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Songs of Ascent-Psalm 133 When brethren dwell in unity
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If the Songs of Ascent were being used in sequence, then Psalm 133 comes very close to the end of that sequence.
V1 “Behold, how good and pleasing it is when brothers dwell in unity.”
Most of the sequence has been discussing the community’s relationship with their God. It would seem very fitting that the unity of the community should be one of the winding-up themes.
The previous Psalm 132 appears to be a psalm associated with a procession outside the temple. Once the procession had come to an end, everybody would be re-united back inside the temple, and that setting could be another reason prompting the worshippers to think of “unity”.
There is a flaw in this theory. I have suggested that the supposed procession was carrying the ark of the Lord, but the Songs of Ascent as a whole seem to belong to the period of the second temple, when the ark had gone missing. However, a religious ritual does not necessarily cease to occur simply because the original function has disappeared.
“Good and pleasing” is quite mild as an expression of satisfaction.
But it is now supplemented by two similes which have a very deep symbolism.
V2 “It is like the precious oil running down upon the beard of Aaron.”
How can it be like oil, and how is the resemblance a good thing?
The original reference is the consecration of Aaron to serve as priest in the tabernacle (Exodus ch29), when he was clad in the sacred garments and the holy anointing oil was poured upon his head. By extension, it refers to the repetition of this act whenever a successor to Aaron is being consecrated.
Now what we need to understand is that this oil represents the outpouring of the Spirit of God upon the new high priest. (Ignore John Allego)
So the meaning of the simile is that the love which allows brothers to dwell together in unity is also the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
In other words, this verse makes the same theological point as 1 Corinthians ch13.
The image of the act of consecration helps to date this psalm.
In the time of the kingdom, it was the king who received the anointing, from Samuel’s anointing of Saul onwards.
But in the later days of the kingdom there was an ongoing struggle between the kings and the temple priesthood over control and the claim to be God’s representative.
In Zechariah’s time, the line of David and the priestly line were evidently asserting rival claims to be “the Lord’s anointed”. That’s why the prophet makes such a point of identifying TWO anointed ones who stand by the Lord. He means Joshua the high priest, and the Davidic representative Zerubbabel.
This verse shows that the psalm belongs to the time of the second temple, when the high priests had won the battle for supremacy and the line of David disappeared into obscurity.
V3 “It is like the dew of Hermon, which falls on the mountains of Zion.”
First question; how does Mount Hermon in the north send dew to Zion?
I think I must call on my memories of school geography here. Any moisture in the air of Palestine comes from the Mediterranean. As I see it, heat is evaporating it from the sea into the atmosphere; any west winds take the moisture-filled air over the mountains of the Lebanon, where it cools and the moisture precipitates into clouds and dew. The dew remains on Hermon, contributing to the lushness of the Lebanon landscape (as described in the Song of Solomon). Then the clouds may be carried southwards to the the mountains of Jerusalem. To observers on the ground, it would appear that Hermon’s water-wealth is the source of the rains of Zion.
How does the unity of the brethren resemble this rain? The answer is in the final line.
“For there the Lord has commanded the blessing, life for evermore.”
The rain that falls on Zion is a blessing from the Lord, one of the many blessings that he has promised to Zion.
If the spirit of unity is like the rain, then the spirit of unity is also a blessing direct from the Lord.
So the overall moral of the psalm is that unity among the brethren is a gift and blessing from the Lord.
It is a preliminary taste of the “life for evermore” which is the ultimate blessing.
V1 “Behold, how good and pleasing it is when brothers dwell in unity.”
Most of the sequence has been discussing the community’s relationship with their God. It would seem very fitting that the unity of the community should be one of the winding-up themes.
The previous Psalm 132 appears to be a psalm associated with a procession outside the temple. Once the procession had come to an end, everybody would be re-united back inside the temple, and that setting could be another reason prompting the worshippers to think of “unity”.
There is a flaw in this theory. I have suggested that the supposed procession was carrying the ark of the Lord, but the Songs of Ascent as a whole seem to belong to the period of the second temple, when the ark had gone missing. However, a religious ritual does not necessarily cease to occur simply because the original function has disappeared.
“Good and pleasing” is quite mild as an expression of satisfaction.
But it is now supplemented by two similes which have a very deep symbolism.
V2 “It is like the precious oil running down upon the beard of Aaron.”
How can it be like oil, and how is the resemblance a good thing?
The original reference is the consecration of Aaron to serve as priest in the tabernacle (Exodus ch29), when he was clad in the sacred garments and the holy anointing oil was poured upon his head. By extension, it refers to the repetition of this act whenever a successor to Aaron is being consecrated.
