New Public School approach

How is it that tax dollars are taken at "gunpoint" so a very small group of "anti-god" biggots can spew their vile vommit on our children? Too many have removed there children from public schools becuase the schools didn't teach values or really much of anything except "social engineering" BS.

Make the all powerful "OZ" edu-crates accountable. Stop paying school taxes until they change or make congress provide vouchers.

Don't just "take-it" and move on. Take back our schools............

Originally posted by mwm1331
wrong interepid, America does not belobng to everyone, it does not for example belong to you, you are not American. America belongs to Americans

Well, duh!

Originally posted by DrHoracid
How is it that tax dollars are taken at "gunpoint" so a very small group of "anti-god" biggots can spew their vile vommit on our children? Too many have removed there children from public schools becuase the schools didn't teach values or really much of anything except "social engineering" BS.

Make the all powerful "OZ" edu-crates accountable. Stop paying school taxes until they change or make congress provide vouchers.

Don't just "take-it" and move on. Take back our schools............

I don't know Doc.
How is it that my husband's tax money can be taken from him, to provide medical care for someone else's snotty nosed kid to see a doctor and learn that it's a cold, but when I ask for help, well, it's too bad, tough luck, sorry we can't help you....even when I can prove it on paper that we can't even afford the monthly insurance payment and retain the roof over our heads, food on the table, transportation to work, ect..let alone the additional costs. And, it's quite possible the my condition might deteriorate to the point where I can no longer walk!!

I'm sick of the "christian" bickering of their rights being so horribly violated.

Originally posted by dawnstar
I don't know Doc.
How is it that my husband's tax money can be taken from him, to provide medical care for someone else's snotty nosed kid to see a doctor and learn that it's a cold, but when I ask for help, well, it's too bad, tough luck, sorry we can't help you....even when I can prove it on paper that we can't even afford the monthly insurance payment and retain the roof over our heads, food on the table, transportation to work, ect..let alone the additional costs. And, it's quite possible the my condition might deteriorate to the point where I can no longer walk!!

I'm sick of the "christian" bickering of their rights being so horribly violated.

I agree with all you said until the last line. Christian values are being taken away by thieves in black ropes almost daily. Not through the congress as required by the constitution, but by cowards called "judges" that don't have the authority. If you look they are the same ones stealing you money to give to someone elses sick kids............

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Christian values are being taken away by thieves in black ropes almost daily.

Doc, only you can take away your values. Noone is stripping you of them. Only you can change what you believe to be the right way to treat your fellow man. Dont let others dictate your beliefs. If I did that, I would still be supporting Bush

the bible tells you to pray without ceasing, so obviously, it's possible to carry on your life, work, go to school, function in society without making a big scene!!! God, the Christians in Rome managed!!
you can pray without being noticed.
no one can take that from you, how, can they prevent your mind from thinking?

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
marg says:


Marg, Mr. Horacid and Mr. Nygdan and Mr. Intrepid and I are having a grownup conversation here.

Hum......may be you all should start your own conspiracy site, all in the name of religion and fundamentalism.

That hardly seems warranted. 'Drhoracid' is obviously a queer type of fundamentalist by intrepid myself and Off_the_Street most certainly are not.

By the way the ATS forums is for everybody not only some...........so I may take it as an isult.

I think you may have taken his statement the wrong way. He merely interpreted your original comment as somewhat childish and perhaps too off the cuff and simply wants to try and keep the discussion factual. No one's saying 'marg leave the thread you child' certainly.

Originally posted by Odd
just because some of you are not Christians does not mean that others do not have the right to worship as they choose. For all your posturing and claims of loving freedom, you sure do spend a lot of time telling people that they ought not to be able to raise their kids how they bloody well please.

That most certainly is not what is happening here. It is merely requested that public schools remain secular. Secular schools do not interfere with religious education and are certainly not 'oppressing' the religious.

