Evolution and Sex.

a reply to: Freeborn

Well that seems to be a bit of a show stopper......I hope no-one thinks I was actually being serious?

originally posted by: cooperton
Given an average population of 50,000 that means there should be around 31,250,000,000 fossilized remains of these transitional species. Yet, we can't find any of these complete fossilized remains?

Face it, evolution is a lie.

It's your estimated rate of formation of complete fossilized remains which is false, not evolution.

a reply to: Freeborn
The problem with making that kind of joke here, without any smiley faces or emoticons, is that some people do say things like that seriously, so on the internet without any of the social cues like voice inflections which accompany personal interactions, there's no way to know if you were being serious or not, until you explained that you were not. Maybe next time you make a joke, whch might be construed as a serious comment, add a smiley face to show it's a joke, like this one perhaps:

I thought about this bit. I still don't get how breeding can create new Chromosomes. And it leads me back to how do things with different Chromosomes breed and continue breeding to form a entirely different life form. I would think there would be more evidences of Missing links not less.

For me it is very hard to imagine a singular animal breeding and adding a chromosome and still being compatible to continue breeding. It also means that everything is incestial or interbred. Which I thought was detrimental to DNA in the experiences we have observed.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
It's your estimated rate of formation of complete fossilized remains which is false, not evolution.

So out of the estimated 31 billion transitional hominids that were theorized to be walking around for millions of years, you believe we can't find one complete fossil of any of them?? The more likely answer is that there were no transitional hominids ever, because they never existed and evolution is a lie.

originally posted by: TheSkunk

For me it is very hard to imagine a singular animal breeding and adding a chromosome and still being compatible to continue breeding.

Exactly. For an egg to be fertilized it has to have an equal number of chromosomes from the mom and dad, otherwise it doesnt line it properly at the metaphase plate for cellular reproduction. Although, that is theoretical, because we have never witness a chromosome number change in an organism (despite countless experiments selectively trying to mutate organisms and analyzing their genome). Evolutionists rely on faith that it is possible.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
It's your estimated rate of formation of complete fossilized remains which is false, not evolution.

So out of the estimated 31 billion transitional hominids that were theorized to be walking around for millions of years, you believe we can't find one complete fossil of any of them?? The more likely answer is that there were no transitional hominids ever, because they never existed and evolution is a lie.

Fossils that old are almost never found complete, but this skeleton nicknamed "Turkana Boy" is fairly complete as fossils go, residing in a museum in Kenya where the anti-evolutionists are not too happy about it because some of them think the world is 6000 years old and it doesn't fit into their bible-based belief system.

Turkana Boy

originally posted by: TheSkunk

For me it is very hard to imagine a singular animal breeding and adding a chromosome and still being compatible to continue breeding.

At least you're being more reasonable now than your dumb comment about a fish sprouting a leg not being able to find another fish who sprouted a leg to mate with. It's a lot more plausible that an organism can have an altered number of chromosomes, and find a breeding partner with an altered number of chromosomes. This paper contains some related research.

Evolutionary mechanisms of runaway chromosome number change in Agrodiaetus butterflies

a reply to: Arbitrageur
Mate you have an attitude problem. I don't appreciate the name calling or inference that I am "Dumb". If you can't discuss this as an adult, then don't. Your very welcome not to reply again.

I have been reasonable this whole thread. You seem to be the one carrying on.


In the study you mentioned there was no mention of chromosome change through sex.

I also conceded already that an insect or organism that had multiple offspring could achieve this easier.

The problem still being how does this happen with a singular offspring. A Chromosome change?

What has Homo Erectus got to do with this Conversation? Are there chromosome numbers the same as Modern Humans?

Evolution
Further information: Chimpanzee genome project
Humans have only twenty-three pairs of chromosomes, while all other extant members of Hominidae have twenty-four pairs.[7] (It is believed that Neanderthals and Denisovans had twenty-three pairs.)[7] Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.[8][9]

The evidence for this includes:

The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has nearly identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.[10][11]
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere in the q21.3–q22.1 region.[12]
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the q13 band, far from either end of the chromosome.[13]
“ We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.

This study even seems to allude to 2 apes making one human.

originally posted by: TheSkunk

Evolution
Further information: Chimpanzee genome project
Humans have only twenty-three pairs of chromosomes, while all other extant members of Hominidae have twenty-four pairs.[7] (It is believed that Neanderthals and Denisovans had twenty-three pairs.)[7] Human chromosome 2 is a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.[8][9]

The evidence for this includes:

The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has nearly identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.[10][11]
The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere in the q21.3–q22.1 region.[12]
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the q13 band, far from either end of the chromosome.[13]
“ We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.

This study even seems to allude to 2 apes making one human.

