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Did Bob Lazar really discover Element 115?

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posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 01:30 PM
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originally posted by: Archivalist
Fact: Lazar made a claim about a specific isotope of 115, not 115, in general.
[citation needed] What is your source for Bob talking about specific Isotopes? I've heard him mention element 115 and the island of stability but I don't remembering him saying anything about specific isotopes. He said elements as heavy as 115 could not be synthesized on Earth and had to be produced naturally near heavy stars, but this explanation goes against what we know about physics and how heavy elements are naturally produced. Stars can produce elements as heavy as Iron if the stars are massive enough, but to make elements heavier than Iron in a natural process requires a supernova, which can happen to any star massive enough and since we have elements heavier than iron on Earth, the Earth must have remnants of a supernova. So the whole claim about naturally occurring in some places but not others doesn't make much sense.

Element 115 and the Credibility of Bob Lazar's Claims

Unfortunately, the very method of his apparent vindication - that element 115 had finally been created - directly contradicts a key claim that Bob Lazar made: Ununpentium cannot be synthesized in a lab. That it must be found in naturally occurring deposits that can only be made in high-mass star systems.

This itself makes no sense. Stars during their normal life produce nothing heavier than iron because everything heavier than iron takes more energy than it gives up in the fusion process. It’s only in supernova explosions that you get heavier elements, including the ones with very short half-lives like probably ununpentium, which means that if there’s a stable isotope, it should be everywhere because the entirety of our galaxy has been seeded by supernova explosions by this point in time...

Nothing about his story checks out. Nothing he said about ununpentium checks out, other than it exists, but even embedded within the validation of ununpentium’s existence is a refutation of Bob Lazar’s story: He said it couldn’t be manufactured.




For Lazar to have known this in 1980's-1990's would be extremely impressive knowledge, given that the theorized stable version has never been created, yet real chemists believe it is potentially possible, as of the 2000's.

Lazar made a very, very, very good and specific guess/prediction, beyond just saying. "Oh it was element 169, blah blah blah."
Maybe he read the issue of Scientific American that talked about it?

Looking at the Bob Lazar story from the perspective of 2018

Many people claimed that Lazar had inside info about Element 115 before it was actually synthesized. Well, no. Lazar’s main claim about Element 115 was that it was stable, which amazed folks. But here’s the thing….that concept is really old news. I have a 1969 article from Scientific American with a cool 3D graph showing an “island of stability” around 114. This was also repeated in my undergrad physics textbook. But maybe most interesting is an article (“Creating Superheavy Elements” by Armbruster and Munzenberg) published in Scientific American again talking about a potential island of stability around 114. The article’s date? May 1989, the same month Lazar began his interviews with KLAS TV in Las Vegas. Yeah, probably just a coincidence.


By the way that link is a good article that takes apart many claims people make in support of Lazar, and it even explains what Lazar took John Lear and Gene Huff to see over Groom Lake though it's hard to confirm that part of the explanation, but he seems pretty confident he knows what they saw. According to the article, what kept Bob out of jail was that he lied to John and Gene about what they were looking at, and if he had told them the truth then he might have been looking at some serious jail time.


originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Archivalist

Hasn’t this island of stability been theorized since way before the 80s or 90s?
According to the real physicist cited above, Scientific American published an article about it in 1969, which was 20 years before his TV interviews in 1989, then Scientific American published another article about it right before Bob did his interviews. So, yes, it was theorized and published in a science magazine way before Bob Lazar ever started talking about it.

And much of Bob's other claims don't make sense in the context of known physics, as also noted:

For Bob Lazar to be right, pretty much all of modern atomic physics - including some basic observational things - would need to be wrong.


edit on 2019825 by Arbitrageur because: clarification




posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 01:31 PM
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Bob didn't discover 115.

What Bob discovered was how gullible many people can be.



posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 02:00 PM
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Overpost, source checking
edit on 25-8-2019 by Archivalist because: Meh



posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 02:37 PM
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You missed the point of my post after stomping on the isotope citation.

We created 115. We have not created the isle of stability isotope.

