Abortion: My Theory and Opinion

Why would I take on such a volatile subject matter? There were other forums this could go into, but it was just necessary for me to put it here.

I know there are some very strong opinions about abortion and the ramifications involved.

I am male. I have no right to dictate what a woman does with an appendage in her own body, that is what a fetus is, an appendage living off the host. Okay, I could use a different word, appendage sounds so insensitive. The fetus is only alive because it is attached to the umbilical cord, protected by amniotic fluid, given nutrients and is growing, usually for a 9 month incubation period, and until it is born and sustaining life on its own accord, not a human being, yet.

This is where are the tricky stuff happens. Legislation exists that suggest a fetus is a human after a certain time, while in the mothers womb. The religious people think it is a sin to abort. Then you have the woman that are assaulted and impregnated unwillingly. Promiscuous women get pregnant after a 1 night stand. Some cultures forbid it.

Spiritually, I am of the opinion that until the fetus becomes a human there is not a soul, at the moment of birth is when the soul enters the fetus, giving it the spark of life it needs to become human.

Abortion is not murder. For any reason because the fetus is not a human. As for the reason to have one? That is the right of the mother, regardless of why and while late term abortions are not the norm they could be necessary for health reasons.

"If I had an abortion, I would not have this beautiful child". That is correct, you would have a different child. Sometimes the right choice is difficult to make, still, it is not anyone to decide but for the mother. Nature causes miscarriages for various reasons at different stages of pregnancy, there are accidents, some woman do not want to admit they are pregnant and go into denial or ignore obvious issues with their body, but again I will say as a male, I have no right to dictate what a woman does with something growing inside of her own body.

Cancer has to be removed. Tumors. Organs. And all with the consent of the person who has the problem or issue. Being pregnant is a medical issue until the fetus is born, everything the mother is dealing with is a medical issue concerning her own body. Her environment, her religion, her culture, her age, her life, her choice. Her mind.

There is so much hypocrisy involved when dealing with this issue, because so many people have a strong opinion for or against, men and women, unless they are forced to make a decision regarding their own situation. A teenage daughter pregnant in a strict religious family against abortion or one that insist on it because she is too young. The woman that is raped. The woman that gets pregnant on the one night stand.

I will never know what being pregnant is really like, I can only imagine, but if someone tried to tell me that I had to have an operation or could not have an operation on my own body for whatever reason, or introduced legislation into law on if I can or give me a time limit about a medical issue, then I would be furious. Such is society. There are many important issues we face daily, but abortion is only experienced by woman, and it is their choice, unless medically unable to do so and it falls on a proxy to decide.

That is not to say men can not be affected by the choices being made. Maybe they want the child, maybe they do not even know, maybe they want to abort the responsibility.

I can speak about the experience of being an expectant father only to have a miscarriage, I can speak of the experience of being an expectant father and holding my newborn son for the first time, one was sad and the other was amazing. I can speak of the possibility that there are children I fathered without knowing or the possibility that a woman I had a one night stand with had an abortion. The fact is when I was not married, I had unprotected sex without concern for contraceptive on her part, I always left that decision to the woman, if she was on the pill or using a diaphragm or not using anything, what did I care?

I was careful when I was younger, but as I got older I stopped really worrying about it until I realized a spiritual part of me was suffering from my behavior. I still wanted to have sex, but it became more intimate and a reason to want to have a child with wife. If she wanted to abort a pregnancy for any reason, it would still be her decision. As long as the fetus is in her body, married or not, I have no right to dictate. I can have an opinion, I can be emotionally invested, I can get a divorce, but I am not the one carrying the fetus.

When we had our miscarriage, it was an abortion. We buried a fetus. There was no soul. It was not human. It was not murder. When my son was born, his soul entered the body at the moment of birth. He was a viable living being at that point.

Oh well, when we take a sonogram the fetus is moving, it has a heart beat and little sex organs, so it must be alive. Yes those things are true, but how and why is a different theory. The heart beat is not coming from the energy of a soul yet, it is coming from the connection the mother has, it is her soul giving the fetus a heartbeat, the fetus is growing, it is getting nutrients from the mother, until it is not connected to the umbilical cord, the fetus relies completely on the mother for survival. It is not yet human and no soul has entered it yet.

