The Absolute Power of Christianity!

NOONE has an idea of your proof and since noone has ever given a valid proof for God, allow me to doubt whether you have one.

I'll back you up on this one saint. I certainly have an idea of his proof. Saint just went one way with it, and I chose a slightly different course. All with the same happy ending however!!!!!!!!!!

By that logic, though, you're having a conversation with yourself here online. You can offer no proof to anyone on here that you're not an automated bot designed to pick out words in previous posts and return a predetermined response as a result, just as I can't tell you this isn't some clever ploy to turn you away from believing I'm a bot.

Nothing can be proven, so everything must be false?

Originally posted by junglejake
Nothing can be proven, so everything must be false?

Your trying to say that there is as much proof of God as anything else?
Things should have to be proven to the disbeliever not the other way around. We have a reason to believe most theories as they have been tested time and time again.

I could say I have an invisble dog, but you can't sense him in any way. When you don't believe me though, I just say," Prove me wrong". You couldn't prove he's not there just as I couldn't prove he is there.

If there is no way God can be proven, or sensed in any way, does it really matter if he exists?

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

Here's my attempt at explaining the Trinity...

Jesus is God made manifest in the flesh. The Holy Spirit is God/Jesus' presence in us. The difficult part to explain is that all three are separate entities.

I have to log off for a short time, but intend to finish my attempt. Sorry

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy
If there is no way God can be proven, or sensed in any way, does it really matter if he exists?
[edit on 20-6-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

Only if He does. If he doesn't, then it doesn't matter. If, however, the Christian God does exist, then yes, it is of paramount importance that you know if He does or does not exist.

My statement about nothing being provable doesn't just apply to theories. I can tell you with complete confidence that, when I take my feet off of my computer and walk to the kitchen to get a sody-pop, the floor will support me. I am fairly sure I'm not going to step in the exact same spots every time as I had in the past, so I can't say with 100% certainty that the floor is going to keep me up. I just have faith that it will. I have faith that, as I press these little black buttons, my thoughts are being conveyed into an electronic format, and I have faith that that which I see on my screen is going to be what shows up on the ATS servers, if they actually exist.

Nothing is provable, we can only rely on evidence gathered from multiple situations which is consistant in order to apply that to situations not tested. There is a lot of evidence that there is a creator. There's a lot of evidence that there is a God. However, there isn't proof, because there isn't proof of anything.

Originally posted by BadMojo
Here's my attempt at explaining the Trinity...

Jesus is God made manifest in the flesh. The Holy Spirit is God/Jesus' presence in us. The difficult part to explain is that all three are separate entities.

I have to log off for a short time, but intend to finish my attempt. Sorry

The corners of a triangle are each seporate points, yet they create a whole. Humans are mind, body, and spirit (some would contend with the spirit part, though). You're engauged with my mind right now, not my body. Yet, without my body my mind would not exist. Two totally seporate things yet they make up a whole.

Nothing can be proven, so everything must be false?

Ask that physicist what the energy is holding everything together. He can't answer, but freely admits that it's there. He searches for the answer in a laboratory just as we search for answers in things that are around us.

Originally posted by junglejake
There is a lot of evidence that there is a creator. There's a lot of evidence that there is a God.

Please enlighten me as to what te evidence is, because I'm sure if there was any we wouldn't be having this discussion.

We can't be 100% sure of anything, but your saying that you have as much faith in your floor, as you have in God. You probably have faith in your floor because everytime you've walked on it before it's held up. Where do you get your faith in God?


[edit on 20-6-2005 by Charlie Murphy]

Originally posted by Charlie Murphy

Originally posted by junglejake
We can't be 100% sure of anything, but your saying that you have as much faith in your floor, as you havein God. You probably have faith in your floor because everytime you've walked on it before it's held up. Where do you get your faith in God?

Every time I've leaned on him, He's held me up

The actual reasons for my coming to faith, and continuing in faith is rather long, and is in development for another thread. I still haven't nailed down that three minute conversion story because so much happened (and had to happen) to bring me to believe with all my being in God and Jesus Christ as my savior.

As for evidence around us, let me grab an encyclopedia to get the topic...Crap, turned to Nova Scotia, and I know nothing about Nova Scotia...Lemme try again...

North Carolina...WTF?! New York...Now y'all will think I'm lying -- New Hampshire. I'm grabbing a different letter...lol And religious songs aren't going to work, either...

Aite, I'm disheartened, so I'm going to go with something else. How many self-described messiahs have come across this earth who had followers? I'll answer like the dude who guessed Meg's weight -- a lot. Like so many before and after Him, the Jewish leadership at the time when Peter was delivering the Good News throughout the area with help, came together to decide how to handle this new sect of Judiasm that was sprouting, saying the messiah had already come. They finally conceeded that, like all those before Jesus, after the messiah had died, they eventually dispersed and disappeared. Yet Christianity flourished promoting a dead man as their king. It is the only religion that has come from belief in a dead savior. The only one, yet it is the largest religion on the planet. There have been folks who have tried. The most recent example that comes to mind is David Koresh. How many followers does he still have?

Another wee bit of evidence for God is just how incredibly intricate everything is and yet it works perfectly together. Personally, the more I learn about quantum mechanics the more my faith is reinforced. Everything, everything you see, feel, touch, taste or smell is a wave. Everything in this universe is a wave. Yet, all these waves interact so perfectly with one another that we are given a moon that just happens to be the exact size in the sky as our sun. They are able to give us the heat and energy from a star which is exactly as far as it needs to be to keep us alive without killing all of us and sustain life. The universe is infinitely complex, yet at the same time infinitely simple. I mean, jeeze, those rocks you walk on to get from your house to the car have the potential within their confines to be a computer! I mean, what the heck!? What are the chances?! All of our technology, that capablility was there when the universe was formed, it just had to be harnessed.

