Evolution and Sex.

It said it was still arranged in an order that he could procreate because the materaials was laid out in order like DNA I read it. reply to: peter vlar

a reply to: peter vlar
Sometimes two different chromosomes grab onto each other and then fail to separate.

I couldn't work out how to quote but that is from your link.

It still states they are two separate Chromosomes but stuck together. Not fused. Not fused mixed up and made different.

They proved nothing more then that. Then they go onto hypothesis that it occurred in a totally different fashion and different way later via their graphs.

An off topic Question For one moment.

Can we crispr those 2 Chromosomes out of an Ape, replace it with that one from a Human and it would be Human?

a reply to: TheSkunk


The chromosomes were fused. If you insist on seeing it your way instead of looking at facts, then enjoy a lifetime of willful ignorance.

originally posted by: TheSkunk
It still states they are two separate Chromosomes but stuck together. Not fused.

Fused means they are stuck together so you're not making any sense here.

Not fused mixed up and made different.

The single fused chromosome is mostly the same as the two separate chromosomes, but not exactly the same. There are some minor differences at the place where fusion happened, so "mixed up and made different" is not very descriptive since it's mostly identical and mostly not mixed up, yet it's still a little different in the middle where the fusion happened.

Maybe this will help:

www.mun.ca...

Robertsonian fusion of ape chromosomes in Homo

Humans have 2n=46 chromosomes, as compared with 2n=48 in all of our other closest relatives, the Great Apes (Chimpanzee, Gorillas, and Orangutans). Whereas Chromosome 2 is a single, large sub-metacentric in humans, the other apes have two smaller, acrocentric chromosomes. Comparison of banding patterns allows these chromosomes to be aligned, and shows that during human evolution the ancestral chromosomes have undergone an end-to-end Robertsonian fusion to form a single larger chromosome. The gene contents of chimp and human chromosomes are substantially identical [note that the bands are conserved]. Molecular inspection of the area in the human 2q1.2~1.4 region shows telomere-like DNA sequences from the chimp chromosomes, as predicted.

originally posted by: TheSkunk
An off topic Question For one moment.

Can we crispr those 2 Chromosomes out of an Ape, replace it with that one from a Human and it would be Human?

No, but it might make interbreeding with the ape possible, I don't know about that. Humans have interbred with other 46 chromosome primates like Neanderthals and Denisovians. I do know one of the reasons humans can't interbreed with other 48 chromosome primates is because of the different number of chromosomes, but just making the chromosome number the same may not be enough for successful interbreeding.

But interestingly, when humans are found with other fused chromosomes, they are still considered human. They would have fertility problems unless they bred with another human with similarly fused chromosomes, which is a rare event which is why our chromosome number is relatively stable, but not perfectly so as this shows.

The 44 Chromosome Man - And What He Reveals About Our Genetic Past

Many people have trouble believing that chromosome number can change and stay changed in a species. Their first thought is often of Down syndrome or the other problems that usually come with missing or extra chromosomes. It can be hard to imagine how a living thing could end up with a new chromosome number without these problems.

And yet it happens all the time in creatures as varied as yeast, corn, butterflies, voles and even mice. And now it has been seen in people.

In a recent article, a doctor in China has identified a man who has 44 chromosomes instead of the usual 46. Except for his different number of chromosomes, this man is perfectly normal in every measurable way.

So other than limiting fertility to others with the same type of fusion, the fusion doesn't seem to have a measurable effect on the man being normal.

I've never had my chromosomes evaluated. I probably have the standard number but I could have fused chromosomes and not know it.

If that man with 44 chromosomes found a woman who also had 44 chromosomes like him and they mated, their offspring would also likely have 44 chromosomes. You asked about incest in your opening post, and even Albert Einstein married his cousin and it appears there's a tendency for this type of chromosome fusion to run in families, see the comment about the parents of the 44 chromosome man being translocation carriers and first cousins:

Can a Quirky Chromosome Create a Second Human Species?

Trickling into the headlines was a case report from 2013 of a 25-year-old healthy Chinese man who has 44 chromosomes because each 14 joins a 15 – a combo not seen before. His parents, both translocation carriers, were first cousins. The Chinese man’s sperm carry 21 autosomes and an X or Y, and he should be fertile – but only with a woman who is similarly chromosomally endowed. Chances are he’ll never find her. But if he does …

FROM SCIENCE TO SCI-FI
The report on the Chinese man with 44 chromosomes ends with: “The aberration can provide material for evolution. … Long term isolation of a group of individuals who are homozygous for a particular Robertsonian translocation chromosome could theoretically lead to the establishment of a new human subspecies having a full genetic complement in 44 chromosomes.”

It might have happened before. Could the 48 chromosomes of a shared ancestor of humans and chimps have branched to yield our 46 chromosomes? Fusion of chimp chromosomes 12 and 13, according to banding patterns, might have generated our larger chromosome 2.

