The #1 heresy today... Why we don't have to "repent of sin" to be saved...

a reply to: whereislogic

Friend if we are lawless we aren't obeying the law, and sin is a transgression of the law, another way we could say that is lawless... So if we aren't practicing sin, we aren't lawless or transgressing the law...

I never said the law was broke into two parts, the Mosaic law and the Levitical law or ceremonial laws ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE....

Listen I DO NOT CARE what someone else's opinion is, in regards to this thing you propagate about weather the "L" is capitalized or not, meaning referring to another law... Show me in the bible and not some heretics opinion of it.... Sin is a transgression of the law, Paul says the law was given for the knowledge of said sin... This isn't hard...

Again Hebrews 5:9, I've articulated myself very clearly and provided scripture showing that believing is a form of obedience, and if we look at the Gospel of John which is the book that claims to have ALL the information to get you saved, says we must believe, and nothing about repentance.... I repeat, not one mention of repentance... this proves faith regardless of obeying the law, is the only obedience necessary, or John wouldnt be an adequate book to get you saved... I've show with scripture, and exegeted correctly that the passages in 1 John where it says if you love me keep my commandments doesn't mean we MUST do them for salvation, as Solomon is a CLEAR example of someone who was a serial fornicator and someone who completely fell away and worshipped Pagan Gods, yet was saved... Address this because it is a dissonance with what you are claiming...

So here is what I am saying, you can bring up Hebrews 5:9 and think it's opposing to my view point, the problem is I've showed it's not... So my view remains in harmony with scripture... You sir, have a contradiction that needs cleared up, and that is once again Solomon and many other examples I could provide... God is not the author of confusion friend, so clear up your contradiction or move on...

JW's never cease to amaze me, all that time in scripture and can't even have a paradigm that isn't at dissonance with itself... Smh....

As for what you proposed about Matthew 7

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

MY ANSWER RIGHTLY DIVIDED:

This is how you break a verse down, rightly divide, and let scripture define itself...

So these people cast out devil's IN HIS NAME, prophesized IN HIS NAME, and did many wonderful works IN HIS NAME...

No doubt they claim the name of Jesus...

But he says depart from me "I NEVER KNEW YOU" not to be confused with "I used to know you"...

You see some think they lost their salvation, but it is clear they didn't do the "WILL" of the Father....

In this instance we have to let scripture define scripture...

So what is the will of the Father???

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So we can see here that according to verse 39 he never knew them, they did not lose salvation, as the will of the father is that all that are given to Jesus he will lose NOTHING...

Also verse 40 says the will of the father in regards to salvation is that whoever believes WILL have everlasting life....

So even though these people did all these WONDERFUL WORKS in his name, they did not believe never being forgiven of their iniquities... They trusted in their works, and actually boasted before God in those works, and we can clearly see in Ephesians 2:8-9 is not of works...

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

a reply to: lux666

Are you promoting sinless perfectionism here??? I believe whoever is born of God doth not sin, but I am not promoting sinless perfectionism...

a reply to: ThyJudgeCometh

?


"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

Jesus didn't claimed to be without sin, even if others said he was God's son.

Jesus said diverse ways to be saved:

via faith "your faith has saved you"

other way to be saved is via god's gratia.

bible says other way, exemplar life: "and walked with God"

or by going to jesus, and do not do sin anymore.

or by praying.

a reply to: lux666

Friend Jesus was sinless...

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Also there is only one way to obtain eternal life and that's through faith in Jesus...

Now when you said one way, is to come to Jesus and "do not sin anymore". For one is impossible, and 2 that's sinless perfectionism, and ironically you provided the answer to your own contradiction when you said "if we say we have no sin, we deceiveth ourselves, and the truth is not in us, 1 John...

a reply to: ThyJudgeCometh

yes they are at the bottom of his post you will see AWAKE 2000 that is a JW Publication and organization.

a reply to: ThyJudgeCometh

You wrote to lux666... "Friend Jesus was sinless".

I want you to consider the following conjecture:

If any one dares to hear anything against God, as trusting in the Scriptures, let him first of all consider with me that if any one, as he pleases, form a dogma agreeable to himself, and then carefully search the Scriptures, he will be able to produce many testimonies from them in favour of the dogma that he has formed. How, then, can confidence be placed in them against God, when what every man wishes is found in them?

