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Why Historically Known cultures hid information about the Ice Age

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posted on Aug, 24 2020 @ 11:24 PM
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a reply to: Phage

I wouldnt say that their is this. abcnews.go.com...




posted on Aug, 24 2020 @ 11:26 PM
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a reply to: anonentity

Your source?

Ballard said he believes they have established a timeline for that catastrophic event, which he estimates happened around 5,000 BC.



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 12:54 AM
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a reply to: anonentity

The murky issue of dating that "flood".

From: Video from Science View NHK Japan


Carbon-14 is well known for its use in measuring the ages of very old things. But it's now being used in some surprising fields of research. And its improved accuracy is rewriting history. It found a 10-thousand year mistake in the dating of an Antarctic ice shelf collapse. In lakebed sediments, it shed new light on the history of Mount Fuji's eruptions. In marine biology, it can be used to trace whale movements, and more! We'll look at some of these exciting new applications.


So if the claim of 5000BCE was the time frame for a "flood", then you're going to not only have people with stories that talk about that event without the discussion of a Christian God, or your going to need to have some evidence to back it up. As pointed out in the linked video there is a C-14 error that has happened with some of the dated timelines, so other methods or going to be needed.

Here's a point to think about with that "flood" that might make it nothing more then an exaggeration of a large scale event that occurred during the human timeline.
From: The WIKI

The Würm glaciation (German: Würm-Kaltzeit or Würm-Glazial or Würm stage, colloquially often also Würmeiszeit or Würmzeit; c.f. ice age), in the literature usually just referred to as the Würm, often spelt "Wurm", was the last glacial period in the Alpine region. It is the youngest of the major glaciations of the region that extended beyond the Alps themselves. It is, like most of the other ice ages of the Pleistocene epoch, named after a river, the Würm in Bavaria, a tributary of the Amper. The Würm ice age can be dated to the time about 115,000 to 11,700 years ago, the sources differing depending on whether the long transition phases between the glacials and interglacials (warmer periods) are allocated to one or other of these periods. The average annual temperatures during the Würm ice age in the Alpine Foreland were below −3 °C (today +7 °C). This has been determined from changes in the vegetation (pollen analysis) as well as differences in the facies.

At the end of that period of time, the Alpine Glacial shelf collapsed. If there was a glacial lake behind the shelf, then it's not outside of thought that people would have died, and those that survived would have told stories about a massive wall of water that came from the mountains. Over time it may have been miss-repeated as the water came from the sky, then later on some kind of deity used the water to punish people. After generations of retelling to story it could have been changed to rain since people at the time would not have understood that a massive lake once existed up it the Alps.

The point being that these event as I speculated on above would have happened around 11000BCE and not the 5000BCE. As I pointed out earlier in this thread 5500BCE people were settling along the Nile River. On would think that if this mystery event took place 500 years after people were living near the area, there would have been stories about it. Do you have any stories of an Egyptian Flood?



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 01:15 AM
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a reply to: Guyfriday

Wasnt their some concern about a tide mark on the GP, along with heavy salt deposits on the internal wall? Anything that shakes the paragdim usualy gets ignored for orthodoxy.Didnt the Egyptions just pop up from nowhere, mabey they suffered a disruption and had to repopulate the Nile delta.Mabey the Earth goes through regular climatic disruptions, all very cyclical.Who really knows, but the Myceans had some pretty nice architecture, internal plumbing, all based on having the time, with plenty of food giving that time.Then all of a sudden it was gone.



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 01:17 AM
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a reply to: anonentity




.Didnt the Egyptions just pop up from nowhere
No, they didn't.


Then all of a sudden it was gone.
The evidence is not. Ironic, isn't it?


edit on 8/25/2020 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 01:20 AM
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a reply to: Phage

How do you know? Carbon dating is being discredited, acording to the previous poster, and most of the timelines are based on it.



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 01:24 AM
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a reply to: anonentity




Carbon dating is being discredited,
Not really, no. While the margin of error increases with age (always has been the case), the method is by no means being discredited.

But didn't you say this?

not acording to mollusc carbon dating.


