The Ukrainians of the east are very much Russian friends, allies and sympathizers, and are very different than the Ukrainians in the west of Ukraine.

I certainly agree the eastern part of Ukraine has a different makeup, closer to that of Crimea, which was and is mostly ethnic Russians. But I have little question Ukraine as a whole wants to exit the Russian sphere of influence. If they didn't, they wouldn't have out up as impressive of a fight as they have. You can't wage war on a stronger opponent if your people aren't behind you.

Regardless, it's not our fight, except that we (the USA) started sticking our grubby fingers in and stirring the pot.

Personally I agree. We have enough at home to worry about. Our people need our governments attention. More than that, I question our governments agenda. I highly doubt it has altruistic intent, and imagine it's moreso exploiting the Ukrainians for proxy to weaken Russia. That doesn't benefit the American people or the Ukrainian people. It just causes destruction. But I wouldn't say it's illegitimate, because of the budapest memorandum. We promised to protect their sovereignty should their sovereignty be threatened. I wouldn't mind reneging on that though.

With all due respect, do your homework. I'm not speaking figuratively or metaphorically. Check out the Azov Battalion for a start. These are self-proclaimed full-fledged official Nazis who are quite proud of themselves and their achievements.

I have, but it's important to note contextually I was debating your (my perceived) implication that the broader Ukraine was a comparable country to Nazi Germany. I've said many times I don't doubt they have hyper nationalist minorities that even have comparable insignia to WWII Germany. But I still find calling the nation's fight for sovereignty a Nazi manifestation. Most Ukrainians have family members who fought the Nazis in WWII. I doubt their ideology aligns with that genocidal country, especially since eastern Europe had a lot of jews and still do.

I personally have never liked the willingness of people to declare entities Nazis. It lessens the word and also how disgusting actual Nazis were.

originally posted by: Kenzo
a reply to: interupt42


It`s sad news/ journalism has become such a political theater .

'
Are you just figuring that out? 🤣

originally posted by: Boadicea
Again, that's not exactly how I understand it... perhaps in terms of political power only, but not in terms of the people and their sentiments and loyalties. The Ukrainians of the east are very much Russian friends, allies and sympathizers, and are very different than the Ukrainians in the west of Ukraine. Many/most eastern Ukrainians do not want to be Ukrainians and never really did. Regardless, it's not our fight, except that we (the USA) started sticking our grubby fingers in and stirring the pot.

This response gets used so much and at best it's a half truth.

www.kiis.com.ua...

I'll give just a few points from the polling done as I posted this to the update thread a while back...

Do you support actions of those, who with arms capture administrative buildings in your region?
Donetsk Oblast Certainly yes: 9.4 Rather yes 8.7 Certainly no: 53,2

Luhansk Oblast Certainly yes: 12.2 Rather yes: 12.2 Certainly no: 39.2

So in both Oblasts, far more people did not support the actions of Girkin and his ilk.

Remember that meme of the Ukrainian peoples of the Donbas wanted to secede from their own country?

Do you support the idea, that your region should secede from Ukraine and join Russia?

Donbas Oblast Certainly yes : 11.9 Rather yes: 15.6
Luhansk Oblast Certainly yes: 13.2 Rather yes 17.1

Make of that what you will but it paints a pretty clear picture of residents of SE Ukraine prior to the Russians going on a walk about around the Donbas in 2014. And please note the date, it's important for context.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Regarding Trump and sending weapons, I'm not questioning if Trump was the first reported to have sent lethal weapons. I'm just not sure that lethal weapons were sent that were not reported being sent (tho I've seen reports that our weapons have been found). We know what we're told.

Regarding the land disputes, the fall of the USSR, etc., again, as I understand it, there were issues at the time the USSR fell and when Ukraine became independent. Not every "Ukrainian" was happy about it then, not every "Ukrainian" is happy about it now, and haven't been happy about it in the meantime. And most of those "Ukranians" are in the eastern regions, consider themselves more Russian than Ukrainian, and have been terrorized and brutalized by their Ukrainian government/army in the process. We can make whatever judgments we like about whether it's right or wrong or good or bad or whatever. But it is what it is.

I personally have never liked the willingness of people to declare entities Nazis. It lessens the word and also how disgusting actual Nazis were.

Then have a good talk with the self-proclaimed Nazis in Ukraine -- not me! And consider whether this is about lessening the word... or lessening the true nature of these Nazis and the horrors in Ukraine.

a reply to: GAOTU789

Thank you for the link, and I will keep it in mind.