This talks about incest and interbreeding with Neanderthals and Denisovians:
Interbreeding and incest common among early humans, says study

originally posted by: TheSkunk

I don't see how Two or even more animals changed into the exact same different thing. I find this to be a hole in the Theory of Evolution as it seems and improbability that it would happen any of these ways.

Plants have sex.... so there is an example of difference...

Almost all life you see today came after snowball earth of about 600 million years ago. Even a grape vine has about 20% DNA of us humans, so life is all connected, so why would things be so different? We can ask the same thing in why 2 eyes for the vast majority of life past plants, and the answer is the same...

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
There are some minor differences at the place where fusion happened, so "mixed up and made different" is not very descriptive since it's mostly identical and mostly not mixed up, yet it's still a little different in the middle where the fusion happened.

They aren't minor differences, there's multiple genes getting in the way of the theorized fusion site:

Trickling into the headlines was a case report from 2013 of a 25-year-old healthy Chinese man who has 44 chromosomes because each 14 joins a 15 – a combo not seen before. His parents, both translocation carriers, were first cousins. The Chinese man’s sperm carry 21 autosomes and an X or Y, and he should be fertile – but only with a woman who is similarly chromosomally endowed. Chances are he’ll never find her. But if he does …

Given how rare these are, let's say 1 per billion, what are the odds a chromosome fused organism would find another chromosome fused organism to mate with? Not to mention, what are the odds the couple has the same exact two chromosomes fuse together? That would be necessary as well. And then their kids would have to mate with each other. And so would their kid's kids... and so on and so on. It would require a miracle

originally posted by: cooperton
Not to mention, what are the odds the couple has the same exact two chromosomes fuse together? That would be necessary as well. And then their kids would have to mate with each other. And so would their kid's kids... and so on and so on. It would require a miracle

As the linked article said:

"Long term isolation of a group of individuals who are homozygous for a particular Robertsonian translocation chromosome could theoretically lead to the establishment of a new human subspecies having a full genetic complement in 44 chromosomes."

So, are you considering the possibility of long term isolation of a group of related individuals (which genetic history shows happened with early primates)? You may have missed the fact that the 44 chromosome tendency runs in families, so if the family was isolated, the odds the couple has the same exact two chromosomes fuse together is pretty good since that particular anomaly runs in families. Two first cousins married to conceive that 44 chromosome man, and two other first cousins from the same family could mate to produce a mate for him, and then yes I wouldn't be surprised if more incest was involved after that, which again is consistent with long term isolation of a group.

We don't see much long term isolation of tribes or family groups today, so maybe that limits our ability to think about the past, but apparently such long term isolation existed with early primates, see the linked article in my previous post, on the Neanderthals and Denisovians. So it might "take a miracle" or more accurately be highly improbable in today's culture where few families are so isolated, but in the past this was not always the case and thus I don't see it as miraculous for earlier primates.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

So you think the exact same mutation happened in a female and male of that community?

a reply to: TheSkunk

I agree with Arbi

a group of animals in isolation are likely all to develop the same mutation within their isolated population
or a group of humans

the perfect study group would be the indigineous peoples of the sentinnal islands
they havent had any outsiders affect their population

if only scientists could study their genetic make up

originally posted by: TheSkunk
a reply to: Arbitrageur

So you think the exact same mutation happened in a female and male of that community?

Keep this quote in mind from the source I cited:

"His parents, both translocation carriers, were first cousins"

We're not talking about a random mutation here, this man with 44 chromosomes instead of 46 is an anomaly that's the result of mating of two relatives (first cousins) that are translocation carriers, so when they mate that specific 44 chromosome trait can manifest. Your question makes it sound like you are not thinking of a specific translocation, but instead of some random mutation, there is a difference. There are likely others in his extended family who are also translocation carriers. Therefore if his extended family was isolated then it certainly seems possible that a female with the same 44 chromosomes could happen and he could mate with her, but of course families aren't isolated in today's culture so it probably won't happen.

When you consider the probabilities, you have to balance the fact that this is such a rare occurrence it hardly ever happens, against it being an extremely rare occurrence which is unlikely but not impossible, especially with isolated groups of extended families, because this is what observations suggest.

So, remember we are not looking for something that can happen easily, because if that was the case, we'd see it happening all the time and we'd see more divergence in the number of human chromosomes than we see. So sure it's improbable but that's what we'd expect since we don't see human genes changing much like they would if it wasn't improbable. It's certainly not impossible and all the evidence suggests it happened in the past, except going from 48 to 46 chromosomes, not from 46 to 44 chromosomes like could happen if the 44 chromosome man finds a 44 chromosome mate.

Nobody was there to see all the details in how the change from 48 to 46 chromosomes happened, but by studying this man with 44 chromosomes we we can figure out how the 48 to 46 chromosome change may have happened in an isolated group as the researchers suggest, and of course the chromosomes themselves show a pretty clear record of the fusion so we can deduce that part even though we weren't there.

a reply to: sapien82
Yes, islands can make good incubators for evolution, as Darwin himself observed when visiting different Galapagos islands.