Getting wishy-washy in the face of facts, are you? So where did that 1,500 BC (end of ice age?) number actually come from? Not from molluscs? Did you make it up? Like Tut's blade being steel?

edit on 8/25/2020 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 01:46 AM
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originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Guyfriday

Wasnt their some concern about a tide mark on the GP, along with heavy salt deposits on the internal wall? Anything that shakes the paragdim usualy gets ignored for orthodoxy.Didnt the Egyptions just pop up from nowhere, mabey they suffered a disruption and had to repopulate the Nile delta.Mabey the Earth goes through regular climatic disruptions, all very cyclical.Who really knows, but the Myceans had some pretty nice architecture, internal plumbing, all based on having the time, with plenty of food giving that time.Then all of a sudden it was gone.



The concern about the salt showing up inside the Great Pyramid had to do with the number of sweaty tourists that visited the place. It was one of the many reasons that it got shut down to people visiting it without special permission.

Most ideas that shake the paradigm get ignored because of the lack of evidence to back up the claim. When there is enough evidence to support the claim, then the new idea does get further discussion. I will say that I know that certain groups that fund certain types of research will try and hide anything that does not fit within their ideas, but that is rare when it comes to archeology.

I already showed that people started populating the Nile River area around 5500BCE. That's 2000 years before the first Dynastic Period. That's not a "pop up from nowhere" moment in time.

Nothing the Earth does is regular, if it was we would know when a volcano is going to go off, or when an Earth quake is going to happen. The best we can do is gage the ramping up to these events and plan accordingly, but even then we've had more misses than hits.

The Mycenae had the foresight to use water to flush out waste. Don't think that it's the same as the system we use, it was a primitive system, but it was a bit better than the Roman system.




originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Phage

How do you know? Carbon dating is being discredited, acording to the previous poster, and most of the timelines are based on it.



C-14 dating hasn't been discredited, it just need better review. As Phage has pointed out, there is a margin of error with it that needs to be taken in to account when using it. It's like ground penetrating radar, it can give you an idea that something is down there, but until you have more data, it can't be solely relied upon.



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 01:52 AM
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a reply to: Phage

Wishy washy in the face of facts?, their are no facts all suppositions based on someones opinion, with a probability of one being near the truth.



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 01:53 AM
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a reply to: anonentity

So that "end of the ice age, 1500 BC" was just your opinion.

Sort of like Tut's blade being made of steel.


Some people might think they might have reason to reassess their opinions from time to time.


edit on 8/25/2020 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 11:38 AM
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Right let's put the fact of why they hide information, sit on inconvenient discovery's or just plain deliberately ignore than and hope they will go away or at some point they can find a convenient method to destroy them such as the sunken city off of Cuba, why they push political agendas over the truth etc.

Most of the established hierarchy in our academia is actually conformist, oh it may begin with good intent's but pretty soon finding that the only way up certain ladders is through who you know and more often than not becoming members of one sect or another such as a branch of the freemasons is just the way it is.

Information is power, if you have information and control it then it is power.

Today we have Freemasons that claim extremely wrongly, even blasphemously that they are descended from the Knight's Templar when in fact they are not, the Knight's Templar were of course a secretive CHRISTIAN sect of Warrior Monk's sworn to celibacy and given autonomy from the Church by a papal decree.
They lived an austere life with Monk's cell's and a simply got and cross on the wall and when they were not praying they were training or guarding religious sites even after the loss of the holy land to Saladin.
The Templars had a simple anagram which has been found on church wall's as far away as the rock cut church's of Ethiopia showing that they had visited and left there mark there.

SATOR
AREPO
TENET
OPERA
ROTAS

Remember the T was pronounced D and DENED which is the central cross of the Anagram mean's "It is HELD", there are conflicting modern interpretations but it was a Latin Word and it roughly translates as it is held.

(it also break's down into the following word's Patre Nostre or Padre Nostre - holy father with the letters A and O left over or Alpha and Omega).

It also appears in unwritten form a find I made as a child in the soil of my own back garden was a variant upon this and was a buckle made of solid silver blackened by age, it had the four point's of the cross and in the centre a right forearm and hand reached into the centre of the buckle holding a sheaf of wheat in a clenched fist, so it of course mean's something to me.