I suspect by now you have some strong opinions to voice or perhaps not, perhaps none of you will read this or care, I just felt compelled for some very strange odd reason to write about this today.

a reply to: spiritofsoul

The problem with this whole subject is that every viewpoint is an opinion.
Many of those opinions are validated with bad ideas.

You compare a fetus to a tumor.
That's a bad comparison.
Tumors are an abnormal growth.
A fetus is a normal growth with the body doing what it is designed to do.

There is also the argument about when does a fetus become a human. Some believe it's conception while others feel it's when the baby crosses the magic vagina line.

It's a pile of cells!
Yeah.. That's true..
A lotto ticket is just a piece of paper until it becomes millions of dollars. Funny how time and circumstance can change outlooks.

The whole topic comes down to rights.
The woman's right to her body.
Which she can't sell oddly enough.

The man's lack of rights on the subject.
The woman decides if she will hold a man as a financial hostage for 18 plus years.

And the lack of rights for the fetus.

I'm an atheist so I hold no opinion on the soul topic.

I'm also not pro life or pro choice.
Don't really care what people do with themselves but it does bother me that men get no say in the matter. My body my choice now pay me child support.

originally posted by: spiritofsoul
Why would I take on such a volatile subject matter? There were other forums this could go into, but it was just necessary for me to put it here.

I know there are some very strong opinions about abortion and the ramifications involved.

I am male. I have no right to dictate what a woman does with an appendage in her own body, that is what a fetus is, an appendage living off the host. Okay, I could use a different word, appendage sounds so insensitive. The fetus is only alive because it is attached to the umbilical cord, protected by amniotic fluid, given nutrients and is growing, usually for a 9 month incubation period, and until it is born and sustaining life on its own accord, not a human being, yet.

This is where are the tricky stuff happens. Legislation exists that suggest a fetus is a human after a certain time, while in the mothers womb. The religious people think it is a sin to abort. Then you have the woman that are assaulted and impregnated unwillingly. Promiscuous women get pregnant after a 1 night stand. Some cultures forbid it.

Spiritually, I am of the opinion that until the fetus becomes a human there is not a soul, at the moment of birth is when the soul enters the fetus, giving it the spark of life it needs to become human.

Abortion is not murder. For any reason because the fetus is not a human. As for the reason to have one? That is the right of the mother, regardless of why and while late term abortions are not the norm they could be necessary for health reasons.

"If I had an abortion, I would not have this beautiful child". That is correct, you would have a different child. Sometimes the right choice is difficult to make, still, it is not anyone to decide but for the mother. Nature causes miscarriages for various reasons at different stages of pregnancy, there are accidents, some woman do not want to admit they are pregnant and go into denial or ignore obvious issues with their body, but again I will say as a male, I have no right to dictate what a woman does with something growing inside of her own body.

Cancer has to be removed. Tumors. Organs. And all with the consent of the person who has the problem or issue. Being pregnant is a medical issue until the fetus is born, everything the mother is dealing with is a medical issue concerning her own body. Her environment, her religion, her culture, her age, her life, her choice. Her mind.

There is so much hypocrisy involved when dealing with this issue, because so many people have a strong opinion for or against, men and women, unless they are forced to make a decision regarding their own situation. A teenage daughter pregnant in a strict religious family against abortion or one that insist on it because she is too young. The woman that is raped. The woman that gets pregnant on the one night stand.

I will never know what being pregnant is really like, I can only imagine, but if someone tried to tell me that I had to have an operation or could not have an operation on my own body for whatever reason, or introduced legislation into law on if I can or give me a time limit about a medical issue, then I would be furious. Such is society. There are many important issues we face daily, but abortion is only experienced by woman, and it is their choice, unless medically unable to do so and it falls on a proxy to decide.

That is not to say men can not be affected by the choices being made. Maybe they want the child, maybe they do not even know, maybe they want to abort the responsibility.