--Clementine Homilies

When you use "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." is that not reinforcing a dogma by denying "Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God".

Your faith boils down to believing in Jesus? But does believing in Jesus mean belief in scriptures or even christianity itself ... John 5:39 "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.".

"YE WILL NOT COME TO ME"

We exist in our mind (sin). Whereas Jesus exists in our hearts (love). If by the power of your faith, you can surrender your mind to your love, both eyes will become single through the grace of the Father. Aka Matthew 6:22 "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light".

The same message is shared by many religions. But because the ego of man rejects its own mortality, Has been hidden under layers of understanding.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

JW's reject the trinity. Its interesting that one of the smartest people to ever grace this planet also had the same view....

Sir Isaac Newton's Views on Religion

originally posted by: ThyJudgeCometh
a reply to: whereislogic

... Address this because it is a dissonance with what you are claiming...

I'm not going to keep responding to everything you bring up, it sounds like you don't wanna hear it anyway, so it all becomes a bit pointless.

I don't have as much patience as God anyway:

“Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar,* [Or “a rushing sound.”] but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.

11 Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion,” (2 Peter 3:9-11; NW)

Reproof (Insight on the Scriptures)

...
Although reproof can benefit those who receive it, the efforts of the reprover are not always appreciated. Thus Proverbs 9:7, 8 warns: “He that is correcting the ridiculer is taking to himself dishonor, and he that is giving a reproof to someone wicked​—a defect in him. Do not reprove a ridiculer, that he may not hate you. Give a reproof to a wise person and he will love you.”

Proper Attitude. Since the Scriptures are inspired of God, all reproof solidly based on them is really reproof from him. (2Ti 3:16) Jehovah’s reproof is an expression of love, not to be abhorred or rejected. (Pr 3:11, 12) ...

The sinful human tendency is to resent reproof and the human servant through whom it may be given. But yielding to this tendency degrades one to the level of an unreasoning beast lacking moral discrimination; as the inspired proverb expresses it: “A hater of reproof is unreasoning.” (Pr 12:1) In contrast, the psalmist David, who was himself repeatedly reproved, wrote: “Should the righteous one strike me, it would be a loving-kindness; and should he reprove me, it would be oil upon the head, which my head would not want to refuse.”​—Ps 141:5.

originally posted by: whereislogic
...
So no, "NT authors are" not "always referring to the Mosaic law" (quoting you) when they use words like "law" or "lawlessness".

If we can't even see eye to eye on the little things...

“The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much.” (Jesus at Luke 16:10)

2 Timothy 3:1-8:

But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

8 Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith.

a reply to: whereislogic

There's all your plug and play scriptures, even Mormons and Catholics will use it against you, if you are unable to respond to my points of contention just be honest about it, no need to resort to something any cult would say...

The reason everyone disagrees with JW's on everything is because quite frankly, y'all just wrong, and the fact you are unable to respond to my points of contention is glaring...

But honestly I'm surprised you lasted in a debate this long, being my wife is a former JW, debate seems to be frowned upon in your cult... Do you know why??? It's a form of control...

a reply to: glend

I'm unsure as to exactly what you question is, but I will assume you don't think Jesus is God?

a reply to: whereislogic

Also the fact that you have to copy and paste everything is proof that you only believe what the watch tower tells you to believe... And here I am just some guy exposing all the contradictions they propagate...

a reply to: ThyJudgeCometh

I dont think there is an absolute truth in believing that Jesus is God or not. It really depends on our viewpoint. If God is the alpha and omega. Not only does that include all time. It includes space as well. All which has existed, all that will exist, is God. So Jesus stating that he is the alpha and omega is merely reiterating that God is everything, That he (Jesus) is the vine of the tree that is God. To be born again as that vine means we all have to escape confinement of ego-mind that will not surrender its own mortaility without a fight. We all have to walk the desert to fight the satan that is our false self. The serpent that seduced Eve with desires.

a reply to: glend

Jesus said before Abraham was I AM...