Also, I don't even think that anyone here advocating that position is infact not a christian.

so Christians are stupid, and the religion should be banned?
how can you call yourself a lover of freedom, or of America, when you obviously believe that the only way is your own?

It really does seem like you are the 'non lover' of freedom who wants to control everyone else. No one is making the ridiculous claims that you are attributing to them. You are told 'why should public schools be forced to teach kids christianity' and you come out with 'you hate christians and want to destroy them'.

james the lesser
Anyways, George Washington was a Mason, not a christian. So there goes founded on christian values

Was that intended as a joke and I misunderstood it? The masons were started by christians, in highly christian cultures and generally seem to act like a christian group, although they apparently allow non christians in it.

I would agree tho that america is not a 'christian country', its government is, and was intended to be, secular, by most of the founders themselves. They created a republic, not a theocracy.

drhoracid
Your right and teaching so called "multi-culturalisim" which is basically every religion other than Christianity

Again, more untruth and distortion from you. Historical studies that explain the basic beleifs of other religions are not teaching other religions and are not limiting christianity, any more than explaining what lead to protestant and catholic warfare in europe is endorsing either of those religions and slamming greek orthodoxy.

Someone please tell the the "HARM" is allowing parents to send their kids to a "values" based school?

Using public money to teach religion.

How is it that tax dollars are taken at "gunpoint" so a very small group of "anti-god" biggots can spew their vile vommit on our children?

Hmm, i had suspected that you were also 'anti tax' and in the lines of the anti-tax posses. Its quite interesting really. Regardless tho, since the schools are secular, and not 'anti-christian', the statement above is pointless.

Christian values are being taken away by thieves in black ropes almost daily.

More hysteria, and rather hypocritical, since the religious right is also backing their own judicial activists. Besides, judges don't legislate morality, they merely decide what is and what is not legal. They have never made a decision that prohibts the free exercise of the christian religion.

Nygdan,

Yes, after I read it again I understood the meaning I know that at least you and intrepid do not play games.

Actually I did post a more comprehensive view on the subject on the same page.

I though the thread has some merit after Dr. Horacid strong fundamentalist views but that is not what he wants, he wants debate on good and evil.

Thanks Nygdan.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I would agree tho that america is not a 'christian country', its government is, and was intended to be, secular, by most of the founders themselves. They created a republic, not a theocracy.

 

drhoracid
Your right and teaching so called "multi-culturalisim" which is basically every religion other than Christianity

Again, more untruth and distortion from you. Historical studies that explain the basic beleifs of other religions are not teaching other religions and are not limiting christianity, any more than explaining what lead to protestant and catholic warfare in europe is endorsing either of those religions and slamming greek orthodoxy.

Someone please tell the the "HARM" is allowing parents to send their kids to a "values" based school?

Using public money to teach religion.

Point-1-The US was never founded to be "secular" do some "REAL" history research.

Point-2-There are many pending lawsuites demanding that any christian activity be stopped in public schools. There are a vast number of news stories to that effect. I am not talking about history...I am talking about indoctination by liberal agendas in public schools.

Part-3-It is "Public" money, it belongs to all the people not just a few anti-religion biggots. I am not asking for "religion schools, only schools that "allow" christian values. Christianity classes are not the issue, only tollerance of those who practice it openly. They should not be required to HIDE their faith of leave it at the school door.

Public schools are "pushing" tolerance of almost everything, yet, killing anything to do with God at every turn.

hmmm......that's funny.....
we have a new paper (freebie) that is being published in our area that is left at the laundrymat that I go to.

Nice christian values expressed in it and all, ya know...
well, seem that there is an advertisement in it for after-school bible study classes at one of our elementary schools....

gee, how can that be?

Public schools are funded by all taxpayers, not just Christian ones. NOT teaching or advocating Christianity is not an infringement on any Christian's freedom of religion, because nothing is stopping them from worshipping as private individuals. It would however be a major infringement on the religious freedom of students, if schools were to take it upon themselves to advance the beliefs or doctrines of their personal religion, since all of the students wouln't share the same religious faith.