No, it’s describing how the LCA (last common ancestor) of chimpanzees and humans underwent a chromosomal fusion. The same information that is located on Human Chromosome 2 exists in Chimpanzees,Gorilla and orangutan, but on 2 separate chromosomes. This is why other members of Hominidae have 24 pair of Chromosomes and we only have 23. The existence of parts of telomeres, (which are normally located at the ends of a gene Sequence) in the middle of the chromosome and centromeres(Found in the middle of the sequence) found near the ends Only adds more evidence for both chromosomal fusion and a LCA as well as close relationships with other Hominidae.

originally posted by: peter vlar

No, it’s describing how the LCA (last common ancestor) of chimpanzees and humans underwent a chromosomal fusion.

How would it have undergone a chromosomal fusion? It has never happened in nature, and has never been artificially induced in a lab either. Yet you believe that this happened not just once, but twice in the same generation and these two male and female chromosomal fusion hominids managed to find each other and mate?

Even if a chromosomal fusion occurred, there would be two centromeres on the newly fused chromosome. How would they properly align on the metaphase plate necessary for cellular divisions and growth of an organism if they didnt have a single centromere?

The same information that is located on Human Chromosome 2 exists in Chimpanzees,Gorilla and orangutan, but on 2 separate chromosomes.

That is only if you look past the regions of the chromosome that don't agree with such wishful thinking. Take for example
the PGML, FOXD, CBWD, CXYorf1-like and other genes that are all embedded into the theorized fusion region that are not homologous with what we see on the Chimpanzee 2A and 2B chromosome.

You don't hear about these discrepancies because evolutionary theorists simply ignore the inconvenient demonstrations that invalidate the theory. The reason you think they match so well is because these experiments leave out the fact that, for example, there are 150,000 base pairs not found in the chimpanzee 2A and 2B chromosome yet are present in this supposed fusion site.



These extra genes were found after comparing the chimpanzee genome. You don't really hear about them in the sci-fi evolution blogs because they demonstrate these regions are not as homologous as evolutionists lead us to believe. So not only has a chromosomal fusion never been replicated or observed in a lab, but the genome sequences of our theorized ancestors don't match the theory either.

a reply to: peter vlarWouldn't the LCE be an ape and therefore 2 apes made a Human?

I think that it re enforced that that one chromosome came from 2 joined in an ape yes. It does not at all say how the one change turned into a male and female breeding pair. Or Group.

I am not asking you to prove speciation and or whether we came from apes.

I am asking how we got a breeding pair of humans via this evolution method.

Can we breed with Apes?

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: peter vlar


No, it’s describing how the LCA (last common ancestor) of chimpanzees and humans underwent a chromosomal fusion.

How would it have undergone a chromosomal fusion? It has never happened in nature, and has never been artificially induced in a lab either.

That it’s never happened in nature is 100% false. We have modern medical documentation of humans and other mammals. Why do you persist in presenting lies to support your opinion?

Yet you believe that this happened not just once, but twice in the same generation and these two male and female chromosomal fusion hominids managed to find each other and mate?

That’s not what I said and you know it. You’re twisting your misinterpretations and then inserting them into a false claim.

Even if a chromosomal fusion occurred, there would be two centromeres on the newly fused chromosome. How would they properly align on the metaphase plate necessary for cellular divisions and growth of an organism if they didnt have a single centromere?

The additional centromeres and telomeres are misplaced in the chain and are only fragments of the original, not the entire centromeres or telomeres. They don’t cause the issues you allude to.

The same information that is located on Human Chromosome 2 exists in Chimpanzees,Gorilla and orangutan, but on 2 separate chromosomes.

That is only if you look past the regions of the chromosome that don't agree with such wishful thinking. Take for example
the PGML, FOXD, CBWD, CXYorf1-like and other genes that are all embedded into the theorized fusion region that are not homologous with what we see on the Chimpanzee 2A and 2B chromosome.

The LCA of Humans and Chimpanzee began diverting around 7MA. Bonobos are even more closely related to chimps, only diverging from one another a million years ago when two Chimpanzee populations were split up by the newly born Congo River which created an impassable geological barrier because neither bonobo nor do chimpanzees swim. There are genetic differences between Chimp and Bonobo as well and after only 1:7 the time we have gone our own way. It’s pretty simple, 7MA of mutation and adaptation.

Yet you believe that this happened not just once, but twice in the same generation and these two male and female chromosomal fusion hominids managed to find each other and mate?

That’s not what I said and you know it. You’re twisting your misinterpretations and then inserting them into a false claim.

You don't hear about these discrepancies because evolutionary theorists simply ignore the inconvenient demonstrations that invalidate the theory. The reason you think they match so well is because these experiments leave out the fact that, for example, there are 150,000 base pairs not found in the chimpanzee 2A and 2B chromosome yet are preseKnt in this supposed fusion site.

7 million years of mutation and adaptation. There isn’t anything to ignore because You’ve shown nothing that falsifies the MES

These extra genes were found after comparing the chimpanzee genome. You don't really hear about them in the sci-fi evolution blogs because they demonstrate these regions are not as homologous as evolutionists lead us to believe.