I can speak about the experience of being an expectant father only to have a miscarriage, I can speak of the experience of being an expectant father and holding my newborn son for the first time, one was sad and the other was amazing. I can speak of the possibility that there are children I fathered without knowing or the possibility that a woman I had a one night stand with had an abortion. The fact is when I was not married, I had unprotected sex without concern for contraceptive on her part, I always left that decision to the woman, if she was on the pill or using a diaphragm or not using anything, what did I care?

I was careful when I was younger, but as I got older I stopped really worrying about it until I realized a spiritual part of me was suffering from my behavior. I still wanted to have sex, but it became more intimate and a reason to want to have a child with wife. If she wanted to abort a pregnancy for any reason, it would still be her decision. As long as the fetus is in her body, married or not, I have no right to dictate. I can have an opinion, I can be emotionally invested, I can get a divorce, but I am not the one carrying the fetus.

When we had our miscarriage, it was an abortion. We buried a fetus. There was no soul. It was not human. It was not murder. When my son was born, his soul entered the body at the moment of birth. He was a viable living being at that point.

Oh well, when we take a sonogram the fetus is moving, it has a heart beat and little sex organs, so it must be alive. Yes those things are true, but how and why is a different theory. The heart beat is not coming from the energy of a soul yet, it is coming from the connection the mother has, it is her soul giving the fetus a heartbeat, the fetus is growing, it is getting nutrients from the mother, until it is not connected to the umbilical cord, the fetus relies completely on the mother for survival. It is not yet human and no soul has entered it yet.

I suspect by now you have some strong opinions to voice or perhaps not, perhaps none of you will read this or care, I just felt compelled for some very strange odd reason to write about this today.

Quite the ramble here. I stopped reading when you said you were male.

You've no clue because we...are men.

Women's perogative

And.. your "theory" is pointless...you're not a woman. Nor qualified.

Let a woman explain my masculinity...or absense thereof...because of a opposite "opinion" of what it really is for me. Nope.

Even your op reeks of insensitivity...not a "theory".

Women deserve more than a man theorizing their side.

a reply to: spiritofsoul

The unborn child is living.

That is a fact.

The unborn child is human.

That is a fact.

Abortion is the legal ending of the life of a living human.

a reply to: spiritofsoul

And except most women never recover from the belief they killed their own child.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: spiritofsoul

And except most women never recover from the belief they killed their own child.

Women and accountability rarely go hand in hand, and how do you think men feel when someone else decides to "kill" their child and they have little or no say in the matter?

originally posted by: nerbot

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: spiritofsoul

And except most women never recover from the belief they killed their own child.

Women and accountability rarely go hand in hand, and how do you think men feel when someone else decides to "kill" their child and they have little or no say in the matter?

That’s pretty nasty
I guess that’s why people should be committed to each other before these things happen.
Truth is always, there are two people involved always

a reply to: Bluntone22

I agree with our OP on this issue.

The woman decides if she will hold a man as a financial hostage for 18 plus years.

I also agree with you on this issue.
A pregnancy from a noncommittal sexual encounter, other than rape, should be considered a woman's choice, her choice to have sex and her choice to either continue the pregnancy or not. Her choice. Her freedom to choose to have sex or not to have sex. Her responsibility to herself.

If the woman wants to have sex with a woman there is no chance of pregnancy. If a woman wants to have sex with a fertile man, well, that is her responsibility as well and should be her responsibility to deal with the consequences.

Freedom of choice should mean freedom of choice for ones own decisions. Until men can get pregnant all we are are sexual tools to be used at a woman's discretion with no further responsibility for her own choices.

All that of course changes in a committed relationship where pregnancy is an agreed upon and accepted probability calling for further responsibility from both the male and the female.

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

I can agree with that.
If you choose to ride with a drunk driver you accepted the possible outcome.
Same for having sex with a fertile male male, you know and accept the risk.

A woman giving a man an std has no responsibility for his future medical issues.

a reply to: spiritofsoul

So after my wife and I had two children
I decided that that was all that I was prepared to handle.
So I got a vasectomy.

A few years later I had two children and no wife.
After a suitable six years passed,
I thought I'd give it another try.

