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NEWS: Arizona Civilian Border Patrol Targeted by MS-13 Gang Members

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posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 04:54 AM
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This weekend marks the beginning of a month-long patrol of the US-Mexico border region in Arizona, by members of the local militia. The militia members will be armed, travelling in groups, and on the lookout for suspicious activity, smugglers, and illegal aliens trying to enter. Their principle opponent in this endeavor, besides scores of protesters expected, is the Latin American gang known as MS-13. The gang has dispatched soldiers to confront the militiamen, and "teach them a lesson." The milita men don't appear too worried, their ranks are thick with former soldiers and trained gunmen - unfortunately for them they are prohibited from carrying rifles, only sidearms will be allowed. Obviously, no such restrictions have been placed on the soldiers contracted by MS-13. This is a volatile situation, to say the least.
 



www.washtimes.com
Members of a violent Central America-based gang have been sent to Arizona to target Minuteman Project volunteers, who will begin a monthlong border vigil this weekend to find and report foreigner sneaking into the United States, project officials say.

James Gilchrist, a Vietnam veteran who helped organize the vigil to protest the federal government's failure to control illegal immigration, said he has been told that California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


This could get very, very ugly. There are two sizable groups of armed men about to shoot it out on the Arizona border. There is no word on how the understaffed border patrol plans to defuse or monitor the situation, it appears they are going to sit this one out. There has been a great deal of discussion on the issue of porous borders, and the general consensus in America is that more needs to be done to prevent illegal entry, and stop the shipments of drugs and guns that routinely make their way across the desert to end up in cities and parks across America.

I for one, hope that nobody gets killed, but there are several factors that are coming together to reduce the likelyhood of a bloodless outcome. The primary disadvantages facing the militia men are 1. the fact that they aren't allowed to patrol with rifles 2. the fact that they will have to contend with American protesters in addition to hired killers 3. they are receiving no official back-up from our government 4. they have been instructed to light fires and make noise, to make their presence known - this is a very big mistake, and they would have a much better chance at survival if this action was conducted ambush style.

I hope it doesn't turn out the way it think it will. I'll just leave it at that.




posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 07:14 AM
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How is gonna check on them if they keep to these ridiculous rules
?



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 07:26 AM
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The Minutemen are being observed by protesters, most likely police, perhaps international observers, and of course, illegals. If they so much as pass gas it will be likely be observed.

There has been some speculation that attendance will be low, and the event might be called off because of threats of violence. This story should develop more as the week progresses.

April 1 is D-Day.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 07:30 AM
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The should line up with 50 calibre machine guns, and when those scum gangsters come they all get shot. Thats street justice and nobody will miss those rapists, murderers, and extortionist. Bringing back the minuteman is just what we need.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The Minutemen are being observed by protesters, most likely police, perhaps international observers, and of course, illegals. If they so much as pass gas it will be likely be observed.

There has been some speculation that attendance will be low, and the event might be called off because of threats of violence. This story should develop more as the week progresses.

April 1 is D-Day.


Nice post on an extremely volitile issue Wyrdeone! Clearly the Present administration in the Whitehouse does not see fit to protect American Citizens by increasing border security. This would be a perfect opportunity to use the National Gaurd, but unfortunately they are playing "policemen" over in the Midldle East rather than here at home. To be sure, the frequent and illicit excursions into American territory by quasi-Mexican Military has already been well documented....now add to this the threats from MS-13, and we now have the potential for some real "fireworks."

Clearly there is a place for legal immigration in this country...there has always been.....However the unmitigated flow of illegals is adding ecomonic hardship to American citizens and their cities, states and local school systems, which can't be accepted as a "zero sum game" any longer.

The cost of illegals to this country should be passed back to the host countries from which they come...in this case it's Mexico...and if they don't pay up...then take over Pemex! We need the oil anyway! ( Just a thought)

The bottom line is this......if any American is injured by the illegals and MS-13...There will be hell to pay! Even soccer moms would be hard pressed not to get riled up about Americans getting hurt while trying to protect our Borders! Especially since the Governement won't do it!



