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Jesus' Brothers

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posted on May, 13 2005 @ 07:29 PM
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The Greek "heos hou" does not imply a reversal (edit: nor does it imply cessation nor continuation) regardless of the interpretation an english translation. It only refers to events up to a point in time. The verse does not mention nor does it imply the occurance of any event after the point in time.

Brother and brethren do not always refer to siblings; inversely, they do not always refer to non-sibling relatives.


[edit on 13-5-2005 by Raphael_UO]




posted on May, 13 2005 @ 08:58 PM
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Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?


Wow, how did I miss this one? Your proofs are better sir. Hats off to you.



You have voted jake1997 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.


Brilliant my friend, brilliant! I forgot about Galatians. That answers the James question on the other thread too. 2 for 1, nice work.

[edit on 13-5-2005 by saint4God]



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 09:39 AM
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In the time of Jeus, you have to remeber they used the title of "mother" Sister" and "brother" very loosely. Jesus called everyone his brothers and sisters. John called Mary his mother. The other apostles called Mary their mother. So, why take this specific Biblical reference as truly meaning blood brothers and sisters. Jesus taught that we are all borthers and sisters and that God is the Father of all.

In the Catholic religion, yes Mary is honored (NOT WORSHIPED!!!). We believe in the Immaculate Conception. Mary was born with out original sin. She was the chosen Mother of Jesus, haven't you seen the Passion of Christ? It shows Mary was connected to Jesus, there were noooo siblings around. And this movie was not based on the Bible folks, it was based on the visions of a woman who lived a few hundred years ago. She saw the last 12 hours of Christ's life thru visions and the Catholic church has deamed them as legit.

Aside from that, here is some common sense. If God chose to send his ONLY begotten son down to us, tohave him birthed and raised by a human, then why would he pick just any human? I think that God would have chosen a VERY special woman for this job, and he did::::MARY.

We call her Mary, the VIRGIN mother of GOd, and I know in my heart that she was a Vrigin all her life (although not good grounds for a debate te he). Think of her as a nun if you want. They do not fornicate with men because they are symbollically married to God instead. Why the heck would Mary have other kids with Joseph? It just doens;t make any sense at all. She was an extraordinary person, hand chosen by God to endure much pain and hardships, hand chosen by God to be the Mother of Jesus Christ.

Just makes sense to me I guess. And there have been visions and miracels involving Mary. Why not look up the Miracle of Fatima, the three children of Fatima too?

How do you explain the unexplainable? Why is it that Mary is so often the subject of debate? Accept her for what she is. Why not give the woman some credit here?!?!

[edit on 14-5-2005 by seraph5]



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by seraph5
In the time of Jeus, you have to remeber they used the title of "mother" Sister" and "brother" very loosely. Jesus called everyone his brothers and sisters.

I covered this in my last post with scripture. Reasoning wont really help it any


In the Catholic religion, yes Mary is honored (NOT WORSHIPED!!!). We believe in the Immaculate Conception. Mary was born with out original sin.

This is not in the bible. See above


She was the chosen Mother of Jesus, haven't you seen the Passion of Christ? It shows Mary was connected to Jesus, there were noooo siblings around. And this movie was not based on the Bible folks, it was based on the visions of a woman who lived a few hundred years ago. She saw the last 12 hours of Christ's life thru visions and the Catholic church has deamed them as legit.
Ok, so the bible is wrong? and this vision is right?
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


Aside from that, here is some common sense. If God chose to send his ONLY begotten son down to us, tohave him birthed and raised by a human, then why would he pick just any human? I think that God would have chosen a VERY special woman for this job, and he did::::MARY.

Mary was blessed because she was chosen. She was not chosen because she was blessed.


We call her Mary, the VIRGIN mother of GOd, and I know in my heart that she was a Vrigin all her life (although not good grounds for a debate te he).

Again, see my last post. If it is different then the bible, its a lie.



Think of her as a nun if you want. They do not fornicate with men because they are symbollically married to God instead. Why the heck would Mary have other kids with Joseph? It just doens;t make any sense at all. She was an extraordinary person, hand chosen by God to endure much pain and hardships, hand chosen by God to be the Mother of Jesus Christ.
Im sorry you were mislead like this. So was I. It took 4 years after someone told me the truth of things before I finally came around. It didnt happen until I actually started reading the bible for myself.

Read the bible or others will continually mislead you



Just makes sense to me I guess. And there have been visions and miracels involving Mary. Why not look up the Miracle of Fatima, the three children of Fatima too?

Read your bible. If you dont, you will be mislead by others.


How do you explain the unexplainable? Why is it that Mary is so often the subject of debate? Accept her for what she is. Why not give the woman some credit here?!?!

God gets all the credit. Not mary.
Its funny you should say to accept her for who she is.
Please read my last post. It shows in the bible that mary had sex and mary had at least 3 kids.



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 05:52 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997

Originally posted by seraph5
In the time of Jeus, you have to remeber they used the title of "mother" Sister" and "brother" very loosely. Jesus called everyone his brothers and sisters.

I covered this in my last post with scripture. Reasoning wont really help it any


In the Catholic religion, yes Mary is honored (NOT WORSHIPED!!!). We believe in the Immaculate Conception. Mary was born with out original sin.

This is not in the bible. See above


She was the chosen Mother of Jesus, haven't you seen the Passion of Christ? It shows Mary was connected to Jesus, there were noooo siblings around. And this movie was not based on the Bible folks, it was based on the visions of a woman who lived a few hundred years ago. She saw the last 12 hours of Christ's life thru visions and the Catholic church has deamed them as legit.
Ok, so the bible is wrong? and this vision is right?
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


Aside from that, here is some common sense. If God chose to send his ONLY begotten son down to us, tohave him birthed and raised by a human, then why would he pick just any human? I think that God would have chosen a VERY special woman for this job, and he did::::MARY.

