Australia won't rule out replacing Italian troops quitting Iraq

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
Oh...Berlusconi must have sh*t his pants when Bushy wouldn't take his explanatory phone call. God forbid he suffer the wrath of the Bushy cold shoulder treatment..

Well I have to laugh, but I bet more was involved. But in reality it is right and he said so, you are either with us or not. The war was started during the Clinton years and he had his head in the sand, only the last 2 years did he start to see the 'significance' of what was at stake. You Bush haters had better realize something and the sooner you do the better off you will be.

If Gore had been in office, we would still be in a war......911 would still have happened. Iraq might not be invaded but the war would have taken on more deadly attacks against civilians.

The war is now in their court and they are loosing.......and whether you believe it or not they are loosing badly.

When we sign these treaties, that we will defend your countries with American blood, doesn't that work both ways?

Your hate had blinded you, and the tulip-walkers will never see this, they never have since Woodrow Wilson.

Originally posted by Warpspeed
This is all being done to prevent the CIA from killing more Australian civilians. The Americans I know living here in Australia are all fine people, but American foreign policy is really starting to get up the noses of most Australians. Please try to understand this, It is not a hate America campaign. I am just trying to express what I and the majority of Australians think of Bush and his phony dishonest illegal war.

Oh how I hate ignorance, you actually believe the CIA did that? It' s a conspiracy board and all but damn that is just ludicrous. Sad part is that type of lie is told and retold and people start to believe it.






EDIT

Of the 4 Aussies I know, and talk to regularly, in my age group 25-40, 3 of them are for the war, they don't like it, but they understand WHY it must be fought and fought now and not in 20 years.

[edit on 18-3-2005 by edsinger]

3 Aussies huh Ed? Oh well, we all MUST be for the war then. Forget that we actually live here. This is something you just cannot argue without looking stupid. Oh gee, what do you think the chances are of there being 3 Australians in the USA right now who are pro Iraq War? I'd say there would be more than 3...don't you? We have religious zealots, racist nationalists and culture driven consumers here to.

Rather than try and argue that Australians are for this war with your "3 Aussies" proof, why don't you actually come here to find out what those who walk the streets in Australia think?.

Originally posted by AlwaysLearning

Originally posted by cargo

I have not met one person here since the Iraq war began that supports it. Not one, and that is no exaggeration. This might sound harsh, but Australians generally respond to your thankyou with "You're not welcome". *shrugs*

Help me to understand, Cargo...if Australian support is SO very unpopular, before, during and since, how is it that John Howard got re-elected? With a majority, no less? Do they use the same voting machines in Austrialia that they use in the U.S.? Heheheheheh...

As a comparison, in Canada the Liberals lost their majority government over a spending scandale to do with the last Quebec referendum on separation....

Why don't you open up google and do a simple search about it? Howard has done some pretty good things with Australia's economy. Australians voted with their financial future in mind, but ultimately got screwed over a few aspects of that by Howard and Costello regardless.

Howard went to the election with an untestable thesis that the Coalition would keep rates lower than the ALP. It was a brutally effective political line which leaves the Coalition vulnerable to rate rises.

Householders, you'd think, will cop one small rise in their mortgage payments. Only a fool doesn't understand rates rise as well as fall. Tuesday's 0.25 per cent hike has been anticipated for several months.

But another interest rate rise so soon after the election could be politically devastating. Little wonder Howard and Costello have spent the week unsubtly advising the Reserve Bank of the reasons rates should rise no higher.

Do you honestly believe I would get on here and bother stating how unpopular the Iraq war is with Australians if it wasn't true? Look at the damn links I provided. Major publications all reporting that the PM admits that the majority of Australians are against this decision. I don't have to justify that.

Look 75% of the Aussies I know are for it while only 50% of the Kiwi's are 1/2. It is like here, just the tulip-walkers are out protesting, while the 'quiet' and 'meek' go to their jobs and move on.....I said nothing of the type that ALL 75% of Australians are for the war, I just said that the 75% I KNOW are, then again, these m8's have jobs.

You are in denial Ed. Polish those blinkers. It seems that even the Prime Minister himself getting on Brisbane radio and admitting that the Australian public don't support this can't convince you. You just desperately do not want to acknowledge that the citizens of one of your closest allied countries are not with you on this.

Now you start this crap about those who protest were "tulip walkers" and "dont have jobs". Again, you are not here, were not there and don't know. The desperation in your "logic" is astounding, not to mention insulting. For someone who is so proud of being associated with Australians, you sure as hell don't know anything about us.