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 08:59 AM
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cafeman
Thanks.
I agree it's a volatile issue, and I agree that there will be hell to pay if someone gets hurt. The question is, who picks up the tab, who pays? I don't think this administration has anything to do with it, at least not any more so than any preceeding administration. They are equally dependant on the double talk for which politics has become famous. If you say what you're going to do, you won't get elected, and if you do what you said you would, your campaign war chest will be nonexistent next election because special interests lose interest.

It's a no win situation for the American people, allowing money into politics. The immigration thing is particularly touchy because every president promises to do something about it, and none of them do. They talk the talk, but can't walk the walk.

I think supporting vigilantes is probably not a good idea if we want to maintain the status quo, but then again, the status quo hasn't been very kind to us. I think there're benefits and risks to policing yourself, and protecting your own family, I'm sure the pros and cons will become painfully evident before the month is through.

I bet they kill some illegals, probably at least one accidentally, a mother or a young kid, or a US citizen. And I bet the minutemen lose some troops to rifle fire from the impassive hills and gulleys. And who's to blame? The illegals are just trying to do what's best for their family. So are the minutemen. So who's to blame? I blame the people who put in place this double standard, and those who maintain it, who continue to spit in the faces of the American people by sacrificing our life, liberty, and happiness, for their bottom line. The administration and those pulling their strings aren't in it for survival, they're in it for 30% margins and a continuation of their drug habits and personal vices.

This situation only adds to the unrest in the country. The issue of immigration is about to be pushed squarely into the limelight, and it will be interesting to see what happens because of that fact.

We need open borders or closed secure borders, there's no other sensible option.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 09:29 AM
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Thanks for the post Wyrdeone...

I am not quite sure about all the hub-bub. I suspect that within the next 20 years or so, the borders that we are all familiar with will either change dramatically, or go away. Kind of interesting to sit around and mentally doodle and see the continent turn into many little "sovereign states". Kind of like Europe on steroids.


It's also sad to think that some people may very well end up dying over this, only to see it all resolve itself in an aura of inevitibility.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 09:32 AM
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WyrdeOne
I agree with much of your insight on this issue, and I did not mean to imply that the Bush Administration was anymore culpable on this issue than any other previous administration. Indeed they are all complicit in the plight we find ourselve in currently.

Normally I don't support "vilgilantes", however in this case it's hard not to have some admiration for those American Citizens who at their own expense feel complelled to stop this madness. I also know there are some nuts involved in the Minutemen movement; however perhaps I am becoming a bit Machivellian (sp) on this topic because I feel that not ALL of the illegals coming across our borders have their families OR our best interest at heart, and therein lays the problem.

I agree with you on this fact....either complete "OPEN ORDERS" with full economic intergration and Host Governmental responsibility regarding the cost of illegals to the American Public.....or Completely Secure Borders.

On another front......Is'nt interesting that Hilary Clinton is now postioning herself as an anti open borders advocate! Politics....ain't it GRAND!



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 09:43 AM
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Great posting,
This goes along with my posting www.abovetopsecret.com...'
This is a problem that is getting to be way, way out of hand and if the US goverment does not / cannot resolve it, then the American people need to work on it.
The MS-13 gang members are one of the major targets that the NY police department has targeted with their ICE program.
I vote you Way Above.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 09:43 AM
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cafeman
Yeah, the Hillary Clinton thing is just ridiculous, the whole 2 party system is a farce, our elected officials are free to stab us in the back as many times as they like, and most people don't even realize it. Actually, most realize it in some form or fashion, but they're so used to it they just accept it. I talk to people day in, day out, and I hear the same thing nearly EVERY conversation, "Yeah, that's just the way it is, what are ya' gonna' do?" It's the same sentiment, repeated from a hundred thousand mouths. "What are ya' gonna' do?"

Well, somebody is doing something. That's heartening at least. I actually don't have that much of a problem with vigilantes, except of course if it became law, then everybody would be enforcing their personal ethics on everyone else at the barrel of a gun.