I think you mean geneticists, not evolutionists.

So not only has a chromosomal fusion never been replicated or observed in a lab, but the genome sequences of our theorized ancestors don't match the theory either.

Neither of the above claims are true. There are many modern day cases of chromosomal fusion. It’s been seen in humans and other mammals. You look at everything through a lense of extreme confirmation bias and it’s shamefully and blatantly obvious. This same conversation has been had dozens of times over the last few years. People correct the errors and misunderstood, provided citations and explanations and you just move on to Another thread, rinse and repeat.

originally posted by: TheSkunk
a reply to: peter vlarWouldn't the LCE be an ape and therefore 2 apes made a Human?

I just want to make sure that I’m understanding your question correctly here... Are you asking if a male and female of the now extinct species of LCA had a baby together that was born a full human within a single generation? If so, then that’s definitely not what happened.

[ quote] I think that it re enforced that that one chromosome came from 2 joined in an ape yes. It does not at all say how the one change turned into a male and female breeding pair. Or Group.

A close look at our genome and the genome of our close relatives reveals that we didn’t. We just combined a couple of them. Every now and then, chromosomes fuse. This fusion occurs as sperm and eggs develop, as pairs of chromosomes fold over each other and swap chunks of DNA. Sometimes two different chromosomes grab onto each other and then fail to separate. Scientists have observed both humans and mammals with fused chromosomes. Chromosomes typically have distinctive stretches of DNA in their center and at their ends. From time to time, scientists will find an individual that’s short a chromosome, but one of the chromosomes it retains now has an odd structure, with chromosome endings near the middle and other peculiar features. This might seem like a fantastic mutation–something like a human and a horse being joined into a centaur. Remarkably, however, fused chromosomes are real, and there are surprising number of normal, healthy people carrying them.

www.discovermagazine.com...

I am not asking you to prove speciation and or whether we came from apes.

I am asking how we got a breeding pair of humans via this evolution method.

As is noted above in the provided link, they didn’t need to make 2 random “mutants” that we’re a completely new genus and species within a single generation.

Can we breed with Apes?

No, we can’t breed with any other living apes.

a reply to: Boadicea

id read that humans were capable of parthenogenesis , not that it was only females that could reproduce, but we were just asexual

we had no sex differentiation , then we developed sex and reproduction and the split

originally posted by: peter vlar
" Yet you believe that this happened not just once, but twice in the same generation and these two male and female chromosomal fusion hominids managed to find each other and mate?"

That’s not what I said and you know it. You’re twisting your misinterpretations and then inserting them into a false claim.

That would have been necessary though for the chromosomal fusion to persist. If it was only present in one parent their offspring couldn't be fertilized due to the mismatched number of chromosomes which couldn't align at the metaphase plate. Do you understand this?

Oh, come on. It is not that hard. The wife would have been a "normal" fish, but (some of the) offspring would have fathers legs. And so on.

Evolution Of Universe

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Boadicea

id read that humans were capable of parthenogenesis , not that it was only females that could reproduce, but we were just asexual

we had no sex differentiation , then we developed sex and reproduction and the split

That's an interesting idea. Now I'm trying to picture what that would look like... if the change would have been sudden or gradual... and what would prompt the change? Perhaps simple human desire/will of some kind?

I was half-listening to a program on TV that was talking about the possibility of human collective consciousness creating some kind of demon creature. The theory went that someone creates a fictional demon creature that terrorizes unfortunate folks who come across it, the story spreads, people believe it, people worry about it, people fear it... and mind becomes matter so-to-speak.

So I'm kind of thinking in those terms now. Perhaps a deep desire/will to "join" hearts and minds evolved into "joint" reproduction as opposed to auto-reproduction?

Now I'll be pondering the possibilities all day!

a reply to: Boadicea

well the idea that we reproduced via parthenogenesis was a hermetic idea
from the different ages of humanity , the mineral the spiritual and the plant

apparently humans were plant people at one time
I remember reading in a book about the history of humanity from a hermetic view point
that humans were once plants and we reproduced via parthenogenesis
this apparently is where the central nervous system comes from.

there was a record of the kings of some ancient culture , and there were statues of the kings in a row and they were statues of tree/plant people.

You also mentioned mind before matter with the creation of a meme
then pushed into the collective conscious of a monster haunting us.

the hermetic view is that of mind before matter.

Maybe there is something more to it

a reply to: cooperton

The only way to maintain that position is to ignore entirely my last two posts or to have purposely opted not to read the information or links. That’s on you, not me.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: cooperton

The only way to maintain that position is to ignore entirely my last two posts or to have purposely opted not to read the information or links. That’s on you, not me.

Stop dodging.

In order for a chromosome change to happen to a population, it would require both a male and a female to have a chromosomal fusion, somehow survive through childbirth and maturity, and then find each other and mate. A 46 chromosome organism can not viably reproduce with a 48 chromosome organism