Biblical cruelty

There was an episode of the simpsons that illustrated the merciful/vengeful god thing.

The one where homer prays and god helps him out, he gets selfish then god turns on him and punishes him (floods the town) and the heathen.
At the end they pray for forgiveness and they are forgiven.

But concentrating on only the good things is terrible. It's like telling your friend "Well, your husband is a good provider and father and he only beats you once a week."

I don't want to offend. I just want to have a debate.

Originally posted by maynardsthirdeye

Originally posted by Seekerof
Personally, I think maynard, you may be looking and reading too much into the so called "bad things" of God verses looking at God as a whole.

God expresses Himself to people (individuals....you and I) differently as compared to people's (Israelites, Muslims, Christians, etc.). You are seeing God as applied to a group of people verses looking at God on a personal basis.

I guess what I am trying to say, is if you are truly trying to know God and his character it may help to keep your mind open more so than looking for faults or pointing out the "bad things", per se.' I can under stand why people become skeptic or such but I also think that if people stopped applying God to a book, per se', then the real revelation of God is brought into scope. We are, as I have mentioned before, because I truly feel this way, applying, defining, and in doing so, confining God to set parameters, guidelines and books, when or if the truth was really known, God is beyond all this.
I hope this was understandable and if it was, please remember, it is only an opinion.

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 18-7-2003 by Seekerof]

I think understand what you're saying. But do you think I should concentrate more on Jesus' message of love rather than an angry God? Is that what you're saying?

Maynard, I think Jesus reveals a great understanding of God and how God is applied to Man (ie: you and I, etc.) But to be perfectly honest Love and understanding of God can come from a variety of places. Koran has some great understandings in it. The Torah has some further understandings of God, etc.

I would suggest starting where you feel most comfortable. I would avoid trying to 'grasp' more than one could understand though. Take it in small doses, so to speak. Pray, etc. Again, understanding God is rememebering that He deals with each of us differently....since we are all different individuals. The same goes for knowledge and understanding of God. There are many things in the Bible that can cause one to doubt, question, etc., but if one keeps things in perspective as applied to the "big picture" instead of a single "frame of that picture," one will come to a new and different look at God and of God.
I hope this helps....again, its just my opinion and my way may not necessarily be your way....understand?

regards
seekerof

So the Bible doesn't play a role in your worship of God?

Maynard.......
Yes.......
But....
God is more than the Bible........
thats the message I am relating here........
You are choosing one holy text out of many to deem suitable for 'defining' God.......
God is more that a 'book'.........
God is actually in truth, beyond defining, beyond our understanding.....
To me.....
God is All; Everything........
I don't concentrate on the negatives........
but the positives.......
God reveals Himself differently to each of us on a personal basis........
Seeking God is not seeking the unattainable but the unavoidable........
I tell you a book I would recommend that explains God from a perspective I think you would find appealing is....
Converstaions with God, by Neale Donald Walsch.

If you ask anyone about God and how they see and understand God.........
Each of us will give you a different answer........
Try it........
I'm telling ya that understanding God is a personal experience...........
not limited by a book, or books...etc......
God was around Long before books were Maynard........
Think about it.........


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 18-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Maynard.......
Yes.......
But....
God is more than the Bible........
thats the message I am relating here........
You are choosing one holy text out of many to deem suitable for 'defining' God.......
God is more that a 'book'.........
God is actually in truth, beyond defining, beyond our understanding.....
To me.....
God is All; Everything........
I don't concentrate on the negatives........
but the positives.......
God reveals Himself differently to each of us on a personal basis........
Seeking God is not seeking the unattainable but the unavoidable........
I tell you a book I would recommend that explains God from a perspective I think you would find appealing is....
Converstaions with God, by Neale Donald Walsch.

If you ask anyone about God and how they see and understand God.........
Each of us will give you a different answer........
Try it........
I'm telling ya that understanding God is a personal experience...........
not limited by a book, or books...etc......
God was around Long before books were Maynard........
Think about it.........


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 18-7-2003 by Seekerof]

Very interesting. I understand that your trying to reach God throught more than a book and that's fine. In fact, if you want to follow a religion, I think that is the way it should be done. But lines 13 and 14 seem to talked about in a previous post of mine.

I looked at that book on Amazon and the reviews weren't all that convincing.

Now, I would like to see more views from different Christian sects.

Here's some of my favorites.

"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."
-Hosea 13:16

"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks!"
-Psalms 137:9

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
-Musa -Numbers 31:17


ONE

Maynard,

Can I just interject something else here. I won't be really saying anything new from what has been very well put by both Fury and Seeker, but maybe just in a different way, that might help you.

First look at the record of the original sin and tell me exactly what the "benefit" was to taking the risk of eating the fruit the Creator had already warned Adam not to eat? What was Adam hoping to get that was of such great potential benefit, that he was willing to say "maybe God WON'T bust a move on me"?