The isle of stability as a chemistry concept was around since the time of that Scientific American. (Technically before that)

The isotope of 115-116 (within the sweet spot of the isle) that is believed to actually exist was not fully realized as a legitimate theory until after 2000, last I looked. I'll go dig up citations, if you care enough to consider them.


Lazar may have never directly stated it was a particular isotope, but that's semantic with element descriptions in chemistry. Every element on the periodic table is an isotope, outlining that in regular speech is, in a way, redundant.

Lazar descried the element number as 115. (It makes more sense as 116, but during the time he was at S4, we didn't have the technical capability to adequately test if this "Element 115" Lazar referred to, was 115, or a reduced isotope of 116.)

On top of that, by explicitly mentioning it was the version of the element, in the sweet spot of the isle of stability, he is referring to just that one specific isotope. We have never produced this isotope.

We have only made unstable 115.

We have never produced the isle sweet spot 115.

In my opinion, it is drastically more likely that it was 116's stable isotope, reduced down to 115. (Assuming Lazar's story isn't fully fabricated.)

I'm not saying I buy Lazar 100%, but I've read into it several times.

116 should have exactly what he describes, but only an isotope we haven't made of that either.

Whether 115 can be made stable, in the way Lazar describes, is very speculative. I don't really even endorse it fully, I just know he described a stable 115 isotope, and we have not made such a thing. No matter what you cite. Lazar said they could work with this stuff, and described mass values that we can not produce.

We have created "115" we have not made pounds of a 115 isotope with a half life longer than a day.
Per his descriptions. We have not made something to the spec as described by Lazar.

"Apparent vindication - that element 115 had finally been created - directly contradicts a key claim that Bob Lazar"
That statement scores a touchdown, in a tennis court.

Argument is null as it does not match the parameters.
edit on 25-8-2019 by Archivalist because: Meh



posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 05:10 PM
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You must be brand new to all this?

Jus curious...



posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 06:04 PM
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a reply to: TheOnlyBilko

In science sometimes the old guard has to die off to make room for the next truth.



posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 06:21 PM
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originally posted by: HRH27
I'm firmly in the camp of believing Laser. I believe he does have E115.

One thing I do think, though is that the govermnent (?) plant false information during an employee's time at somewhere like s4 so that if there's an anonymous whistrblower they can idemtify whom that person is.


If he did have 115 when you started that sentence, he wouldn't have it when you typed the period at the end. Moscovium has a helf life of around 100 to 650 milliseconds, so he would have a little nihonium and a lot of cancer from the alpha particle emmision from radioactive decay.
Not germane to your post but a lot of people keep talking about the Russian discovery of 115. In fact, the lab where it was created in 2003 was a joint Russian American lab in Moscow Oblast, hence the name.



posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 07:47 PM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur

The video interview he's done with Joe Rogan which I posted on the previous page has him explaining a stable version of 115, it's a long interview so I'm not sure of a time stamp and I don't have the time now.

Unfortunately the interview includes some other guy (whom I get the 'salesman' vibe from) but luckily he doesn't interject much. However, he made a documentary about Bob Lazar which is on netflix, in which from memory has a much older clip Bob talking about a stable version of 115, rather than a decaying one.


It's worth your time to be honest, I thought he was a flat out fraud but now I'm not so sure...



posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 08:48 PM
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originally posted by: Archivalist
Lazar may have never directly stated it was a particular isotope, but that's semantic with element descriptions in chemistry. Every element on the periodic table is an isotope, outlining that in regular speech is, in a way, redundant.
I'm going by what Lazar actually said, but it seems like you're making excuses for him based on things that he didn't say. And no it's not redundant at all, since different isotopes of unstable elements have different half-lives. He would need to specifically state that some isotopes of 115 can be created on Earth, and some isotopes of 115 can't be created on Earth if that's what he meant, but he didn't say that. He just said elements that heavy couldn't be made on Earth, without citing anything about isotopes. You're adding that to try to salvage his story, but it's not really that important since the rest of his claims about physics are particularly awful and go against much of what we know through observation, such as the strong nuclear force (whatever he calls that) extending beyond atoms when observations show it doesn't do that, and so on.

a reply to: Qumulys
I already watched that and any time he tried to explain conflicting parts of his story he complained about having a migraine headache and the interview stalled, did you notice that? I'd have a migraine too, trying to keep all those lies straight.