L

originally posted by: TheSkunk
a reply to: Arbitrageur

So you think the exact same mutation happened in a female and male of that community?
I can can get you to come down tomorrow and I’ll try
M

looll

Geological isolation leads to a reduction in genetic diversity. The types or mutations that occur depend on the length of isolation and the size of the group that’s been isolated.

1 million years ago the Congo River was born. A consequence of this was it geographically isolated the Chimpanzee populations. The smaller group stuck south of the Congo (chimpanzees, Bonobos, gorillas.... they

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
You may have missed the fact that the 44 chromosome tendency runs in families

Wishful thinking.

From what I read there is only 1 person ever to be found with 44 chromosomes. To get a chromosomal fusion, the same exact 14-15 fusion, and also have those two be in the same location is a super low probability event. Let's call it a miracle. Remember, that all species must have undergone this super low probability event too, because chromosome diversity is vastly different even among mammals. If they were generated by random mutations, they too would have had to undergo many of these successful chromosomal fusion scenarios.

"Long term isolation of a group of individuals who are homozygous for a particular Robertsonian translocation chromosome could theoretically lead to the establishment of a new human subspecies having a full genetic complement in 44 chromosomes."

Also I want to emphasize that we are not even certain they could have a fertile offspring, which is why they say "theoretically". It is pure speculation.

a reply to: cooperton

yet here we are

, I dont think its god , or aliens

so what is the alternative , or are we just faced with something like evolution theory but we just dont have all the answers yet

How else can this be explained sans deity or xenobiology

what if DNA itself evolves ?

what if DNA with 44 chromosomes is already naturally occuring in nature and has then found its way into humans and other species


isnt that what geneticists are saying that DNA was naturally occurring as well as RNA that makes DNA
and we have modern DNA as its evolved and changed over billions of years

How do I delete this thread and remove my profile from ATS as I did not come here for snide personal attacks and admin ganging up on people?



I can can get you to come down tomorrow and I’ll try What is this you added to my quote?

originally posted by: TheSkunk
How do I delete this thread and remove my profile from ATS as I did not come here for snide personal attacks and admin ganging up on people?

1 you can’t delete the thread

2 you can’t delete your profile

3 I have serious doubts that the mods have singled you out specifically for their own amusement.

I can can get you to come down tomorrow and I’ll try What is this you added to my quote?

It was a bizarre and rando typo. Downside of multitasking sometimes.


At the end of the day though, none of your complaints about this threads carry much weight and you haven’t attempted to discuss the facts I pointed out to you, you get upset and claim that you’re being ganged up on. If you weren’t prepared to have an open dialogue, you shouldn’t be posting on a forum filled with people from at least 6 continents and a multitude of thoughts and ideas on the subject. If you just want an echo chamber you can always open up your own message board and moderate it so that nothing is allowed to post unless It fits you’re very narrow criteria. If you’re not willing to do that, then you need to play by the rules on the forums you do visit. It’s not a hard concept to grab. Unless of course you skipped the FAQ or is it that you don’t feel they apply to you?

a reply to: peter vlar

Your now attacking me because you say you made a random mistake and I have over reacted, but you put lool straight after, so I Hardly think it was a random Typo.

It is not that I have disagreed. I think I have hardly shown any emotion at all to be honest.

You seem to be the guys all upset that your "Theory" of evolution is being questioned.

Let us remember a Theory is just that. A Theory.

It means it is unproven. And is unproven in Science.

Which means your giving me an opinion on an opinion of someone else.

I know you both are not geneticists, and if you are your opinion has been formed by someone elses opinion that this is the right way.

44 Chromosome Guy does not prove anything as obviously his mutation has not changed species? Has it?

This is why I can see that his Chromosonal Fusion is not in any shape or form the same as what happened in trans specization.

Just because you don't understand my question. Answer it with completely irrelevant information and retort with crudeness. Does not mean you are correct.

How could possibly get an Male and Female breeding Pair of animals and particularly large single child animals that have both changed species?

As I see it. It could only happen through a brother and sister. I think the offspring would come from the same one animal.

I just find it highly unlikely because of the inter breeding issues we have seen and why in spots where these transitions are meant to occur we find no evidence of the many failed offspring that would have had mutations that did not succeed or were detrimental. I believe since this mutation to change a whole species is so great there should be much more evidence of the transition. Especially the failures and trapped isolated populations.

I don't have a problem with evolution I just like to know the truth not accept theories as facts.

I also don't need to resort to personal attacks as you have just done a second time to win an arguement I am not in.

If you have got nothing more to add without bringing the personal attacks into it maybe your the issue.

The truth seems to be chemical however you interpret that, perhaps mixed with intellectual attraction, and perhaps wit and perhaps cleavage on both sides. It is timing, in my opinion. You are a multi-dimensional entity jumping to not your tune, but also to your time...so veer off - make it your path.



Cold as ice.