As for vouchers, that would only allow the government a means by which they could start dictating the private school's policies and curriculm. Gradually, they would just close down or become what the public school system is now.
I think it would make more sense to make school tuition 100% tax-deductible, so that parents sending their kids to a private school only had to pay for the cost of their child's education, instead of both the tuition and taxes that go to public schools, which their kids don't attend.

As to the "Separation of Church and State" issue:

The notion that the Establishment Clause of the Constitution was intended to protect religion from government, but not government from religion is unfounded and untrue. The author of the amendment, James Madison, made it very clear that the intention of the clause was to provide a needed barrier between church and state, so as to prevent the corruption of either one by the other.

Madison's original proposal for a bill of rights provision concerning religion read: ''The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' The language was altered in the House to read: ''Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or to prevent the free exercise thereof, or to infringe the rights of conscience.'' In the Senate, the section adopted read: ''Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith, or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion, . . .'' It was in the conference committee of the two bodies, chaired by Madison, that the present language was written.

Since James Madison was the primary author of, not only the Establishment Clause, but also our Constitution, the best source from which to determine the original intent of the First Amendment, would be Madison himself.

The following document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell Rives, a biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in Madison's hand sometime between 1817 and 1832. What follows is that part of the "Detached Memoranda" devoted to the subject of religious liberty:

The danger of silent accumulations & encroachments by Ecclesiastical Bodies have not sufficiently engaged attention in the U.S. They have the noble merit of first unshackling the conscience from persecuting laws, and of establishing among religious Seas a legal equality. If some of the States have not embraced this just and this truly Xn principle in its proper latitude, all of them present examples by which the most enlightened States of the old world may be instructed; and there is one State at least, Virginia, where religious liberty is placed on its true foundation and is defined in its full latitude. The general principle is contained in her declaration of rights, prefixed to her Constitution: but it is unfolded and defined, in its precise extent, in the act of the Legislature, usually named the Religious Bill, which passed into a law in the year 1786. Here the separation between the authority of human laws, and the natural rights of Man excepted from the grant on which all political authority is founded, is traced as distinctly as words can admit, and the limits to this authority established with as much solemnity as the forms of legislation can express.
The law has the further advantage of having been the result of a formal appeal to the sense of the Community and a deliberate sanction of a vast majority, comprizing every sect of Christians in the State. This act is a true standard of Religious liberty: its principle the great barrier agst usurpations on the rights of conscience. As long as it is respected & no longer, these will be safe. Every provision for them short of this principle, will be found to leave crevices at least thro' which bigotry may introduce persecution; a monster, that feeding & thriving on its own venom, gradually swells to a size and strength overwhelming all laws divine & human....
(you can find the rest of the "Detached Memorandum" here)

If you don't want to bother with reading the rest of the above article, here are a couple more of his quotes on this subject:

"[I]t is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties....Who does not see that the same authority which
can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of
Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence
only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment
in all cases whatsoever?"
-From the "Memorial and Remonstrance," 1785

“The Constitution of the U.S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion."
-"Detached Memoranda"

"In the Papal System, Government and Religion are in a manner consolidated, & that is found to be the worst of
Govts. In most of the Govts. of the old world, the legal establishment of a particular religion and without or with
very little toleration of others makes a part of the Political and Civil organization and there are few of the most
enlightened judges who will maintain that the system has been favorable either to Religion or to Govt."
-Letter to Jasper Adams, 1832-1833

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Christian values are being taken away by thieves in black ropes almost daily. Not through the congress as required by the constitution, but by cowards called "judges" that don't have the authority.

Congress doesn't have that authority either!! I don't know what Constitution you were reading, but NOWHERE does mine say any government agency has the right or ability to remove my values or beliefs.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by DrHoracid

Originally posted by intrepid
What about the rest of that post Doc, you know, the part you didn't quote?

