Why are people mourning the Pope?

Originally posted by Jakko

Just say what you really think, instead of trying to come up with the worst, just in case someone may not understand how much you despise this man.

Fair enough......as I do NOT believe in hell. But are you to suggest that I should have respect for others feelings even if they are based on a false image? If Karol was a cool guy then I would agree and say I was out of line, but just because people THINK he was a good man does not mean ANYTHING.

That was the closest way I was able to express my feelings for the man, and keep it within an understandable context to those who do admire, and worhip the man.

As for relativism I still think my comment was on the mark, especially when concerning a man who has damned millions himself, if he can do it why can't I ? (oh yeah that whole pesky infallibility issue) Besides it sure did get alot of people to actually look up who the man truly is......So in that sense for all intents and purposes....Mission accomplished.

Now there are those who are that much more aware of who John Paul II really was, and how he became pope. I have done a miniscule part to help educate people, and for that I will NEVER apologize.

Well winter, the most important goal here is to make people aware you are right, right?
If you want to do that, if you really want to make popefans aware of the horrible things you know about the pope, you are best of NOT using such extreme comments in your post, as popefans will simply ignore you from that point on.

Originally posted by Jakko
Well winter, the most important goal here is to make people aware you are right, right?
If you want to do that, if you really want to make popefans aware of the horrible things you know about the pope, you are best of NOT using such extreme comments in your post, as popefans will simply ignore you from that point on.

So you are to tell me that peoples feelings should be considered when discussing the truth. (mind you I already admitted I knew my original comment was extreme)

Do you honestly think anyone would of listened no matter HOW I phrased it? I think you all would of been up in arms even if I would of seriously questioned why you all admire him soo much.

I realized I was treading on touchy ground, which is why I decided to plant my feet firmly, and stomp Terra as the late great Dr. Thompson. The mods didn't have a prob, so there must be some validity to my point no?

Once again I acknowledge that some people will be turned off by the severity of my comments, and truthfully they were partially intended for those who can look outside their narrow world view.....am I to concern myself with those people that can not though?

If every activist throughout time had concerned themselves with the prevailing notions of their time then nothing would ever get accomplished. Did MLK Jr concern himself with the feelings of the racist? NO! Did la resistance concern themselves with the feelings of the French populace? No! Did Malcom X concern himself with the racist ideologies that dominated the nation of islam at the time ? No!

Not trying to put myself in the same light as any of these great individuals, but it IS their behaviour that I do model my own after. The fearlessness to bring truth no matter how ugly it might be, despite all risks to character and person.

Originally posted by 1wintermute1
If every activist throughout time had concerned themselves with the prevailing notions of their time then nothing would ever get accomplished. .

That is so true.

Damn, your "warns" just keep piling up lol -- but it's a damn shame that others don't understand where your coming from. Especially the one that I read about the gruesome reality of war and death. I don't know, this all sounds like major censorship. Not good.

By the way, what's the rules on warns? Once you reach the max, are you banned? I've got one so far

Originally posted by eudaimonia
By the way, what's the rules on warns? Once you reach the max, are you banned? I've got one so far

I do believe 5 kicks in the auto posting ban.

But really this thread should serve as an example. Look at all the warns on "both sides?"

When you fight with a troll, you become a troll. That should be obvious.

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by eudaimonia
By the way, what's the rules on warns? Once you reach the max, are you banned? I've got one so far

I do believe 5 kicks in the auto posting ban.

But really this thread should serve as an example. Look at all the warns on "both sides?"

When you fight with a troll, you become a troll. That should be obvious.

I'm sorry, maybe I missed something here, but who's this troll you're referring to?

Originally posted by eudaimonia
I'm sorry, maybe I missed something here, but who's this troll you're referring to?

You didn't miss a thing. But should you need specific examples of troll behavior it's starting a thread for prurient reasons, as in just to incite infammatory responses.

Often a "hook" is used as a form of bait. For example:

Originally posted by eudaimonia
I find the pope laughable and pathetic.

Then sitting back to watch the fun of people getting into fights and warned while you play dumb. Or when the drama dies, bumping your own thread with multiple posts in a row (see page 4) is another good indication of trolling behavior.