Interesting that the only issue which rated higher as a whole with the people than the economy was a potential Civil War. I'm not sure why so many would be concerned about civil war unless they had reason to believe that large segments of population were seriously not happy. But it tells me they were concerned about keeping the peace, and may very well have preferred the present situation to the horrors and hardships of war.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: CriticalStinker


Then have a good talk with the self-proclaimed Nazis in Ukraine -- not me! And consider whether this is about lessening the word... or lessening the true nature of these Nazis and the horrors in Ukraine.

I'm seeing a lot of excuses being made and apologists for actual NAZIS...WITH TANKS!

Are people's memories that short?

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: CriticalStinker


Then have a good talk with the self-proclaimed Nazis in Ukraine -- not me! And consider whether this is about lessening the word... or lessening the true nature of these Nazis and the horrors in Ukraine.

I'm seeing a lot of excuses being made and apologists for actual NAZIS...WITH TANKS!

Are people's memories that short?

Did those supposed 'nazis' use their tanks to invade anyone?

originally posted by: MidnightWatcher

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: CriticalStinker


Then have a good talk with the self-proclaimed Nazis in Ukraine -- not me! And consider whether this is about lessening the word... or lessening the true nature of these Nazis and the horrors in Ukraine.

I'm seeing a lot of excuses being made and apologists for actual NAZIS...WITH TANKS!

Are people's memories that short?

Did those supposed 'nazis' use their tanks to invade anyone?

Wait...are you talking about the NICE NAZIS?

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: CriticalStinker


Then have a good talk with the self-proclaimed Nazis in Ukraine -- not me! And consider whether this is about lessening the word... or lessening the true nature of these Nazis and the horrors in Ukraine.

I'm seeing a lot of excuses being made and apologists for actual NAZIS...WITH TANKS!

Are people's memories that short?

I think you're confusing a debate whether all of Ukraine being Nazi, or them having a LARP minority who certainly are hyper nationalist lunatics.

And in this context, they're fighting the Russians who were more recently imperialists on a large conquest than the Nazis. They also killed more people too. But that doesn't mean all of Russian history or all their people have to carry that brand.

This is why I dislike the overuse of the term Nazi, because once Goodwins law comes into play, it's not a debate over substance, but who is Nazi apologists and what have you.

And if we're to use the logic that anyone who merely talks on the topic of Ukrainian sovereignty are nazi apologists, are you saying Trump is one? He armed them after all. And if the concept of tanks is frightening, can I get you to comment on just statement Biden wasn't doing enough and America should be sending drones to directly hit Russia?

a reply to: IAMTAT

I'm seeing a lot of excuses being made and apologists for actual NAZIS...WITH TANKS! Are people's memories that short?

Right? I'm beginning to feel bad for these poor Nazis... no one wants to respect or validate their self-identified Nazi identity.

Maybe they can form a support group with all the trans people and they can all validate each other!

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: MidnightWatcher

originally posted by: IAMTAT

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: CriticalStinker


Then have a good talk with the self-proclaimed Nazis in Ukraine -- not me! And consider whether this is about lessening the word... or lessening the true nature of these Nazis and the horrors in Ukraine.

I'm seeing a lot of excuses being made and apologists for actual NAZIS...WITH TANKS!

Are people's memories that short?

Did those supposed 'nazis' use their tanks to invade anyone?

Wait...are you talking about the NICE NAZIS?

Who said anything about 'nice'?

Did they invade anyone?

Or even threaten to do so?

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: IAMTAT

I'm seeing a lot of excuses being made and apologists for actual NAZIS...WITH TANKS! Are people's memories that short?

Right? I'm beginning to feel bad for these poor Nazis... no one wants to respect or validate their self-identified Nazi identity.

Hopefully, giving them billions of dollars of advanced weaponry to go along with their swastika-emblazoned tanks...will help ease their low self-esteem.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

And in this context, they're fighting the Russians who were more recently imperialists on a large conquest than the Nazis. They also killed more people too. But that doesn't mean all of Russian history or all their people have to carry that brand.

I just want to note here -- and I should have noted before, so my apologies -- that there have been reports of self-proclaimed Nazis fighting with and for Russia as well. So Russia ain't so innocent here either. I'm not aware that Putin has embraced his Nazis like Zelensky has embraced his Nazis though. But Putin hasn't kicked his to the curb either.

a reply to: IAMTAT

Hopefully, giving them billion s of dollars of advanced weaponry to go along with their swastika-emblazoned tanks...will help ease their low self-esteem.

Ahhhh... I get it now. ^^That's why Biden is so keen on helping with big bucks and weapons. And here I thought Biden was just a doddering old warmonger. Silly me.

a reply to: Boadicea

Russia ain't innocent at all.

So let's pick sides as we watch Russians and Nazis slug it out.

Worked out well for the world the last time.