(hint..."you shall be as gods, knowing good from evil")

The Old Testament is a recording of God's interaction with His control group (the Jewish peoples). In the Old Testament we see God give these people, through His laws, commandments and commands, the "knowledge of good and evil". He lays it out for them. It is clear to them what is good and what is evil. And they can't handle it. They cannot avoid disappointing God even when He lays out exactly how to avoid disappointing God. A lesson, that we WILL all fall short of the glory of God (or gods) for that matter.

The record of God spoon-feeding, spanking and giving hints to the Jewish people is there for a very good reason. So that the self-sacrifice of the Christ could be seen as the wonderful act of mercy it is...and the liberating act that it is. Because it freed us from the condemnation that is inherent to the laws of the old testament. The laws God laid down are not dead, but they are disempowered over our souls. How many people in history have been able to follow the laws of the old testament to the letter? Because that is the requirement if your base your salvation on the law...every i, every t.

Concerning the commanded genocide of enemies: just as many portions of the the old testament law were for the sole purpose of protecting the Jewish people in daily life (i.e. laws of cleanliness, laws of food, etc. - by the way, the example you give of quoting "if you don't follow My word you're going to get the itch, male-pattern baldness, and rickets" is a good example maybe of God warning them...if you don't follow these daily life laws no telling what you're going to catch) the commands given by God on destroying certain enemies was done to protect the Jewish people.

And I might point out, that if you think that's just as opinion, track just one of the instances in the Old Testament where God tells the Israelites to completely wipe out this particular group of people, and then they didn't do what he said. Track that enemy and see what ends up happening to the Jewish people because they did not follow God's commandment. The Israelites were God's control group, and, yes, He gave special attention so that the lessons that needed to be learned by this chosen group would be learned.

I think He did a really good job. And I do not view Him as immoral or any of the other adverse adjectives you applied.

Originally posted by maynardsthirdeye
Some parts of the Bible show God as being an immoral, unfair, and sadistic monster. I thought God was supposed to be loving

They show Him condoning vengeance and genocide.

P.S. I'm not anti-Christian. I'm just confused about how people could worship that kind of God.

[Edited on 18-7-2003 by maynardsthirdeye]

Naw, you're just confused as to what was going on.

Without going into a long explanation (Don't have that kind of time this morning) let me just say that God is all-knowing, he knew the hearts of each and every person. He also knew what the future would hold if events went in other ways. He understands things about which we have no concept. Considering that, I'd say its impossible to judge the motives or methods of the omnipotent God and Creator. Trust Him, He has it all worked out!

That is the thing. If he is perfect, he should know those things are terrible and he should be ashamed.

But what Hell? What are the different views of Hell?

Originally posted by maynardsthirdeye
That is the thing. If he is perfect, he should know those things are terrible and he should be ashamed.

But what Hell? What are the different views of Hell?

Maynard........explain your reasoning for God not being perfect.....and how He should be "ashamed."
Your asking questions with no consequence to even bothering to understand God let alone believe in God.....that is the root of all your topics is it not.....your quest to deny God in reality and in or to yourself isn't it?

Just really wondering cause your pointing out "this and that", yet for some gut-wrenching feeling, I have the impression that there is a 'real' underline premise to your asking these questions.

regards
seekerof

Under one of my guises on another board, a question similar to this was posed and this is how I answered the poster.....maybe this can help you understand what I was eluding to in my last post to you asking your "reasons for":

"Ah, the ego! Everyone seems to have one and most people are in the peculiar habit of attaching it to the things they believe, in other words, identifying one's own beliefs.

When I was born..... I don't seriously remember what I believed, if anything. My first memories are from somewhere between the age of 1 and 2. I remember being cuddled by my mothers arms and thinking how wonderful those big breast were. I also remember an old rocking chair that ended in wooden lion's heads, their mouths wide open and I remember sticking my fingers in its mouth. I probably did that same thing whenever I sat in the chair all the way up through adolescence without ever thinking about it.

It's these life experience's that we use to create our own beliefs, but all too often, someone helps us along, parents, siblings, teachers, mentors, priests. It's called indoctrination, programming, brainwashing and it involves (whether the intentions are good or bad) not just giving you the ready made beleifs but applying every sort of psychological trick in the book. In this way, most people are deprived from using their own life experiences to create their own unique beliefs.

Some people never question their own beliefs or those "given" to them and procede through life in an almost robotic way indoctrinating, programming, brainwashing others, repeating the same old patterns that brought them to believe what they believe. But at some point, some people stop and question, perhaps not everything, but maybe one or two things. They search, they learn, they struggle to de-program those old beliefs and replace them with their own creations.

Then comes the ego, the trap that closes the mind.