I have no problem enforcing my personal ethics within the confines of my property, that's a given. What's a little wierd about this situation, is people are coming in to Arizona from all corners of the country, it's more of a protest than a vigilante action.

This is an interesting situation, I'm following it very closely. I don't want to give the impression I think what the vigilantes are doing is 'wrong' per se, and I certainly don't want to give the impression that I think what the illegals are doing is 'right' because there's more to it than that. I think some of the illegals are crossing illegaly, risking life and limb, for noble causes. And some are doing it for money, or out of disrespect for our laws. Just like some guys are going down to Arizona HOPING they'll get to shoot a Mexican, and some are going down there because they're interested in protecting their family and their way of life - preferably without bloodshed.

There are real people on both sides of this issue, and they all have needs. If those needs don't get adressed by the law, they WILL most likely break the law. Of course nobody NEEDS drug-money palaces, but the mules need their piddly cut just to put food on the table, and the domestic drug dealers need supply to keep up with demand, and the politicians need to come out smelling like roses no matter what happens. How do we adress all these needs?

I also want to be clear that what these Minutemen are doing is perfectly within the confines of the law, and as long as they abide by the law they're not doing anything that could be considered an arrestable offense.

Edit: Thanks for adding that link Kenshiro, I hadn't had a chance to read your article before, but now I will. It's very relevant, and I very much appreciate the context it provides.
I should have linked to it myself in the initial article, but I didn't even know it existed.
Thanks!

Edited Again to include one of my older threads I forgot even existed.
This thread also talks about ICE, particularly the stings that took place recently and pointed to the magnitude of the problem with MS-13.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 28-3-2005 by WyrdeOne]

[edit on 28-3-2005 by WyrdeOne]



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:02 AM
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First of all, the Minutemen are not vigilantes. They are not going down there to confront the illegals or to even try to stop them. They are simply going to look and report what they see to the border patrol. They are taking water and first aid supplies in case any of the illegals need help. The ACLU has threatened to sue them, and our President called them vigilantes. The MS-13 is going because they want to make sure their members and drugs make it through. The Arizona and Federal authorities should (but wont) show up en-masse and arrest the gang members on sight. I guarantee, if there is shooting, the gang members will start it, and the minutemen will get the blame. The reason our government won't get serious about the border is because the CFR wants illegal immigration. It redistributes the wealth to the socialists and suck America dry. A broke America is a controllable America. It is just that simple. Both Bush and Clinton have failed their oath to protect against all enemies foreign and domestic.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:09 AM
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Well said papagrinch!

If any Minuteman are killed or injured due to MS-13, you can expect their numbers to grow. Americans are waking up to the fact that we're being lied to and as Wyrdeone says, "the status quo hasn't been very kind to us"

Whats worse is our on government has turned against them, calling them "vigilantes". Uncle Sam will trip over their own feet to support groups like La Raza and MALDEF, while stabbing the minuteman in the back.

I voted for President Bush, but on the border issues with Mexico, I feel he has let us down and is no different than a liberal administration.

I support the Minuteman (financially) and personally, I think anyone caught illegally crossing our border should have all the proper warnings and sent home. Repeat offenders should be knee-capped with a 9mm.


Maximu§

[edit on 103131p://111 by LA_Maximus]



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Well said papagrinch!

If any Minuteman are killed or injured due to MS-13, you can expect their numbers to grow. Americans are waking up to the fact that we're being lied to and as Wyrdeone says, "the status quo hasn't been very kind to us"

Whats worse is our on government has turned against them, calling them "vigilantes". Uncle Sam will trip over their own feet to support groups like La Raza and MALDEF, while stabbing the minuteman in the back.......
[edit on 103131p://111 by LA_Mamus]


Point well made Maximus.....LA RAZA= THE RACE! How do they get away with their extortion politics in border states such as California, Arizona, Texas is beyond me! The KKK, The New Black Panther Party, nor Hamas don't get way with such antics! Nor should they!