This is Jesus without a doubt referring to himself as God, and as we see in the old testament that's what God himself said I AM... The Pharisees who were there when Jesus said this, recognized the implications of what Jesus had said, that's why they called him a blasphemer....

Also John 1:1 "In the beginning was the WORD, and the word was with God, and the word WAS GOD...

The word is Jesus...

As for the rest of what you said, it's best to use biblical language... We have to put of the old man which is of the flesh, and put on the new man which is the spirit...

But going back to the subject of the initial post, do we have to for salvation??? Absolutely not... That's works based salvation...

a reply to: ThyJudgeCometh

Jesus said before Abraham was I AM.

This is Jesus without a doubt referring to himself as God

What do you think "thou shalt not have any gods before me" means? In Genesis, It was God that created form. Perhaps the warning is not to encapsulate God back into form!

But going back to the subject of the initial post, do we have to for salvation??? Absolutely not... That's works based salvation...

I don't believe that works enhances our spirituality, I do believe that spirituality enhances our works.

a reply to: glend

Yeah you should have no other God's before him, that's idolatry, but no I'm not putting God into a box here just stating the obvious that Jesus is God, after all he is the creater. ...

John 1:3
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


And yes absolutely, if we deny ourselves and pick up our cross daily, and walk in accordance with the spirit, we will do good works. The purpose of the post is if that is necessary for salvation.

originally posted by: ThyJudgeCometh
a reply to: whereislogic

...if you are unable to respond to my points of contention just be honest about it, ...

...and the fact you are unable to respond to my points of contention is glaring...

I have honestly responded to most of what's in your commentary, you just ignore where the Bible says something that contradicts your theological argumentation and convenient misinterpretations to avoid having to acknowledge what the Bible actually says about the subject. Most of your initial argumentation was centered around your misinterpretation of how the word "law" is used in the Bible, you do not want to admit or see that and talk over it as you present your next misinterpretation concerning Solomon (who did not repent from his Pagan ways and turn back to God, so how is he saved?), but it's just distracting to start a debate about that if we can't even agree on how the word "law" is used in the Bible in different ways (depending on context) and then rendered accordingly (in some bible translations).

So I am not unable to respond, I've explained why there's little point in responding to every little thing you bring up having to address another misinterpretation that you will never change your view about anyway, cause you're using it to hold on to the theological doctrines you have been taught by your Church or religious education coming out of Christendom. So you don't have to (or want to) talk about how the word "law" is really used in the Bible or admit that 1 John 3:4 isn't talking about the Mosaic Law (the misinterpretation on which your initial question and argumentation about it was based; talking about the question that you changed later, conflating 2 different expressions or notions as per your preferred theology and theosophy*).

*:

originally posted by: ThyJudgeCometh

So I asked you if you had to repent of sin to be saved, and you replied "If you are referring to the Mosaic Law? Then no...

originally posted by: whereislogic

No, you asked: "Do you believe we have to obey the law for salvation???" (in the comment I was responding to there)

Odd that you wouldn't remember your own question.

And since you more or less admitted now that in your original question you were referring to the Mosaic Law with the word "law", I'd like to point out that 'obeying the Mosaic Law' is not the same thing as 'repenting of sin'. It would have been already odd if you didn't remember your own question, but it's even more odd to think you can just change the question like that as if there's no difference, as if it's still the same question.

I responded to both questions differently by the way, and treated the questions differently, cause they are different questions after all. Both answered by Scripture. But we do have to agree what it is you're actually asking me, and that it's not the same question phrased differently and that they both have different answers. In short, concerning the Mosaic Law it's "no", concerning the topic of repenting because of sin*, it's "yes" (but that's only part of reconciling to God as explained before, a prerequisite). *: as explained before: "The cause making repentance necessary is sin, failure to meet God’s righteous requirements. (1Jo 5:17)"

Human Repentance for Sins. The cause making repentance necessary is sin, failure to meet God’s righteous requirements. (1Jo 5:17) Since all mankind was sold into sin by Adam, all of his descendants have had need of repentance. (Ps 51:5; Ro 3:23; 5:12) As shown in the article RECONCILIATION, repentance (followed by conversion) is a prerequisite for man’s being reconciled to God.
...
..., repentance is a primary and essential step toward being brought into a right standing before God, with life everlasting in view.​—Ac 11:18; 17:30; 20:21.