Most people don't realize that they have very little choice in what they actually believe. I mean, how do you change your beliefs? You don't just wake up and say, "today, I'm going to believe in "X" the way you'd choose to put on a blue dress or have green eggs and ham for breakfast. Your beliefs are the result of your life's experiences, the things you've been "given," the things you've seen, heard and touched, and the things you have questioned, researched, and discovered for yourself. Your life experience, the beliefs you've been "given," the things you see, hear, and touch, these things are not entirely under your control, so how can you help but to believe in certain things the way you do?

Formulating your OWN beliefs requires tremendous effort. Not physical effort, of course, as it would require to break out of a cage, but mental effort to break free of the ego, that is, effort to stop identifying yourself with what you believe.

It's the old peculiar habit of identifying with one's beliefs that closes the mind to new information. You (we) grow up believing "X" having been "given" that belief or having experienced something that created it in your (our) own mind. Someone says, "there is no X." You (we) DON'T say (as you SHOULD,) "hmm, I wonder what makes him say that," but rather you (we) take it as a personal affront. "What do you mean, 'there is no X'? Are you calling me a liar? Whats wrong with you? Get away from me! I hate you!" And so on so forth.....

Most people take something like "there is no X" as a challenge or a personal affront, rather than an opportunity to question ones own beliefs, research the life experiences of the other person that has "given" him the belief that "there is no X" and progress.

It's not about being right and wrong, its about learning new things and progressing to a new level, evolving.

Meanwhile, if you aren't progressing, you're likely closing your mind to life experience of others, keeping your identity locked in that cage of ego. And if you're doing that, then you'll tend to react to the beliefs of others with "You're wrong!" "You're a liar!" "You're a fool!" "You're an idiot!".......etc, etc.

If you (we) have a tendency to insult or attack others because of your (our) beliefs, to hate others because of what they believe, etc., then you'd (we'd) better take a good look at the lock on your egotistic cage.

Accepting and trying to "really" understand the beliefs of others in relation to your unlocking your "cage", requires study how one arrived at his or her own beliefs. Accepting the beliefs of others as possibilities depending on new life experience that must be researched, questioning your OWN beliefs always ready to abandon them for new horizons......thats how one evolves, progress's. Thats the only way to truly "love thy neighbor." Thats truly the only way to "enlightenment."

As for my ego and beliefs, I'm not perfect, but I live in a constant state of total amazement....."

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 19-7-2003 by Seekerof]

"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."
-Hosea 13:16

"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks!"
-Psalms 137:9

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
-Musa -Numbers 31:17


C'mon. The Most High wouldn't command such things. 'Nuff said. I'm not saying that there's no creator but that the Bibles god isn't it. Bear in mind that the Bible DOES contain some truths about The All.

If Yahweh is "God" then "God" isn't perfect.

The All is perfect and just set laws into motion and it's up to us if we don't want to follow them. You reap what you sow and that's it.


ONE



[Edited on 18-7-2003 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Under one of my guises on another board, a question similar to this was posed and this is how I answered the poster.....maybe this can help you understand what I was eluding to in my last post to you asking your "reasons for":

"Ah, the ego! Everyone seems to have one and most people are in the peculiar habit of attaching it to the things they believe, in other words, identifying one's own beliefs.

When I was born..... I don't seriously remember what I believed, if anything. My first memories are from somewhere between the age of 1 and 2. I remember being cuddled by my mothers arms and thinking how wonderful those big breast were. I also remember an old rocking chair that ended in wooden lion's heads, their mouths wide open and I remember sticking my fingers in its mouth. I probably did that same thing whenever I sat in the chair all the way up through adolescence without ever thinking about it.

It's these life experience's that we use to create our own beliefs, but all too often, someone helps us along, parents, siblings, teachers, mentors, priests. It's called indoctrination, programming, brainwashing and it involves (whether the intentions are good or bad) not just giving you the ready made beleifs but applying every sort of psychological trick in the book. In this way, most people are deprived from using their own life experiences to create their own unique beliefs.

Some people never question their own beliefs or those "given" to them and procede through life in an almost robotic way indoctrinating, programming, brainwashing others, repeating the same old patterns that brought them to believe what they believe. But at some point, some people stop and question, perhaps not everything, but maybe one or two things. They search, they learn, they struggle to de-program those old beliefs and replace them with their own creations.

Then comes the ego, the trap that closes the mind.

Most people don't realize that they have very little choice in what they actually believe. I mean, how do you change your beliefs? You don't just wake up and say, "today, I'm going to believe in "X" the way you'd choose to put on a blue dress or have green eggs and ham for breakfast. Your beliefs are the result of your life's experiences, the things you've been "given," the things you've seen, heard and touched, and the things you have questioned, researched, and discovered for yourself. Your life experience, the beliefs you've been "given," the things you see, hear, and touch, these things are not entirely under your control, so how can you help but to believe in certain things the way you do?