One night, Mother Nature ambushed me in a dark alley.
"What have you done to yourself?" she forcefully enquired,
"You realize that you are useless to Me now don't you ?"

What could I say? "well...um...You see..."

And so I'm a celibate.
=======================

Actually, I don't think Mother Nature is any more pleased by human over population than any one else is. Just ask the other animals.

2 people yes...but sometimes one is an unwilling participant ...rape and molestation..the other poster claiming most women regret having an abortion.did not post a link...so I researched www.ucsf.edu... guess what 5 years after having an abortion 95% yes you heard me 95% said they still felt they made the right decision...even those who struggled with their decision.

one day I was reading stuff that the pro life side was saying..one of them said and I quote " you may regret having an abortion but you will NEVER regret having a child" well there are PLENTY of parents out there who regret having children, even parents who wanted their children and did not even consider abortion at the time.

how many women were conviced to not abort with this LIE and then RESENTED the child..abused the child..killed the child........they are even trying to take away hormonal birth control.....the audacity of those who lie and want to take choice away.....don't want an abortion don't have one...but you are NOT the boss of everyone...

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: nerbot

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: spiritofsoul

And except most women never recover from the belief they killed their own child.

Women and accountability rarely go hand in hand, and how do you think men feel when someone else decides to "kill" their child and they have little or no say in the matter?

That’s pretty nasty
I guess that’s why people should be committed to each other before these things happen.
Truth is always, there are two people involved always

a reply to: spiritofsoul

The thread so far struck me as a sausage party of sorts.

We should carefully consider what we say.

What if the women folk caught us engaged in
Locker Room Talk!

a reply to: research100

they are even trying to take away hormonal birth control

Yep! That right there!
Just 'cuz I'm a celibate doesn't mean everyone has to be.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Truth is always, there are two people involved always

Yup, mother and baby.

Men seem to be little more than sperm donors and wallets these days.

a reply to: pthena

Women want to be treated equally until they have to deal with the down side.
Then they scream patriarchy

a reply to: spiritofsoul

As a woman, I applaud this!!! Thank you for your gracious viewpoint. It shows real evolution of the mind.

As a woman who has had two abortions, you are right, it should always be her decision and is never an easy one. A fetus growing in one's body unwanted is indeed like a tumour! It eats at your soul with every passing day. Abortion is often just about letting go of potential... that potential could have become a child but you were not able or ready. For me, I have found a parallel in farming... sometimes an animal is born suffering and in taking it's life as humanely as possible we are just passing that potential on. I honor it's energy for being, just as I did with my two pregnancies, and set it free. All matter and consciousness are just part of a larger whole, no matter what form.

For those who say adoption is the right way to go I disagree. Adoption can be a lovely solution but not all women are comfortable with it either. I certainly wasn't as the reason I had abortions was due to mental illness and too much alcohol so I did not want to pass on any damage.

I went on to have two dearly loved kids when my life was more stable and know I did the right thing at the time.

a reply to: Raggedyman

I recovered just fine. Energy in, energy out. There is a sense of loss, of course, but it is the sense of "what if" so pure speculation really.

a reply to: Bluntone22

You haven't a clue.

It's extremely complicated, and the nuances escape most guys.

I'll have to acknowledge the words of Beloved Padre Pio, as I couldn't have said it better Myself:

In a now famous story, Father Pellegrino Funicelli, who assisted Padre Pio for many years, once confronted the saint on the sin, asking him:

“Today you denied absolution to a woman because she had voluntarily undergone an abortion. Why have you been so rigorous with this poor unfortunate?” (Padre Pio would sometimes refuse to give absolution to a penitent if they showed insufficient contrition; often they would return and he’d give absolution if they were sincere).

Padre Pio responded: “The day that people lose their horror for abortion will be the most terrible day for humanity. Abortion is not only a homicide but also a suicide. Shouldn’t we have the courage to manifest our faith before those who commit two crimes within one act?

“Suicide?,” asked Father Pellegrino.

“The suicide of the human race will be understood by those who will see the earth populated by the elderly and depopulated of children: burnt as a desert,” Padre Pio replied.