Now what we need to understand is that this oil represents the outpouring of the Spirit of God upon the new high priest. (Ignore John Allego)
So the meaning of the simile is that the love which allows brothers to dwell together in unity is also the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
In other words, this verse makes the same theological point as 1 Corinthians ch13.
The image of the act of consecration helps to date this psalm.
In the time of the kingdom, it was the king who received the anointing, from Samuel’s anointing of Saul onwards.
But in the later days of the kingdom there was an ongoing struggle between the kings and the temple priesthood over control and the claim to be God’s representative.
In Zechariah’s time, the line of David and the priestly line were evidently asserting rival claims to be “the Lord’s anointed”. That’s why the prophet makes such a point of identifying TWO anointed ones who stand by the Lord. He means Joshua the high priest, and the Davidic representative Zerubbabel.
This verse shows that the psalm belongs to the time of the second temple, when the high priests had won the battle for supremacy and the line of David disappeared into obscurity.
V3 “It is like the dew of Hermon, which falls on the mountains of Zion.”
First question; how does Mount Hermon in the north send dew to Zion?
I think I must call on my memories of school geography here. Any moisture in the air of Palestine comes from the Mediterranean. As I see it, heat is evaporating it from the sea into the atmosphere; any west winds take the moisture-filled air over the mountains of the Lebanon, where it cools and the moisture precipitates into clouds and dew. The dew remains on Hermon, contributing to the lushness of the Lebanon landscape (as described in the Song of Solomon). Then the clouds may be carried southwards to the the mountains of Jerusalem. To observers on the ground, it would appear that Hermon’s water-wealth is the source of the rains of Zion.
How does the unity of the brethren resemble this rain? The answer is in the final line.
“For there the Lord has commanded the blessing, life for evermore.”
The rain that falls on Zion is a blessing from the Lord, one of the many blessings that he has promised to Zion.
If the spirit of unity is like the rain, then the spirit of unity is also a blessing direct from the Lord.
So the overall moral of the psalm is that unity among the brethren is a gift and blessing from the Lord.
It is a preliminary taste of the “life for evermore” which is the ultimate blessing.
The above are my own independent thoughts on the psalm. Having got that far, I will now open up Weiser’s commentary to gain a different perspective,
as I’ve been doing in the previous threads in this particular series.
He suggest that v1 is a “Wisdom saying”, recommending the example of the old custom of literal brothers living together in one family circle, as in the days of the patriarchs.
In v2, he sees the beauties in the physical experience. The deliciously scented oil. The beauty and dignity of the long flowing beard.
Similarly in v3 he sees a summer morning, in which Zion has been refreshed by an ample fall of dew “and now in the radiant freshness and splendour of its colours presents a picture of rejuvenated beauty and joy in life”. It is “dew of Hermon” only in the sense that it matches the ample quantity of the dew known to fall on Hermon.
Nevertheless, he does pick up the “coming down”, and take the point that everything is coming down from God.
+++
Hear also what Matthew Henry saith.
The point of the “oil” image is that it is both fragrant and plentiful. Brotherly love should be the same. Christ’s love for mankind is part of this “oil of gladness” with which he was anointed.
Just as Aaron and his sons could not minister before the Lord before being anointed, so our services are not acceptable to God without this holy love.
As dews cool the air, so this love cools the scorching heat of men’s passions. Loving people are blessed people. “Those that dwell in love not only dwell in God, but do already dwell in heaven.”
He suggest that v1 is a “Wisdom saying”, recommending the example of the old custom of literal brothers living together in one family circle, as in the days of the patriarchs.
In v2, he sees the beauties in the physical experience. The deliciously scented oil. The beauty and dignity of the long flowing beard.
Similarly in v3 he sees a summer morning, in which Zion has been refreshed by an ample fall of dew “and now in the radiant freshness and splendour of its colours presents a picture of rejuvenated beauty and joy in life”. It is “dew of Hermon” only in the sense that it matches the ample quantity of the dew known to fall on Hermon.
Nevertheless, he does pick up the “coming down”, and take the point that everything is coming down from God.
+++
Hear also what Matthew Henry saith.
The point of the “oil” image is that it is both fragrant and plentiful. Brotherly love should be the same. Christ’s love for mankind is part of this “oil of gladness” with which he was anointed.
Just as Aaron and his sons could not minister before the Lord before being anointed, so our services are not acceptable to God without this holy love.
As dews cool the air, so this love cools the scorching heat of men’s passions. Loving people are blessed people. “Those that dwell in love not only dwell in God, but do already dwell in heaven.”
edit on 3-12-2021 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)
Other than Christ has anyone ever seen The Father ?
edit on th125588 by Smigg because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Smigg
I thought something of the kind was coming, because your technique is transparent. The innocent-sounding question designed to draw out an answer, then an attack on the answer.