[edit on 19-3-2005 by cargo]

Warpspeed, you nearly hit the dot!
Very good post, and alot fo what you said is the abosolute truth, except im iffy on the cia bombings, if there is any proof at all i will be a much bigger believer.
Anyway as my juty as a citizen i will say that 90% of the people i have asked in my country about the war disagree with it. The 10% are just warmongers, theh know the gain that will come for this. Its a whole big oil plot, australia just throw its 2 cents in for this war to gain cheaper oil in the long run. Howard doesnt want war, his thinking about the best of his country. The people dont know whats best in the long term, people jsut think about their own lifes. Anyway i disagree with the war 100% as it is purely illegal and dishonest, and the amount of innocent people who have died is outrages. But then the selfish inner me thinks...in 20 years time i wanna be buying cheaper petrol....lol

I'm ignoring the oil aspect for a while when specifically talking of Australia and it's motives for being involved in the Iraq War. I tend to see the major reasoning being that it is an insurance policy to ensure that we got more say in the Aust-US free trade agreement and to cement a defence pact in the event that Australia has to defend itself via the ANZUS treaty.

With that said, after educating myself over the years on situations where the US has left those it claimed it would back up once they initiated a rebellion high and dry, I'm not sure I can trust the US gov to carry through on it's promises. Nor can I trust that any US citizen can do a damn thing about forcing it's gov to act under any circumstances, no matter how much they protest (because I know plenty of US civilians and some US Mil personnel who would be outraged if their gov did not act on our behalf under such circumstances, but that their cries to do something would get them nowhere).

In the end, personal responsibility lies with the individual sovreign nation. And we should think and act as if we are on our own. Anything else that comes along should be considered a bonus, but not be planned for.




[edit on 19-3-2005 by cargo]

Well obviously I do not have proof that would get anyone convicted, but please consider these facts.

Australians were holding massive anti war rallies at that time in every Australian capital city, large peaceful groups of tens of thousands of people. Now if you were an Islamic terrorist group watching all of that, would you not be pleased that Australians could see that there were two sides to this war ? Why would they then risk alienating Australians by planting that bomb ? It is just totally illogical.

On the other hand, the American administration were furious about those anti American demonstrations, and particularly THE AMERICAN FLAG BURNINGS. What better way to teach Australians a lesson than to plant a bomb, and try to blame it on fictional "terrorists". And that warning by Bush "you are either with us or against us. That sounded like a threat of reprisal to most of us here. You do not threaten your friends.

Nobody has ever claimed responsibility for that blast. Another sure sign of American complicity in my book. Terror is to threaten and then carry out those threats if demands are not met. It always works that way. Bush made the threat and carried it out on Australian civilians.

Anyone with half a brain can see exactly what happened, why it happened, the motive behind it, and who was responsible. As I said it was "our" 9/11. Your 9/11 happened for exactly the same reason. To gain massive public support for what was at first a none too popular war.

I have heard that maybe half of America now believes the Bush Administration either caused 9/11 or allowed it to happen. The other half just does not want to believe that something so awful could even be possible. But wishing it were not true, does not make it so.

I do not pretend to know the mind or the mood of the bulk of Americans just because I know a couple that now live in Australia. It would be wrong to assume that a small number of Australians in America accurately reflect the views held by most Australians in Australia.

All of this is most unfortunate, but America is rapidly losing friends around the world over these wars. The day will come when America will stand alone against the whole world. There is no way to know the outcome, but it will probably all end very badly.

In response to the issues raised by Cargo, the problem is that after WW2 when we realized that England couldn't and wouldn't come to our aid in a time of war. They were busy with Europe and we suddenly found the Japanese on our doorstep. And we STILL sent troops over to fight with them in Europe and North Africa, and to catch bullets for them at Gallipoli.

The realization that having a big brother (no Orwellian tone intended) as protector wasn't a guarantee of security presented us with two choices. a) Find a bigger brother to look after us, or b) Develop our own miltary strength and maybe even research the ultimate deterrant. We chose a) and we have been nervously watching U.S foreign policy ever since. Ironically, we've let the UK and US test their bombs in our own back yard, all the while smiling and nodding as the payground toughies flex their muscles and say they'll protect us.

The big issue now is Taiwan, and whether or not the ANZUS treaty obliges us to a military commitment if the US and China engage over Taiwan. Howard and Downer have been constantly contradicting each other over the issue.

Excerpts from the ANZUS Treaty

Article I

The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international disputes in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.

Article IV

Each Party recognizes that an armed attack in the Pacific Area on any of the Parties would be dangerous to its own peace and safety and declares that it would act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional processes.

Article IV

For the purpose of Article IV, an armed attack on any of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack on the metropolitan territory of any of the Parties, or on the island territories under its jurisdiction in the Pacific or on its armed forces, public vessels or aircraft in the Pacific.