The Templars fall from Grace was because the King of France was bankrupt and he coveted there - GOD'S - Treasury so with the aid of his puppet pope also a young man and also corrupt they set up the templars and had them arrested on trumped up charges, a false confession was written by an unknown person and signed Jacques De'Molet though the Last Grand Master and High Priest (Bishop but independent of Rome's Control) or the Templars whom was a God Fearing and devout Christian did not sign it since it was signed in a fluid hand and he had been extensively tortured including the use of thumb screw's which would have prohibited him even being able to hold a quill let alone sign such a damning and lying confession.

Among other false claim's of the confession were claim's the Templars had worshipped an idol called Baphomet which they had not.

As Molet and was burning at the stake he proclaimed that within the year God willing he would drag the evil king and the corrupt pope before God's throne for Judgement, both men were dead within the year, one choking in a bone and the other an expert rider falling from his horse.

But the Templars remained accused and falsely condemned, without a grand master they could not induct any new brothers and all of there monastery's, castles and holdings' had been stolen by the corrupt decree.

Worse still there brother Knight's such as the Knight's of St John actively hunted any surviving members down.

Non Survived though there is a mysterious tower in New England that some claim was built to a Templar Design.

They had no link to Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland and the only Templar to have ever been given permission to be free from his oath to have children and leave the order by both the Grand Master of the order and an earlier Pope was the heir to the throne of Portugal, his descendants are the only confirmed descendants of a Templar Knight though since his oath was released he was no longer a Templar so even there claim would be wrong.

The Mason's abused there legacy long after they had vanished from this world but not from God's Service, Masonic cult's also blaspheme Christ Routinely using such lies as the Grand Architect of the Universe and Lucifer claiming that Christ is actually his own enemy Lucifer.

They are simply wrong yet many members of our Archaeological fraternity's etc are members if good standing among these cult's, information is power, power and politics go hand in hand be that at national, career or even local level.

The truth is always a martyr to they whom seek control.

edit on 25-8-2020 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2020 @ 11:52 PM
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originally posted by: LABTECH767
Right let's put the fact of why they hide information, sit on inconvenient discovery's or just plain deliberately ignore than and hope they will go away or at some point they can find a convenient method to destroy them such as the sunken city off of Cuba, why they push political agendas over the truth etc.


Who is 'they''? Why do THEY all work together, when did they form and why are things constantly changing about our understanding of the past if THEY are hiding everything? What would be an 'inconvenient' discovery?


Most of the established hierarchy in our academia is actually conformist, oh it may begin with good intent's but pretty soon finding that the only way up certain ladders is through who you know and more often than not becoming members of one sect or another such as a branch of the freemasons is just the way it is.


"hierarchy"? Really in the USA? Nope. If you think they have a hierarchy here can you name the head of this hierarchy? Where is its administrative base and why is it that after 45+ years of being associated with Archeology i don't know who 'THEY' are? LOL


Information is power, if you have information and control it then it is power.


Knowing there is not a sunken city off Cuba give one what power exactly?

Tell us exactly what power this mysterious head of the American Archaeology has? Maybe he/she called me but since i didn't know who he/she was I hung up thinking they were a telemarketer? LOL

Deleted all the Templar stuff



posted on Aug, 26 2020 @ 11:36 AM
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a reply to: Hanslune

First of all let's get this straightened out, most Mason's are decent folk's (this is not to say that I approve of Masonry or Rosicrucianism or any other similar sects), most mason's are part of only there local Lodges but as a devout Christian I am not of course one of them and renounced any similar but also very different oath I may have sworn under false impressions a long time ago (that was between me and God and at the time I believed the oath was laudable but Christs words released me*** and anything that was laudable I would hope that I would live up to with our without such an oath which being human we are far more likely to break than keep anyway).

I have nothing against the vast bulk of Masonry BUT within any group there are always other group's and when you found it on made up secrets well that fosters both an air of mystery (false mystery) and also when you mix it with occultism of any kind especially pagan or blasphemous mock resurrection then it is something that is not good and most CULT's follow these kind of indoctrinations.