I wil give an answer to your immediate question, but I won't enter into any further debate on that issue here for this reason;
The topic of this thread is Psalm 133. The philosophy of ATS is that the subject being discussed in a thread is the topic defined by the opening post, and anything wandering away from that subject is "off-topic".
The deliberate derailing of religious threads by sending discussion off into irrelevant topics used to be a common strategy on these boards. For that reason I've always made a point of refusing to be drawn off-topic in my own threads. I stick to the subject in hand. It's possible that my own refusal to play ball is one of the reasons why the anti-religious trolls gave up trying and went away.
In future, if you want to trip me up by asking awkward questions, you will need to wait until I launch a thread entitled "Please try to trip me up by asking awkward questions". If you ask an awkward question in a thread of your own, I will respond if I feel like doing it.
Now to the question you posted. You have chosen a bad counter-example, because there is no statement in the text of Genesis about Adam seeing God.
On Old Testament examples of "seeing God" in general (e.g.Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel), the short answer is that none of them "see" God in any real sense. No man can see God, as John rightly says, because no man's mind can take in the fullness of what God really is. It would be like trying to pour a gallon into a pint pot. Whenever any Old Testament figure "sees" God, the most that he sees is a symbolic image accommodating itself to his understanding, and designed to give him some sense of "being in the presence of God". It's like a filter, shielding his eyes. "The angel of the Lord" is just such an image.
So you're hoping to achieve things by the old adolescent strategy of "I can prove religion wrong by finding contradictions in the Bible! Ha, ha, ha!" How very boring.
I thought something of the kind was coming, because your technique is transparent. The innocent-sounding question designed to draw out an answer, then an attack on the answer.
I wil give an answer to your immediate question, but I won't enter into any further debate on that issue here for this reason;
The topic of this thread is Psalm 133. The philosophy of ATS is that the subject being discussed in a thread is the topic defined by the opening post, and anything wandering away from that subject is "off-topic".
The deliberate derailing of religious threads by sending discussion off into irrelevant topics used to be a common strategy on these boards. For that reason I've always made a point of refusing to be drawn off-topic in my own threads. I stick to the subject in hand. It's possible that my own refusal to play ball is one of the reasons why the anti-religious trolls gave up trying and went away.
In future, if you want to trip me up by asking awkward questions, you will need to wait until I launch a thread entitled "Please try to trip me up by asking awkward questions". If you ask an awkward question in a thread of your own, I will respond if I feel like doing it.
Now to the question you posted. You have chosen a bad counter-example, because there is no statement in the text of Genesis about Adam seeing God.
On Old Testament examples of "seeing God" in general (e.g.Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel), the short answer is that none of them "see" God in any real sense. No man can see God, as John rightly says, because no man's mind can take in the fullness of what God really is. It would be like trying to pour a gallon into a pint pot. Whenever any Old Testament figure "sees" God, the most that he sees is a symbolic image accommodating itself to his understanding, and designed to give him some sense of "being in the presence of God". It's like a filter, shielding his eyes. "The angel of the Lord" is just such an image.
So you're hoping to achieve things by the old adolescent strategy of "I can prove religion wrong by finding contradictions in the Bible! Ha, ha, ha!" How very boring.
edit on 4-12-2021 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Smigg
I thought something of the kind was coming, because your technique is transparent. The innocent-sounding question designed to draw out an answer, then an attack on the answer.
I wil give an answer to your immediate question, but I won't enter into any further debate on that issue here for this reason;
The topic of this thread is Psalm 133. The philosophy of ATS is that the subject being discussed in a thread is the topic defined by the opening post, and anything wandering away from that subject is "off-topic".
The deliberate derailing of religious threads by sending discussion off into irrelevant topics used to be a common strategy on these boards. For that reason I've always made a point of refusing to be drawn off-topic in my own threads. I stick to the subject in hand. It's possible that my own refusal to play ball is one of the reasons why the anti-religious trolls gave up trying and went away.
In future, if you want to trip me up by asking awkward questions, you will need to wait until I launch a thread entitled "Please try to trip me up by asking awkward questions". If you ask an awkward question in a thread of your own, I will respond if I feel like doing it.
Now to the question you posted. You have chosen a bad counter-example, because there is no statement in the text of Genesis about Adam seeing God.
On Old Testament examples of "seeing God" in general (e.g.Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel), the short answer is that none of them "see" God in any real sense. No man can see God, as John rightly says, because no man's mind can take in the fullness of what God really is. It would be like trying to pour a gallon into a pint pot. Whenever any Old Testament figure "sees" God, the most that he sees is a symbolic image accommodating itself to his understanding, and designed to give him some sense of "being in the presence of God". It's like a filter, shielding his eyes. "The angel of the Lord" is just such an image.