Or in other words "everlasting salvation" (Heb 5:9; which also tells us that “[Jesus] became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him.” It doesn't say "all those believing in him", which is how you conveniently interpreted it by claiming that believing in Jesus is the same thing as obeying him, replacing it with your theology, not what it actually says there; now if you want to talk about how the Greek verb rendered "believe" in your preferred Bible translation and rendered "excercise faith" in the NW is related to the topic of obedience to Jesus' or God's commands as given through his servant, Jesus, that's another topic and a little less relevant to Heb 5:9 since that word isn't used there, there we find the Greek verb for 'to obey' being used, which relates to the other texts I quoted concerning the subject of 'observing God's commandments').

originally posted by: whereislogic

... Nonetheless, the Christian Greek Scriptures are full of laws, commands, and decrees that the Christian is bound to observe.​—Re 14:12; 1Jo 5:2, 3; 4:21; 3:22-24; 2Jo 4-6; Joh 13:34, 35; 14:15; 15:14.

“If you love me, you will observe my commandments. (Jesus speaking)

You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you. (still Jesus)

Those were the last 2 in that list (John 14:15; 15:14).

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 3 For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome, (1Jo 5:2,3)

and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we are observing his commandments and doing what is pleasing in his eyes. 23 Indeed, this is his commandment: that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he gave us a commandment. 24 Moreover, the one who observes his commandments remains in union with him, and he in union with such one. And by the spirit that he gave us, we know that he remains in union with us. (1Jo 3:22-24)

The phrase about “doing what is pleasing in his eyes” brings us back again to the “holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion”, spoken of at 2 Peter 3:9-11 (NW). And...

... what Jesus says at Matthew 7:21-27:

“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’ [remember that "the stated will of God becomes law to his creatures.​"]
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

a reply to: whereislogic

"I have honestly responded to most of what's in your commentary, you just ignore where the Bible says something that contradicts your theological argumentation and convenient misinterpretations to avoid having to acknowledge what the Bible actually says about the subject."

No sir, I've showed especially with passages in regards to Hebrews 5:9 that my view is still at harmony with scripture, and that the contradictions on your end need to be cleared up...

"Most of your initial argumentation was centered around your misinterpretation of how the word "law" is used in the Bible,"

Ive asked many times for you to show me with scripture, and not just copy and paste some watchtowers members view on it like some meme complex propagator...

Here is what I'm asking for, show me how the bible says which "law" is to be viewed per it's capitalization, and not someone's weird opinion of it... Just saying that's what it is, is just a proposition, SHOW ME??? Don't just tell me...

Heres an example of what I'm talking about when I say show me...

You said that that we have to be a commandment keeper to be saved, I then showed with scripture that Jesus commands are revolved around the entire mosaic law... Therefore how was Solomon saved as he fell away and worshipped Pagan gods, considering that is disobeying the very first command of Jesus???

And your answer to me is that I'm misrepresenting what laws are talked about???

Are you serious, it's Jesus' first commandment, that Solomon did not obey... Forget the whatever law yada yada, you would at least admit he is a transgressor of the first and greatest commandment...

So now we can see that regardless on our disagreement of "law" your contradiction that needs cleared up is of Jesus' commandments to love God with all your heart...

"you do not want to admit or see that and talk over it as you present your next misinterpretation concerning Solomon (who did not repent from his Pagan ways and turn back to God, so how is he saved?), but it's just distracting to start a debate about that if we can't even agree on how the word "law" is used in the Bible in different ways (depending on context) and then rendered accordingly (in some bible translations)."

It's a commandment, your refutation is now erroneous... Clear up your contradiction???

"So I am not unable to respond, I've explained why there's little point in responding to every little thing you bring up having to address another misinterpretation that you will never change your view about anyway,"

Once again it's a commandment, this isnt a little issue, it's at complete dissonance with what you propagate, but if you can show me Solomon wasn't saved for worshipping pagan gods, then I would absolutely change my view...

"cause you're using it to hold on to the theological doctrines you have been taught by your Church or religious education coming out of Christendom."