The first free mason's as you may know or may deny began NOT in ancient Egypt or far off India or any other such lies but in a city in what is today part of Germany, they were Cathedral builders and FREE MEN part of the FREE MANS GUILD of the Master Stone Mason's that carved and shaped the great temples of Christendom and were laudable in there own way.

But at some point they gained the local Prince as there patron and this led to them becoming a FASHIONABLE organisation for the elite to join, soon they were circumvented and other secretive groups including corrupt neo pagans whom were fans of the elysian secrets among other often anti Christian inspired used them as a way of hiding there own groups in plain sight and also of inducting new members whom they would first get to join the spreading and now cult like masonic orders.

Among these corrupt group's were the so called Hellfire club whom have wrongly been called Pagan's but whom actually are said to have worshipped Satan back in the 1700's and 1800's as well as there offshoot's the modern Bullingdon Club (there straight descendant also known as the young Hellion's) of the UK and the Skull and Bones of the US and several other such group's around Europe.

Secrets even when they give NO power become a habit, keeping other's dumb also gives the keeper of the secrets control over knowledge and even if that knowledge is worthless it is a currency that can be bartered and used to manipulate those that are willing to jump through hoop's to get to it but even among the spin off and OTHER often darker and more ritualistic group's that used the Masonic Fraternity's as an umbrella of sorts (and have for century's) most members are merely there to gain social status since in life as the old adage goes it is not what you know but who you know, note the irony of that, not what you know when in fact it is exactly that what you know that matters in many such circumstances.

A man walk's into a bank to ask for a business loan and the man arranging the loan's knows him because they were both down at there local lodge the knight before having a drink, he of course gets the loan all that much easier and probably with a better rate of interest than the next customer to ask for a similar loan whom is not a member.

As for the mysterious head of the US archaeology, your guess is as good as mine since I believe the problem is not down to a single person but entrenched corrupt bias, fear of ridicule and any real science behind the study of the past having been long since circumvented by politics, ideology and entrenched bias as well as a notable fear of change to the established order of thing's that may pose a serious threat to certain bursary funded positions and make many so called experts appear to be moronic idiot's if the full truth was ever revealed, also there is the possibility that sitting on evidence of a former advanced civilization or many such may be in line with fear of the social and economic ramifications such a religion shaking, cultural stability threatening revelation could make though I do believe this which we also saw in the early UFO study's was a false premise since most people are not arsed about the past one whit but only want rather more sensibly to get through today and reach tomorrow.



***
33Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

edit on 26-8-2020 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2020 @ 06:42 PM
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originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Hanslune

As for the mysterious head of the US archaeology, your guess is as good as mine since I believe the problem is not down to a single person but entrenched corrupt bias,


You said there was hierarchy which implies an organization with an executive at the top. A person who is totally secret and unknown is powerless he/she cannot influence anyone as they are unknown.


fear of ridicule and any real science behind the study of the past having been long since circumvented by politics, ideology and entrenched bias as well as a notable fear of change to the established order of thing's that may pose a serious threat to certain bursary funded positions and make many so called experts appear to be moronic idiot's if the full truth was ever revealed, also there is the possibility that sitting on evidence of a former advanced civilization or many such may be in line with fear of the social and economic ramifications such a religion shaking, cultural stability threatening revelation could make though I do believe this which we also saw in the early UFO study's was a false premise since most people are not arsed about the past one whit but only want rather more sensibly to get through today and reach tomorrow.


Doesn't wash. Since 1820 in two hundreds years almost every known tenet of science has changed, archaeology as been completely revamped multiple times - so where is this 'control' ? Religions hold on science and reality had been torn away. We don't hold earlier scientists to be idiots for being wrong about almost everything - do you? I don't nor do I know anyone who did/does.

Gobekli Tepe, destruction of Biblical/Qu'ran myths, Hobbits, Denisovians, mating with Neanderthals and being about 300,000 years old didn't destroy the world so what is this earth shaking news that is? Explain how 'THEY' know there is an ancient advanced civilization?

I would point out that you believe YOU know the truth? So have you panicked, run for the hills or gone mad? Nope.