Also, a final note. God gave man dominion over all the animals, that they would fear man after we were cast out of the garden. I find it interesting that this is true. These soft, peach, almost completely defensless bags of flesh worry even a shark or tiger. While there are exceptions to the fear, they are individual animals, not the species as a whole. What possible evolutionary reason would all the animals of the world fear man?

Now if only He gave us dominion over the mosquito...

Originally posted by junglejake
If, however, the Christian God does exist, then yes, it is of paramount importance that you know if He does or does not exist.

All the more nasty of him not to simply let us know in a reliable way then, don't you agree?

He seems to value ignorant belief (i.e., faith) over the usage of the reasoning ability that he gave us. That sounds rediculously absurd for an omni^3 being, but right in line with the manipulation of men by men.

Originally posted by junglejake
The corners of a triangle are each seporate points, yet they create a whole. Humans are mind, body, and spirit (some would contend with the spirit part, though). You're engauged with my mind right now, not my body. Yet, without my body my mind would not exist. Two totally seporate things yet they make up a whole.

I would argue that the mind and body are one in the same, and that you can't even define what you mean by "spirit" in a comprehensible way, unless you're using it as a synonym for consciousness.

Another wee bit of evidence for God is just how incredibly intricate everything is and yet it works perfectly together. Personally, the more I learn about quantum mechanics the more my faith is reinforced.

I certainly did not detect any prior evidence for gods in your post before this one... did you perhaps intend that? Either way, this is not evidence for or against her either.

How would it be? That the universe is intricate and complex is strikingly evident; but you give us no reason to believe that someone or something "made" it... simply an honest account of awe for the workings of what exists. In no way did you describe how this is evidence for a god.

What you succeeded in asserting was (more or less): "These things, which a god made, are amazing".

This is not the same thing as what was asked of you... evidence for the existance of a god. The assertion you made assumed the existence of a god... not prove that existence.

If you can correct this logical oversight, and succeed in providing evidence for a god's existence, you would be the first person in the history of mankind. good luck.



[edit on 21-6-2005 by TheeStateMachine]

It must be nice to sit back and wait for God to do something to show he exists. If only dating were the same way. To sit there and wait for the man/woman of your dreams to fall into your lap. After all, we have it coming to us right? We deserve it, yes?

Real relationships take real work.

Pray, train, study,
God bless.

Either this means you can live with a girlfriend that never answers back or that God answers you indeed somehow, in which case you're even more crazy than I first thought.

simon, why do you make such a strenuous effort to discount something that you say doesn't exist? This gives more credence to the arguement someone (sorry, forgot who) posted earlier about if He doesn't exist why all the hubbub, bub.

By the way, do you ever ADD to a discussion or just insult everyone who disagrees with your point of view?

Because I dislike the things done in the name of non existent beings, whether they be called Allah or God. That goes from terrorism, mass murder, oppression to holding back science - stem cell research - and contributing to the Aids epidemic by declaring condoms can't be used. This causes death and destruction on global scale. I dislike not only those things done but also the people who help making it possible by believing the ridiculous things religious leaders have put into their heads using some silly book.

Originally posted by spamandham
All the more nasty of him not to simply let us know in a reliable way then, don't you agree?

Not necessarily. In the past, God has made himself known through physical appearance. While the result wasn't denial of His existance, people rebelled against him. Look at Adam and Eve, look at Moses and the Jews druing their exodus, all of the book of Judges, etc. If He let us know in what science would consider a reliable way, we would simply continue living in the manner in which we do today, but instead of denying Him, we'd be rebelling against Him.

Either way, we tend to react the same way -- I'm going to do what I want, when I want, how I want.

Originally posted by Simon666
Either this means you can live with a girlfriend that never answers back or that God answers you indeed somehow, in which case you're even more crazy than I first thought.

You better chalk me up there with Saint as being even more crazy than you thought

TheeStateMachine: I guess I wasn't really clear in the awe paragraph, but I was moving towards the sheer probability of something like this just happening instead of being created. Sorry it wasn't clearer

Well then, simon, what do you say to the numerous scientists that changed their disbelief in the Bible from scietific study? One example is Dr. Ivan Panin. Not only was he a well-known and respected scientist, he WAS an atheist until he studied the Bible. This "silly book", as you so hap-hazardly label it, has scientific knowledge in it that are just recently being understood.

Sticking your head in the sand doesn't make the Truth go away. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. When you close your eyes, does the world cease to exist until you open them?

Ivan Nikolayevitsh Panin was born in Russia in 1855 and emigrated first to Germany and then to the United States. In 1878 he entered Harvard University, writing in the Book of Records that he was "self-taught". Four years later, he graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree. During the first year of his university studies he took several mathematics units but obtained mediocre grades. After graduation he became known for his lectures on Russian literature.

cs.anu.edu.au...

===========================

Literature is not science in my view. Panin seems to be a nutcase who sought all kinds of numerical meanings in the bible.

Just to clarify what you're saying, Simon (we just had a loooong arsed seminar on communication skills at work, I learned this one 4 hours to be told to restate what you believe someone is trying to say to avoid misunderstandings )

Are you saying no thinking, respectable scientific mind would buy into this God mumbo jumbo?