That is really funny coming from a guy who can only copy and paste things from the watchtower website... And my church didn't teach me this, I am actually unsure what they feel in regards to Solomon, I have a mind of my own.... You should try using yours and stop giving away your own sense making to some elder...

"So you don't have to (or want to) talk about how the word "law" is really used in the Bible"

SHOW ME, don't just tell me that it is used different... There are many different laws, but SHOW ME that we are dealing with different laws in the NT based on capitalization, and no just making the claim it does WILL NOT WORK....

"or admit that 1 John 3:4 isn't talking about the Mosaic Law (the misinterpretation on which your initial question and argumentation about it was based; talking about the question that you changed later, conflating 2 different expressions or notions as per your preferred theology and theosophy)."

Admit what exactly??? You haven't even begun to articulate what law 1 John is referring to???

Once again just making the claim that 1 John isn't referring to the Law of Moses WILL... NOT... WORK... Show me, just like I showed you WITH SCRIPTURE that Solomon is at dissonance with your view point about having to be a commandment keeper to be saved... As he didn't even keep the very first and most important commandment and was still saved...

This goes beyond my theological view points, this is scripture, black white ink on paper....

"And since you more or less admitted now that in your original question you were referring to the Mosaic Law with the word "law", I'd like to point out that 'obeying the Mosaic Law' is not the same thing as 'repenting of sin'. It would have been already odd if you didn't remember your own question, but it's even more odd to think you can just change the question like that as if there's no difference, as if it's still the same question."

"I responded to both questions differently by the way, and treated the questions differently, cause they are different questions after all. Both answered by Scripture. But we do have to agree what it is you're actually asking me, and that it's not the same question phrased differently and that they both have different answers. In short, concerning the Mosaic Law it's "no", concerning the topic of repenting because of sin*, it's "yes" (but that's only part of reconciling to God as explained before, a prerequisite). *: as explained before: "The cause making repentance necessary is sin, failure to meet God's righteous requirements. (1Jo 5:17)"

God's righteous standard is the Moral law lol, and sin is the transgression of it... Sin is not meeting God's righteous(moral) standard...

Wow dude seriously, the law of Moses is what we are all condemned under...

Fornication is a sin under the Mosaic law, adultery is a sin under the Mosaic law, lying is a sin under the Mosaic law, not the fact that I e been circumcised or not, is not under the Mosaic law, that is the Levitical law... That was for Israel, I am not condemned under that not immoral thing or an unrighteous thing if I wasn't circumcised, I would not be condemned for that... This is real common knowledge and the fact that it alludes you is appalling really...

So no you have not answered my question, since the sin that condemns us, that missed the mark of the righteous(moral) standard of God, is of the Mosaic law... Therefore to repent of sin is to obey the law for salvation...

"Or in other words "everlasting salvation" (Heb 5:9; which also tells us that "[Jesus] became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him." It doesn't say "all those believing in him", which is how you conveniently interpreted it by claiming that believing in Jesus is the same thing as obeying him,"

And you view of Hebrews 5:9 adds this "became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obey him in commandment keeping"

Not what that says either, the difference between what you are propagating and what I am, is that I've showed WITH SCRIPTURE that believing is obedience therefore my view is till intact... You again need to clear your contradiction... Try again...

"replacing it with your theology, not what it actually says there;"

There is this thing call "rightly dividing the word of truth" and the fact I've showed with a scripture my view is at harmony is really all I need...

As far as Matthew 7:21-27 those people who had all those WONDERFUL WORKS weren't even saved...

The ROCK that I built my house on is Jesus

a reply to: whereislogic

The foolish thing Jesus is talking about is trying to build your house on all your wonderful works of commandment keeping... He will say "depart from me"

And we know it's not of works clearly, so is turning from our evil ways(commandment keeping) considered a work in scripture???

Yes

Jonah 3:10
And God saw their WORKS that they turned from their evil ways...

a reply to: whereislogic

Here is how clear it is, bearing false witness(lying) is against God's commandments, and is part of the law of Moses that we should not lie....

If I told you that you needed to repent of lying, I am literally telling you to stop lying, or obey the law, or God's commandment on it... You are immoral, you are unrighteous, you are condemned for that lie...

a reply to: glend

he was of average intelligence.