So you're saying tens of thousands of people 'know' the secret but are keeping it for x reason to keep 'y' organization happy which no one has heard of? Additional tens of millions 'know' the secrets too but don't do anything but post about them and communicate the ideas to others - they don't panic and shoot themselves

Sorry not plausible.




***
33Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is His footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.



posted on Aug, 26 2020 @ 07:24 PM
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a reply to: Hanslune

You may disagree with me but you know I have a good point even if you will attack it and claim it is not.

As for not washing, tell that to Paulina Zelitsky whom backed off her discovery (and some utter imbecile on another thread was claiming he knew her and stooping to outright lies to deny the discovery of the city), McIntire despite Hearts claim it is a very long standing story so if it was wrong then why the hell did it take so very - very - very long to come up with a refute to it.

And oh so many others that have broken rank's, take former NASA scientist whom people whom work at NASA today often claim never worked there such as Maurice Chatelain whom wrote (his own conclusion and theory) book's that were either later plagiarised or else inspired the likes of Von Daniken (the lest said about him the better the guy - Daniken- was caught out making stuff up apparently - something to do with platinum records in a cave but to be fair I have never read his book's so have no right to pass judgement upon Daniken except he is a cult figure to many).

Then there are other whistle-blowers that have been tarred and feathered and that is what it is at the end of the day - unless they are the daniken's of this world - whistle blowing.

I mean come on there are even other world's in our solar system and in the case of a nuclear physicist called Dr Brandburg went public with evidence that he could no longer deny to himself that nuclear explosions may have caused the death of a past civilization there.

He was challenged by two people criticizing him so he asked them to debate with him and neither had the gut's to face him in a public debate because he is a REAL scientist not a back seat driver and critique.

Is it such a long stretch that if someone had technology when this happened then just maybe they also visited or even lived on earth and perhaps even a past cooler Venus, perhaps our solar system was even visited by a predator civilization.


And if you watch that video you will also understand why we need to know the truth, not some persons game of secrets but the truth, we need to know not only if there were previous high technology civilizations but what destroyed them and how they were destroyed, as Brandburg say's God, Gun's and Gut's we need to learn and know the truth and we need to get out there NOW, we are not walking into a friendly universe but a very dangerous one.

So I put it to you that those suppressing the secrets and hiding evidence of a more advanced past spanning much greater breadth of time and perhaps having come and gone several times on our world is actually harming humanity, very severely harming by hampering the search for the truth, you can not protect children from a wolf by hiding there eye's with your hand.

But you can at least give them a little tiny bit of a chance if you tell them what you know and give them a sharpened stick or better yet a spear to face that wolf pack and even more if they stand together to do so.

This is not about your Ego or Mine or Harte's it is about the human race, out kid's the future and there world that we will not even see (in our current life) but God willing they shall survive and the better we equip them now the more chance they will have then.

edit on 26-8-2020 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2020 @ 09:27 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767




He was challenged by two people criticizing him so he asked them to debate with him and neither had the gut's to face him in a public debate because he is a REAL scientist not a back seat driver and critique.

Source?
Whom did he challenge? And don't say, "watch the video."
edit on 8/26/2020 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2020 @ 11:46 PM
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originally posted by: Guyfriday


I already showed that people started populating the Nile River area around 5500BCE. That's 2000 years before the first Dynastic Period. That's not a "pop up from nowhere" moment in time.



It also coincides reasonably well with the drying up of the Sahara, which had previously been green enough to be habitable.


originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Guyfriday

Wasnt their some concern about a tide mark on the GP, along with heavy salt deposits on the internal wall? Anything that shakes the paragdim usualy gets ignored for orthodoxy.Didnt the Egyptions just pop up from nowhere, mabey they suffered a disruption and had to repopulate the Nile delta.Mabey the Earth goes through regular climatic disruptions, all very cyclical.Who really knows, but the Myceans had some pretty nice architecture, internal plumbing, all based on having the time, with plenty of food giving that time.Then all of a sudden it was gone.




The Bronze age collapse is quite a mystery.