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 10:50 AM
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Bush is not responsible! He has only been in office 6 years and invaded two countries. What makes people think he should be held accountable?

BULL

Bush is responsible. The Mexican border is part of his turf- 'to defend against all . . .' Bush has played fast a loose with the illegal alien problem since he was governor of Texas. This group in Arizona is just the beginning. As more Americans (of many ethniticities) become more frustrated, vigilante groups will appear but not publicly.

The MS-13 is nationwide gangsters of the first order. They will do a Josey Wales (kill your family, your friends, your dog .. .) on all that oppose them. Any vigilante group coming up against these guys needs to be in it for the long haul.

Couple of ATS threads relating to MS-13
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

cafeman, La Raza has been around a long, long time. MS-13 and their ilk are the new boys on the block and very nasty. They may use La Raza but MS-13 will be in charge.
(too bad the warns- your Wolfie comment made me laugh



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
cafeman, La Raza has been around a long, long time. MS-13 and their ilk are the new boys on the block and very nasty. They may use La Raza but MS-13 will be in charge.
(too bad the warns- your Wolfie comment made me laugh

[/quote

Joe Doaks
Thanks Joe....don't want to get too far off topic here....but I am still perplexed by the warns I received. Oh well...live and Learn! BTW MS-13 is indeed part of the effort to smuggle terrorist into this country....and should be dealt with accordingly!



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 11:58 AM
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Good Post WyrdeOne

I applaud the minuteman project. It appears they are a peaceful group.I did some checking I found this info:
The civil homeland defense corp states they recorded 4,112 non-violent assists. Volunteers have made 157 rescues of men, women and children who were peovided life-saving water, first aid, blankets and food while volunteers waited for Border Patrol agents to arrive on scene to deport groups.
Link: www.civilhomelanddefense.us...

Also... FYI...there are former and active U.S. law enforcement personnel that are actively volunteering and working with this group....read members
on link and also on link (1) current or former members of any U.S. law enforcement organization.
Link: www.minuteman-project.com...



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 12:04 PM
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ms_bhavn
Thanks very much. And thanks as well for posting those links, they're very informative. I actually read through them before posting, and again
I should have included them in the original post. Thanks very much, to you, and to the other contributors who have picked up my slack in this thread. It's appreciated.



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 12:14 PM
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I wonder if this is just a coincidence or is it perhaps a way of Presidente Fox putting up a show of force in the area? I find it very odd that he would pick next week for this to happen.


Mexico is mobilizing 6,400 soldiers next week to its northern states in response to a vicious drug war that has left nearly 200 people dead this year, officials said.

Source



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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shots... thanks for the link
Just guessing... but it might have to do with the recent gathering of Bush, President Fox and the Canadian Prime Minister on border issues. This was reported by CNN news. But haven't heard any more about it....maybe this is to pacify Bush????



posted on Mar, 28 2005 @ 12:40 PM
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I support the Minuteman project 100%, even though I understand why the illegal immigrants are doing what they are doing as well. The majority are just trying to live a better life, and I would do the same thing. However, as an American citizen I also understand the need to secure the border and it's not being done. I live in Southeastern Arizona about 50 miles north of the border and see Border Patrol vehicles up there almost every day.

In fact, yesterday, I saw a group of 30 - 40 illegals on the side of the road with a Border Patrol agent. And one of the illegals was sneaking around trying to steal the Border Patrol truck.

But I digress. While I understand that vigilanteism can lead to disaster, these people aren't your average vigilante. They're regular U.S. citizens that are sitting on private property with permission and observing and reporting. From what I've read, their orders are to avoid personal contact with them completely unless they need medical help. And people with weapons must keep them holstered at all times.

Personally, I still think that a better project would have been to raise money nationwide to go down and build a wall on the private property along the border. The majority of the landowners would love it - their property gets trashed from the thousands of people walking through a day. I would've volunteered for that. Actually, I would've volunteered for this but I won't be in the area much this next month.

Border Patrol is seriously understaffed in the area. They focus on a large area and within a day, everyone's started coming into the area they just left. And back and forth.



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