END OF EXCERPT

IMO, article 1 has already been breached by the Bush administration with the Iraq invasion. This may seem like an irrelevant issue, but defense treaties like this are undertaken with the assumption that signatories will not start running around causing trouble and putting their allies in an awkward position.

In my humble assessment, Articles 4 and 5 lay out fairly clearly that if China attacked any US forces that were defending Taiwan, Australia would be obliged to offer military assistance.

The entire ANZUS treaty text can be found here.

[edit on 2005/3/19 by wecomeinpeace]

Of the 4 guys that I know from Australia, and NOTE: They are still there ok? Of these 4, they come from differing political mindsets and 3 of the 4 are for the war.

Take it or leave it I don't give a ship!, It is not a big sample but one that I personally know.


Now as for the CIA causing the blast, this is a perfect example of tulip-walkery in motion.

Try as you may, you will not get intelligent people to believe this no matter how hard you try. Just as the igmo who claims that the Japanese didn't attack Pearl harbor.........(bad example but it makes the point)

Problem is your polls and in this place especially in ATS are probably the younger generation, those that don't remember the last 20+ years of life. This is a very similar thing to Iran, all of them are to young to remember.


Your war haters, hell I hate war, but at time it is necessary and you must, this folks is one of those times. Whether it was Iraq in 2003 or Iran in 2006, it was coming. So get off you r mightier than now elitists attitudes and wake up and be think that your country and its allies are smart enough to see thorough the tulip-walkers smokescreens.

The fact remains though, that one country after another is now abandoning America in Iraq. This time it is Italy. Who will be next ?

There never were any weapons of mass destruction, and the reasons given for going to war were a complete lie. If ordinary Americans still feel justified, fair enough. There is now a well publicized mass exodus from the CIA and other US intelligence agencies over all this. Maybe they have it all wrong too. If anyone really knows what is going on it will be the spooks.

The shame and scandal of all this torture has not left a very good impression on America's conduct in the war. Most thinking Australians now want no part of it.

America is headed down the road to ruin. If that is what you want, then go for it.

Originally posted by Warpspeed
The fact remains though, that one country after another is now abandoning America in Iraq. This time it is Italy. Who will be next ?

America is headed down the road to ruin. If that is what you want, then go for it.

Well I guess you all can go now then, hell the USSR is no longer a threat....you don't need uncle Sam covering your back now do you?

We are not headed on the road to ruin, we are in the beginnings of a major change in humanity. The 21st Century will be amazing to say the least.

And just so you know....just keep in mind who is leading the pack. Sad part is I wish the American people were more like elephants so they wont forget, but alas, they are the most generous on the planet and will stay that way.

So enjoy the Anti-American bashing while you can.....it will not last. Just make sure to remember to tell your grandchildren what you once stood for ok?

I was in Australia for about 12 months last year and couldn't believe how seriously some people were taking "The War Against Terror."
I remember former Prime Minister Paul Keating's wire-tapped phone call where he spoke about how insignificant the country was - "the arse end of the world" etc...
He really hit the nail on the head, Australia really doesn't matter at all in the world scene, but you have a big chunk of the population who want to believe it does and these seemed to be the ones who support the War in Iraq so rampantly.

The Australian troop presence there has always only been token although there was one assault where the Aussie SAS (that's like the top 100 troops in the country) coordinated with a US Ranger battalion to make it look like they were right in the front line for the camera's.

It’s all been a big greasy suck up job to unload some Beef, Wine and other agricultural exports to the US (who really don’t need them anyway) to offset the MASSIVE foreign debt that Australia has with them for really useful stuff like Britney Spears CDs.

By the way the australian SAS are called the most versatile special forces in the world. There kill rating was 650 to 1 in the vietnam war....so dont rag the SAS.
Australia is insignificant in the world and yes we are the arse end of the world. But we are the most friendly country to the US in the asian region which makes us a very important ally.
All australians who surport the war on "terror" is jsut as brainwashed as any other american citizen.

Originally posted by wang
By the way the australian SAS are called the most versatile special forces in the world.

Not in Hereford they're not! While SASR are very good they're certainly not the most versatile - 22SAS are, without doubt, the most versatile force in the World.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

We Aussies, like many Americans, don't want a bar of it, but we are powerless to stop the actions of our government.

When the leaders of UK, Span agreed to the war during the conference on Lanzerote they were lauded by the US for their LEADERSHIP.... while IGNORING the will of the MAJORITY of their people.

See how that works in americanese? leadership =ldoing what the hell you like... and evil is spelled kissinger.