Formulating your OWN beliefs requires tremendous effort. Not physical effort, of course, as it would require to break out of a cage, but mental effort to break free of the ego, that is, effort to stop identifying yourself with what you believe.

It's the old peculiar habit of identifying with one's beliefs that closes the mind to new information. You (we) grow up believing "X" having been "given" that belief or having experienced something that created it in your (our) own mind. Someone says, "there is no X." You (we) DON'T say (as you SHOULD,) "hmm, I wonder what makes him say that," but rather you (we) take it as a personal affront. "What do you mean, 'there is no X'? Are you calling me a liar? Whats wrong with you? Get away from me! I hate you!" And so on so forth.....

Most people take something like "there is no X" as a challenge or a personal affront, rather than an opportunity to question ones own beliefs, research the life experiences of the other person that has "given" him the belief that "there is no X" and progress.

It's not about being right and wrong, its about learning new things and progressing to a new level, evolving.

Meanwhile, if you aren't progressing, you're likely closing your mind to life experience of others, keeping your identity locked in that cage of ego. And if you're doing that, then you'll tend to react to the beliefs of others with "You're wrong!" "You're a liar!" "You're a fool!" "You're an idiot!".......etc, etc.

If you have a tendency to insult or attack others because of your beliefs, to hate others because of what they believe, etc., then you'd better take a good look at the lock on your egotistic cage.

Accepting and trying to "really" understand the beliefs of others in relation to your unlocking your "cage", requires study how one arrived at his or her own beliefs. Accepting the beliefs of others as possibilities depending on new life experience that must be researched, questioning your OWN beliefs always ready to abandon them for new horizons......thats how one evolves, progress's. Thats the only way to truly "love thy neighbor." Thats truly the only way to "enlightenment."

As for my ego and beliefs, I'm not perfect, but I live in a constant state of total amazement....."

regards
seekerof

But isn't that a problem? When you say in your last paragraph, you have to be ready to abandon your beliefs to explore new horizons. It can be really hard to change a belief and just move onto the next one. It can be really difficult to change a belief.

How about if I simplify it by saying this:
Believing in God may be considered irrational but disbelieving in a God is absurd......

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by maynardsthirdeye
That is the thing. If he is perfect, he should know those things are terrible and he should be ashamed.

But what Hell? What are the different views of Hell?

Again, this is in accordance with your very limited, human view. God doens't have the same limitations.

Hell. Hell was created simply for Satan and His followers. Eve believed the lie and pursuaded Adam into being moronic, this bought us spots in a place to which we were not meant. God, having that great knowledge and endless love, knew that He could not violate His own law, had His Son pay the price for our sin. Hell is a choice. None has to go. A gift gets you saved from it.

Seekerof, I'm sorry if I misled you into thinking I'm trying to trap people in an attempt to destroy their religion. I do like you version of Christianity though.

Thanks!

Thomas Crowne said:

["God, having that great knowledge and endless love, knew that He could not violate His own law"]

Are you sure?

"Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."

-Hosea 13:16

"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks!"

-Psalms 137:9

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

-Musa -Numbers 31:17


And that's only a few instances. Not to mention the times when Jahovah killed people himself and had the Israelites loot the towns that they pillaged.

The Torah(Numbers 31:17) pretty much implies that many women were raped because what woman would willingly get with a man who just destroyed her town and killed her kids and husband

Disgusting.


ONE


[Edited on 19-7-2003 by Tamahu]

It just makes me wonder how a person can judge Someone he/she doesn't even know??

Originally posted by Tamahu
Thomas Crowne said:

["God, having that great knowledge and endless love, knew that He could not violate His own law"]

Are you sure?

"Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."

-Hosea 13:16

"Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks!"

-Psalms 137:9

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

-Musa -Numbers 31:17


And that's only a few instances. Not to mention the times when Jahovah killed people himself and had the Israelites loot the towns that they pillaged.

The Torah(Numbers 31:17) pretty much implies that many women were raped because what woman would willingly get with a man who just destroyed her town and killed her kids and husband

Disgusting.


ONE


[Edited on 19-7-2003 by Tamahu]

Tamahu, I have always respected your views and I still do but I question something.
If God is "All", as you say and agree He is....do you think that He can violate His own Laws? God's Laws (ie: all laws concerning nature, space and time, etc.) are perfect. It is 'we', you and I, etc., that break and "manipulate" those laws....

Again, I see that God is being "defined" and further "confined" by 'books/holy text'. All holy texts are not the "true" expressions of God, they are merely glimpse's of. Your idea's of God being different from the Christian God or any other religion's God is questionable. God is God; to all people, all religions, etc. God does not change...we change God, if you ubderstand what I am meaning.

Its good to see you back posting and commenting Tamahu.

regards
seekerof