Anyway 115 was synthesized in 2003, so anything he says after that is not really relevant to what I'm talking about, which is the claims by some that Bob "predicted" element 115.

So any source that would be relevant would need to be from the 1990s, or certainly earlier than 115 was synthesized in 2003. It was before 2003 that Bob said it was impossible to make element 115 on Earth. It would be silly even for Bob to say it couldn't be made after they already made it, though the rest of his physics stuff is ridiculously silly and inconsistent with observation

edit on 2019825 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Aug, 26 2019 @ 07:55 AM
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originally posted by: Starhooker
Did he identify 115 before or after the Russian s?
I find him 80% believable

The possibility of Element 115 existing (along withe several other yet-unconfirmed elements at the time) was EXPECTED for decades by science to exist before Lazar. Lazar was NOT (not by a longshot) the first person to publicly talk about element 115.

Many science textbooks prior to Lazar making his claim had a placeholder in the periodic table for element 115. All Lazar needed to do was read a textbook or maybe read a science magazine article about the possibility of element 115's existence to be able to make up a story in which element 115 isn't just hypothetical, but exists.

Put it this way, Element 120 has not yet been synthesized, but just like element 115 in Lazar's time, science does believe that it will someday be synthesized. So if I right now make up a fake story about how element 120 is used for FTL travel (knowing that element 120 is hypothesized to exist), and someday element 120 is found, does that mean that my fake story about FTL travel is real?


edit on 2019/8/26 by Box of Rain because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2019 @ 10:33 AM
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a reply to: Box of Rain

I keep reading he was by far not the first.

But i can not seem to find earlier publications about the element.

Do you have some links where people discus 115 before Lazar as you claimed?



posted on Aug, 26 2019 @ 11:03 AM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur
What is your source for Bob talking about specific Isotopes? I've heard him mention element 115 and the island of stability but I don't remembering him saying anything about specific isotopes.


Listen, he has mentioned there is a specific isotope many times, he even said what he thinks the atomic weight was. He has stated the man made 115 is highly neutron deficient (which it is). Just because you haven't heard him say that doesn't mean it didn't happen and we are not here to babysit others so they cannot do their own research.


originally posted by: ArbitrageurHe said elements as heavy as 115 could not be synthesized on Earth and had to be produced naturally near heavy stars, but this explanation goes against what we know about physics and how heavy elements are naturally produced.


What? It's well known heavy elements are made in supernovae and the centre of solar masses. The bigger the supernova collapse, the heavier the elements produced.
edit on 26-8-2019 by tc2290 because: (no reason given)

edit on 26-8-2019 by tc2290 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2019 @ 11:07 AM
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originally posted by: F4guy

originally posted by: HRH27
I'm firmly in the camp of believing Laser. I believe he does have E115.

One thing I do think, though is that the govermnent (?) plant false information during an employee's time at somewhere like s4 so that if there's an anonymous whistrblower they can idemtify whom that person is.


If he did have 115 when you started that sentence, he wouldn't have it when you typed the period at the end. Moscovium has a helf life of around 100 to 650 milliseconds, so he would have a little nihonium and a lot of cancer from the alpha particle emmision from radioactive decay.
Not germane to your post but a lot of people keep talking about the Russian discovery of 115. In fact, the lab where it was created in 2003 was a joint Russian American lab in Moscow Oblast, hence the name.


Do you know what an isotope is?



posted on Aug, 26 2019 @ 11:09 AM
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originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: Starhooker
Did he identify 115 before or after the Russian s?
I find him 80% believable

The possibility of Element 115 existing (along withe several other yet-unconfirmed elements at the time) was EXPECTED for decades by science to exist before Lazar. Lazar was NOT (not by a longshot) the first person to publicly talk about element 115.

Many science textbooks prior to Lazar making his claim had a placeholder in the periodic table for element 115. All Lazar needed to do was read a textbook or maybe read a science magazine article about the possibility of element 115's existence to be able to make up a story in which element 115 isn't just hypothetical, but exists.