And the final sure sign is off topic responses like yours about another member's warns and the "censorship" comments, or the kind of off topic questions I'm answering for you now about who the troll is exactly.

I hope I've clarified the situation.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by RANT]

Originally posted by RANT
You didn't miss a thing. But should you need specific examples of troll behavior it's starting a thread for prurient reasons, as in just to incite infammatory responses.

Often a "hook" is used as a form of bait. For example:

Originally posted by eudaimonia
I find the pope laughable and pathetic.

Then sitting back to watch the fun of people getting into fights and warned while you play dumb. Or when the drama dies, bumping your own thread with multiple posts in a row (see page 4) is another good indication of trolling behavior.

And the final sure sign is off topic responses like yours about another member's warns and the "censorship" comments, or the kind of off topic questions I'm answering for you now about who the troll is exactly.

I hope I've clarified the situation.

Well, "I find the pope laughable and pathetic" is an opinion. If opinions are indications of trolling, maybe the mods should reevaluate what a troll really is. Of course, when you have a strong opinion such as that, you will certainly find others who will disagree. Was my intention to solely for attention and to engage others in fights? Absolutely not. But I won't censor my right to speak my mind just because others may be "sensitive" to it. What's this about bumping your own thread? Is that now another rule I wasn't aware of? Am I not allowed to respond to others? In my own thread? Cmon. That's ridiculous. Are you implying that I'm out to write in ATS because I feel this is a competition? That others will "lose out" or "be jealous" because I've "bumped" my own thread? Cmon.

"off topic responses" -- Well, sorry. I didn't know I was confined to specific guidelines of free speech.

The Pope has done a lot to further peace between religions too, specialy during Balkan conflict. Croat56 mentioned it already in this thread.
I think that Pope saw the danger of conflicts involving religions, he tried to make peace between them, so when the inevitable time of conflict comes (like right now) people won't give in to hate that easily.
Muslims respect him a lot..

Actually religion really had nothing to do with it. Serbs wanted a greater Serbia, and tried to kill every1 on the land they wanted.
I am eternally greatful to Karol Wojtiya for helping to stop it.

He has done alot of great things. He stopped a war between Chile and (i forget the other country) befor it evan started! He also brought down communism. I can only hope the next pope is half as good as he was.

Not everyone who expresses his opinion in a provoking way is a troll, but such behavior is still called "trolling", as it usually has no good effects on a thread.
In the end I regret calling winter names, as I really do not think he was such a bad guy. He just didn't understand why his extreme comments worked against him in his attempt to share his view on the pope.

I sure think his links would have been great material to have a good debate about, but because of the "form" he put it in the topic got lost and I realize I am partly to blame for that.

I hope the dicussion about the pope can be continued, as I would love to find out just how good or bad this man was, but maybe this is not yet the right time or the right topic for that.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by Jakko]

If you really beleive in the Faith you have chosen then you shouldn't not be offended by any comment or information that comes your way.

I, and anyone else has a right to say what they have to say and if other people don't like or appreciate what has been said then I think they need to question their maturity and intelligence....this a forum for adults and adults should be able to express their opinion without fear of tears or reprisals from his fellow posters.

Alas their seems to be Moderator who practices just the opposite so I guess the crying will continue.

Originally posted by BobDylan
If you really beleive in the Faith you have chosen then you shouldn't not be offended by any comment or information that comes your way.
I, and anyone else has a right to say what they have to say and if other people don't like or appreciate what has been said then I think they need to question their maturity and intelligence....this a forum for adults and adults should be able to express their opinion without fear of tears or reprisals from his fellow posters.

Have you ever heard of the word politeness?
Or maybe respect for fellow ATSers?

You are talking about a forum for adults, yet you seem to defend a pretty childish way of having a discussion.
You have the right to express your opinion, but you do not have the right to be rude and offensive.

Do you understand what this is about?
It is not about the actual opinion, it is about the way you choose to put your opinion to words. The exact same opinion can be put to words in so many different ways, and if you choose the rude way you're choosing thr wrong way, simple as that.