So you're hoping to achieve things by the old adolescent strategy of "I can prove religion wrong by finding contradictions in the Bible! Ha, ha, ha!" How very boring.
Sorry I didn't realise that you would perceive me asking that question as a deliberate attempt at derailing this thread, I did consider a PM but no one was commenting on this thread, maybe in hindsight a PM would have been the best course of action.
Why are you so defensive, you hold true in your beliefs with such pride how could anyone trip you up or prove your religion to be wrong, I think that's something we both can agree on at least.
I agree it doesn't state that Adam and Eve saw God with their own eyes, just lots of interaction with no explanation as to God's form during those interactions.
edit on th12101111 by Smigg because: (no reason given)
a reply to: Smigg
I do sometimes respond to people asking genuine questions looking for greater understanding.
But a genuine seeker after truth would have asked both questions together. I've already noticed "the old one-two" as a feature of your debating style, which is why the first question alone was enough to put me on the alert.
If you want to be recognised as someone discussing Christian matters in good faith, your previous threads and posts have started you off on the wrong foot.
I do sometimes respond to people asking genuine questions looking for greater understanding.
But a genuine seeker after truth would have asked both questions together. I've already noticed "the old one-two" as a feature of your debating style, which is why the first question alone was enough to put me on the alert.
If you want to be recognised as someone discussing Christian matters in good faith, your previous threads and posts have started you off on the wrong foot.
edit on 4-12-2021 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Smigg
I do sometimes respond to people asking genuine questions looking for greater understanding.
But a genuine seeker after truth would have asked both questions together.
What is it that makes you believe you have a greater understanding of the truth and I have not ?
a reply to: Smigg
NO ONE has because the father is an all consuming fire, a fire infolding upon itself.
I would not like to come into the presence of the Almighty Father because of the fact he is in the midst of fire. to draw near in a sinful body would have burned us up. But Jesus, the fullness of the father and the godhead bodily, being in the likeness of a man, that devouring fire is not seen. What we see is his (the father) nature displayed, his (the father) holiness displayed, his (the father) endurance displayed, his (the father) will displayed and his (the father) love displayed.
NO ONE has because the father is an all consuming fire, a fire infolding upon itself.
I would not like to come into the presence of the Almighty Father because of the fact he is in the midst of fire. to draw near in a sinful body would have burned us up. But Jesus, the fullness of the father and the godhead bodily, being in the likeness of a man, that devouring fire is not seen. What we see is his (the father) nature displayed, his (the father) holiness displayed, his (the father) endurance displayed, his (the father) will displayed and his (the father) love displayed.
edit on 12/5/2021 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)
a reply to: DISRAELI
it is Sophism where you add words or change words, ask questions using them to try and confuse you opponent. The original Sophists used this on the Greek Scholars and Other Greek Philosophers. This is the same practice in All American Schools utilized by almost all teachers. This 1-2 punch is a signature proof they are a sophist if not in name but in practice.
However, Disraeli, there is a problem for you. Because you condemn him for the same practice you participate in. You don't use the direct 1-2 but you still changes words and question to confound and confuse your readers.
it is Sophism where you add words or change words, ask questions using them to try and confuse you opponent. The original Sophists used this on the Greek Scholars and Other Greek Philosophers. This is the same practice in All American Schools utilized by almost all teachers. This 1-2 punch is a signature proof they are a sophist if not in name but in practice.
However, Disraeli, there is a problem for you. Because you condemn him for the same practice you participate in. You don't use the direct 1-2 but you still changes words and question to confound and confuse your readers.
edit on 12/5/2021 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Smigg
NO ONE has because the father is an all consuming fire, a fire infolding upon itself.
I would not like to come into the presence of the Almighty Father because of the fact he is in the midst of fire. to draw near in a sinful body would have burned us up. But Jesus, the fullness of the father and the godhead bodily, being in the likeness of a man, that devouring fire is not seen. What we see is his (the father) nature displayed, his (the father) holiness displayed, his (the father) endurance displayed, his (the father) will displayed and his (the father) love displayed.
God The Farther is a spiritual consciousness, out of His consciousness came creation, Christ is the Son of that God and spiritually so are we. The God that created us is also a creation of God The Father, Christ is to take over from the God that created us so we can return to God The Farther.
a reply to: Smigg
anything but believe the Bible.
While one verse says he is spirit two verses say he is a consuming fire.
anything but believe the Bible.
While one verse says he is spirit two verses say he is a consuming fire.
Deut 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Smigg
anything but believe the Bible.
While one verse says he is spirit two verses say he is a consuming fire.
Deut 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
Those verse are true, he's a spirit of fire but not The God, a God.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Smigg
anything but believe the AV 1611 Bible.
The Bible is a half truth you must find your way through to find the truth.
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