Keep missing that for some reason.

One, no seperation ask and answered

Two funding ask and answered

Three ask and answered.

OK, I see I have to get the finger puppets out to point you in the direction you are conveniently missing. Will you answer this? Just once?

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by DrHoracid
The absence of religion in the schools I pay for is a violation of "MY" right of religion. "The congress shall make no law respecting religion"

Removing prayer from the schools is a 'state" support of religion.

Well, if you put it that way, I guess we'll just put everybody's rights on the shelf so you can have yours.

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Again the 'tryany" of the minority is ruining "my" america. The "good" of the one does no outweight the "rights" of the many.

What's that I'm smelling here Doc? Could it be hypocrisy?

You stated two different reasonings here, to whatever suited you at the time. Don't worry though, I've got money on you ignoring this conundrum again.

BTW, when I Googled "school budget cuts" I was wondering why I got 2.7 million hits. Seems funny considering the previous data, don't you think?

I'm home now, so I can concentrate on this.

I win, I win, I win. You totally ignored my post.

Thanks for showing that you have no position, just hollow words.

You ignored this 3 times, that leads me to believe you're a................... .

Nygdan, don't tell christians that, they will have to punish you for it. Didn't you know Masons are evil satan worshipping heathens that need to be killed?(go to secret societies, will find plenty of good wholesome christians calling Masons evil satan worshipping baby killers)

Also, unless you teach Wicca, Islam, Budda, Hindu, and Judaism, you can't teach christianity.

And Kid, I wasn't attacking you, I just simply stated that christian schools teach Earth is 6,000 years old, flood created Grand Canyon, and fossils were planted by satan as science. Hell, Dwayne Gish, leader of the ICR fought to get this taught in public schools and won in Georgia. They were actually teaching this to school kids as science and fact until the courts over turned it.

Originally posted by marg6043
he wants debate on good and evil.

Hmm, good vs evil, hmm, I 'm going to go with evil, because evil allways wins over good, 'because good is dumb'

drhoracid
-The US was never founded to be "secular" do some "REAL" history research.

It is you who needs to do some reseach. The Founders were more religious than some people state, but they did not found a christian government, they founded a secular state and didn't do anything to contradict that.

There are a vast number of news stories to that effect

Irrelevant. There are also suits to pay blacks reparations but that doesn't mean that they've been paid it.

It is "Public" money, it belongs to all the people not just a few anti-religion biggots

Hence the need for it to be used in a secular manner, rather than a religious manner.

They should not be required to HIDE their faith of leave it at the school door.

Sicne they are not, there is no actual issue here.

Public schools are "pushing" tolerance of almost everything[/'quote]
Ah, so because public schools don't let student go out fag bashing or whatnot then they are somehow anti-christian? 'Tolerance' means tolerance for everyone, it not in and of itself anti-christian to expect students to tolerate unchristian behaviour in society and their classmates.

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Again the 'tryany" of the minority is ruining "my" america. The "good" of the one does no outweight the "rights" of the many.

The absence of religion in the schools I pay for is a violation of "MY" right of religion. "The congress shall make no law respecting religion"

Removing prayer from the schools is a 'state" support of religion.

BTW- 06/21/00- Updated 09:51 AM ET, Source: USATODAY/Gallup/CNN poll. Religion in schools. Seventy-one percent of Americans say the Bible should be used in classes. ...

The three major religions Christianity, Judaisim, and even Islam all use the same source for the ten commandments.


[edit on 7-3-2005 by DrHoracid]

Blah, blah, blah. Send your kid to a Catholic school if you want religion in school - or some other type of religiously themed school. That's what those types of schools are there for anyways - the diehards.

Also, I find it interesting that you believe in polls. Take a class on Statistics - they can be easily manipulated and they aren't the most accurate way to get peoples' opinions. Considering that the people used in polls are only a specific cross-section of the US (usually not very culturally or religiously diverse) - and usually only about 1000 people are polled. How the hell are those one thousand opinions supposed to be the opinions of 300 million+ people?