Nobody really knows what caused it. A flood is not impossible, but most of the best flooding events have already been tracked to the 10,000 to 11,000 range. Around the time of the "Younger Dryas Event"

This doesn't mean that the Bronze Age Collapse couldn't ALSO have involved flooding, though. It well may have.


Just like how the Minoans make a good basis for the "Atlantis" story. But that doesn't mean there wasn't ALSO an earlier culture that had "Atlantis" like properties to it. (Indeed, it is always possible that Minoans might have been copying that older culture.)




Either way, I think it is admirable that you choose to research the Bronze Age collapse. I'm glad somebody on ATS is doing so. I hope you find many interesting clues.



posted on Aug, 27 2020 @ 12:35 AM
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originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

Just like how the Minoans make a good basis for the "Atlantis" story. But that doesn't mean there wasn't ALSO an earlier culture that had "Atlantis" like properties to it. (Indeed, it is always possible that Minoans might have been copying that older culture.)




Either way, I think it is admirable that you choose to research the Bronze Age collapse. I'm glad somebody on ATS is doing so. I hope you find many interesting clues.


The Minoan Civilization is nothing more than a lazy persons Atlantis. In my thread, Atlantis, I give very good reasons why the Atlantis vs Attica War has to be someplace with land access. The Rovigo and Ferrara region of Italy makes the best possible points where the island kingdom might have existed before the Alpine Glacial Shelf collapsed onto the area of Italy. Looking at a map of the region you can see what I'm getting at when compared to the tale given in Critias.

The Bronze Age collapse was most likely caused by regional warfare due to the effects of the Hekla 1000-930 BCE eruption which caused a temperature drop in the northern half of the planet, and was also a possible cause for a drought that was recorded by the Egyptians. That drought was responsible for a massive famine that may have driven many cultures into wars for resources. Given the lack of food, lack of academics to record many of the events, and possible lack of survivors a regional collapse of the many societies wouldn't be out of the question.



posted on Aug, 27 2020 @ 01:48 AM
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a reply to: Guyfriday

I think it can be a bt worrying to a lot of people when you discuss the posibiity of an advanced society a long way back in time.Because it brings up the question that if it was so advanced why did it fail.I am talking about a long time back when the world wide polygonal walls were the rage. In one mans life time the human race has gone from the horse and cart to the Moon. To suggest that this hasnt happened before is looking like a low probability.Advanced depends on who is defining it as advanced, and compared to what.The Bronze age collapse is looking more like a climate event caused primarily by a long drought.That was mild compared to other events , so collapse and growth could be the norm not constant linear advancement. The moment knowledge and skills have to be held in Libraries and computers. It becomes extra somatic.Then after an a cataclysmic event might very well exist in pockets untill circumstances align for it to be brought together again.



posted on Aug, 27 2020 @ 02:44 AM
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a reply to: anonentity

Just keep in mind "an advanced society a long way back in time", doesn't mean that they had computers, it could simply mean that they had bronze tool while the rest of the world was still using stone, or they had a system of social and academics that the Greeks didn't have yet.

According to the tale in Critias the reason the group supplying the military force under Atlantis' control was due to the Earthquake that wiped everyone out. In Greek history this was around the same time that the people of Attica took shelter in the caves. So there is collaboration between one event and the other.

A few things to bring up again, that will make you think:
Humans lived in the stone age for 3.3-3.4 million years
We've lived in the metallurgical ages (copper age, bronze age, iron age, todays age) for the last 5 thousand years or so

So as of today the only humans to ever have lived at the peak of their era were the people of the stone age. We haven't even come close to what we could achieve in our age. Though it could all come to an end very easily. If the western slopes of the La Palma volcano falls off into the Atlantic, we can kiss the east coast of the United States good by, as well as a lot of the western area of Europe. There are more then a few massive volcanos that could go off causing massive set backs on society, then we have threats from outer space that could end our current age with a boom. Of course the biggest problem we also have is what happened during the fall of the Roman Empire, and that is a complete failure of society to allow education and personal freedoms to occur while also restriction on human development and failures of local authorities to maintain infrastructures.

There's reasons I like real books over electronic books just for that reason.




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