Mary was blessed because she was chosen. She was not chosen because she was blessed.


We call her Mary, the VIRGIN mother of GOd, and I know in my heart that she was a Vrigin all her life (although not good grounds for a debate te he).

Again, see my last post. If it is different then the bible, its a lie.



Think of her as a nun if you want. They do not fornicate with men because they are symbollically married to God instead. Why the heck would Mary have other kids with Joseph? It just doens;t make any sense at all. She was an extraordinary person, hand chosen by God to endure much pain and hardships, hand chosen by God to be the Mother of Jesus Christ.
Im sorry you were mislead like this. So was I. It took 4 years after someone told me the truth of things before I finally came around. It didnt happen until I actually started reading the bible for myself.

Read the bible or others will continually mislead you



Just makes sense to me I guess. And there have been visions and miracels involving Mary. Why not look up the Miracle of Fatima, the three children of Fatima too?

Read your bible. If you dont, you will be mislead by others.


How do you explain the unexplainable? Why is it that Mary is so often the subject of debate? Accept her for what she is. Why not give the woman some credit here?!?!

God gets all the credit. Not mary.
Its funny you should say to accept her for who she is.
Please read my last post. It shows in the bible that mary had sex and mary had at least 3 kids.




Okay, I have read your last posts, and it really doesn't sway me. Sorry. I BELIEVE THAT MARY WAS A VIRGIN ALL OF HER LIFE, THAT SHE WAS BROUGHT INTO HEAVEN BODY AND SOUL, THAT SHE WAS BORN WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. And if I am wrong, so be it.

There is nothing anyone can show me or tell me that can make me stop believeing this, and I am not usually a close minded person, but in this case I am completely unmoving.

To tell you, the word used to mean "brother" in the Bible's original Greek was "adelphos" which can also mean relative, cousin, or kinsman as well as siblings. In the Bible, referencing the father indicated close relations. Jesus is referred to as the son of Joseph and the son of Mary, but no one else in the Bible is ever called the son or daughter of Joseph or Mary. The Bible does not call James the brother of Jesus and the son of Mary and not just the son of Mary. Mary was a very common name in that time too. So, when Mark 15:40 mentions Mary the mother of James, this could have rightly been another Mary and not the Mary of Jesus.

The original four Gospels were written in the GREEK language, not the Queen's English that's in the King James Version.

In the old testament, Genesis 11:27 says that Abram and Haran were brothers, son of Terah. Lot was the son and Haran and thus the NEPHEW of Abram, who is later called Abraham by God. In Genesis 14:14 and 14:16 in the King James Version of the Bible, they refer to Lot as the BROTHER of Abraham. The Greek word used in the original version was again "adelphos". A wrod that denoted a nephew-uncle relationship was unavailable in ancient Hebrew or Greek. So the alternate of Brother (adelphos in Greek) is used, and Lot was actually Abrahams' nephew.

If the Bible used the term brother to refer to a nephew in one instance, then why not in another instance. Why can't the "adelphoi" or brothers of Jesus be his relatives, cousins or other family members? Why use the word in a restrictive way in the new testament and not in the old?

Also, Mary was given to John, to take care of her, by Jesus himself. Why would he do that if Jesus had literal brothers and sisters? Only if Mary were alone would Jesus worry about her enough to say what he did to John.And where were these "brothers" during the crucifixtion? The bible mentions John the Apostle, but no other male relatives or even friends.



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by jake1997
Mary was blessed because she was chosen. She was not chosen because she was blessed.




Oh, I almost forgot, when the archangel Gabriel addressed Mary in the first chapter of Luke's Gospel, he said "Hail Mary, full of grace." She was full of grace because of the Immaculate Conception, a divine gift from God. He gave this to her freely, so she could provide a worthy, spotless, and pure human nature for Jesus.



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 09:14 PM
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So when you are saved by the grace of Christ, is this because you are immaculate and a virgin forever?

This is curious


------------------


Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?






Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.


Either you believe a lie, or your calling God a liar in those two verses, plus the one in my sig...

I will leave you alone on this from here. It is clear now for anyone who is objective



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 09:49 PM
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Wellllll, as my last thought, I just want to point out that I think I have shown that not all of the translations in the Bible from Greek to English are entirely correct. Words may have different meanings, or if used in a different context may mean something different there.


You know Jake 1997 that I am NOT calling God a liar. Just because you do not seem to think any of my arguments are valid, does not make me wrong. I have never once said God is lying. I think that I am being the more openminded person here. However, you seem fixed on only taking what is written in the Bible, the BIble which mind you has been translated many times( if you don't believe that there could be a loss of meanings in the words, look it up) at face value. And, No questions on the accuracey of translation. When it comes down to the interpretation of just a few words, we need to be sure these words have been translated correctly, don't you agree? You did say in another thread that this version of the Bible is very close to the real scritptures, however, I have heard differently.


What it comes down to is that I am a Catholic with a fixed set of beliefs and you are a Christian with a fixed set of beliefs. I applaud both of us for not backing down in this discussion, we are obviously both very determined and strong in our religion. So thank you for the good debate, although I feel we really didn't get anywhere :bash:. It was enjoyable.



posted on May, 14 2005 @ 09:58 PM
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LOL
ok

I was done but I came back in hopes of offering some future idea that we could agree on.
It is a good thing to be firm in ones beliefs. Its good because at least we both know that there is a God and we DO need Him.



I agree that there are several possible meanings for the word brother.
I dont agree here because of the way its used. Its just not logical. To assume its cousins is funny to me because of the rest of the sentence



[edit on 14-5-2005 by jake1997]



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