[edit on 3-8-2005 by EmbryonicEssence]

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Next, school funding has gone up by trillions of dollars in the last 20 years. There was no funding "cut".

[edit on 7-3-2005 by DrHoracid]

Haha, trillions? Where are you getting your numbers from? If school funding was in the trillions, I think everyone would have a pretty damn good education. Military funding is in the trillions, school funding is not.

Originally posted by intrepid
I win, I win, I win. You totally ignored my post.

Thanks for showing that you have no position, just hollow words.

You ignored this 3 times, that leads me to believe you're a...................

.

OK there Trepie, perhaps it is you that has missed the issue here. Just what have I ignored? How many ways do you want me to try to get through to you.

If an 'anti-religion" biggot can sue to take prayer out of schools then the "majority" can replace the black robed scum that "made up" the law to enforce such lunacy.

I would think you should work on YOUR comunication skills if you think I ignored your questions. So humor my obviously inept reasoning and restate your questions.

Originally posted by DrHoracid
I would think you should work on YOUR comunication skills if you think I ignored your questions. So humor my obviously inept reasoning and restate your questions.

Once again with the finger puppets. This time I'll edit out the unnecessary words, then maybe you'll get it.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by DrHoracid
The absence of religion in the schools I pay for is a violation of "MY" right of religion.

Well, if you put it that way, I guess we'll just put everybody's rights on the shelf so you can have yours.

Originally posted by DrHoracid
The "good" of the one does no outweight the "rights" of the many.

What's that I'm smelling here Doc? Could it be hypocrisy?

Do you see the hypocracy of the 2 statement? They are in conflict, it's all about you.

[edit on 9-3-2005 by intrepid]

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by DrHoracid
I would think you should work on YOUR comunication skills if you think I ignored your questions. So humor my obviously inept reasoning and restate your questions.

Once again with the finger puppets. This time I'll edit out the unnecessary words, then maybe you'll get it.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by DrHoracid
The absence of religion in the schools I pay for is a violation of "MY" right of religion.

Well, if you put it that way, I guess we'll just put everybody's rights on the shelf so you can have yours.

Originally posted by DrHoracid
The "good" of the one does no outweight the "rights" of the many.

What's that I'm smelling here Doc? Could it be hypocrisy?

Do you see the hypocracy of the 2 statement? They are in conflict, it's all about you.

[edit on 9-3-2005 by intrepid]

Ok, now I get your 'slant" on the issue. I'll make it easier for a liberlized mind.

PART-1 If a single "anti-religion" biggot can sue to take any reference to God out of public schools then that is a violation of "My" right to free exercise of religion the way "I" see fit. Ratio is 1 to 1. But my views represent at least 71% of amreican based on a even a CNN poll. Hence the second statement......the good of the one (the anti-god) biggot does not outweight the rights of the many (pro-god) americans.

Point of extreme importance here..........america is a representative republic who places "trust" in the hands of those representatives they elect. Not a few tyrants in black ropes to rewrite the law from the bench. The juduciary has become the "supreme" ruler of the land but does not have the authority to do so under the US constitution.

If the "people" want GOD out of schools then it should be done with legislation not tyranical rulings from the judiciary.

If the "secular" minority of this nation want to deny God then do so. If they want to try to remove God from public schools or anywhere else then elect representatives to make laws to do so. The courts do not have the authority to make law............

If the american congress won't remove the tyrants then "the" people will elect those that will remove the tyrants. GW, 55 senators, and a majority in the house is just a beginning. It will take time to reverse 40 years of liberal "stacking" of the judiciary to "rule" on things they can't pass with legislation. Liberalisim has never passed the "smell" test of the people, the only "power" it has is to load up the black robed tyrants to "rule" for them.............

American civic's 101...............