Put it this way, Element 120 has not yet been synthesized, but just like element 115 in Lazar's time, science does believe that it will someday be synthesized. So if I right now make up a fake story about how element 120 is used for FTL travel (knowing that element 120 is hypothesized to exist), and someday element 120 is found, does that mean that my fake story about FTL travel is real?



Lazar literally already said this. He never claimed to have "discovered" 115. It doesn't prove anything either way.



posted on Aug, 26 2019 @ 05:40 PM
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originally posted by: tc2290

originally posted by: F4guy

originally posted by: HRH27
I'm firmly in the camp of believing Laser. I believe he does have E115.

One thing I do think, though is that the govermnent (?) plant false information during an employee's time at somewhere like s4 so that if there's an anonymous whistrblower they can idemtify whom that person is.


If he did have 115 when you started that sentence, he wouldn't have it when you typed the period at the end. Moscovium has a helf life of around 100 to 650 milliseconds, so he would have a little nihonium and a lot of cancer from the alpha particle emmision from radioactive decay.
Not germane to your post but a lot of people keep talking about the Russian discovery of 115. In fact, the lab where it was created in 2003 was a joint Russian American lab in Moscow Oblast, hence the name.


Do you know what an isotope is?


I learned what an isotrope is in high school, and then taught that to undergrad chem majors after receiving my PhD in PChem. Moscovium has 5 isotopes, none of which are stable, having mass numbers ranging from 287 to 291. They have a half life from 87 milliseconds to 220 ms. They all have an Alpha particle decay mode. An alpha particle consists of 2 protons and 2 neutrons bound together and is identical with a He4 nucleus, except that it is highly ionizing when resulting from a decay process or tertiary fission, and the helium nucleus is not.



posted on Aug, 26 2019 @ 08:27 PM
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originally posted by: Hunkadinka
I am watching "Ancient Aliens"

First mistake.


The segment starts by mentioning Bob Lazar and his "discovery" of Element 115 which he claims powered the crashed or captured UFOs or alien craft. I Googled Element 115 and found this at Wikipedia, in brackets:

Lazar must have had subscriptions to Popular Electronics, Popular Mechanics, and Scientific American. The "hand scanner" is right out of "Close Encounter of the Third Kind", and Popular Electronics. Area 51 was featured in Weekly World News, August 18, 1980. Scientists had theorized the existence of higher order elements, including 115, back in the 60's. Scientific American had an article about the "island of stability" around element 115 (actually closer to 112) long before Lazar yapped about it.
edit on 26-8-2019 by FosterVS because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 27 2019 @ 08:41 AM
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a reply to: tc2290


Listen, he has mentioned there is a specific isotope many times, he even said what he thinks the atomic weight was. He has stated the man made 115 is highly neutron deficient (which it is). Just because you haven't heard him say that doesn't mean it didn't happen and we are not here to babysit others so they cannot do their own research.


When somebody makes a statement and declares it to be a fact, asking them for a source is not even remotely expecting to be babysat.

It’s a pretty simple concept. You say something is fact, you support it. You don’t get to just declare it a fact and expect others to accept it. Particularly when you’re making a claim about something a person said at some point in the span of 30 years. Given that the other half of your comment to that member is repeating something he or she already said as if you’re saying something they should already know, though, I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised at your infantile discussion tactics.



posted on Aug, 27 2019 @ 09:12 AM
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Fact: No one knows if Lazar's story is true.


As much as people think they know Lazar and what's true and what's not, there are nothing more than opinions here. No one knows either way.

I've been watching this story for probably 25 years. I've heard every single interview and have seen every video clip many times over. I've heard every single argument from both sides. No one here is presenting anything new that hasn't been said already. No one in this thread is anywhere closer to knowing anything more about the story or about Lazar. The only thing you can do is present your opinion. Unfortunately most people present their opinion as if they know.

There are legitimate arguments both ways. Lazar fudged info on education. Lazar was the victim of erasure. Lazar never worked at S4. Lazar has been confirmed by recent individuals. Lazar predicted a stable isotope of 115. A stable isotope of 115 was predicted by science before that. Lazar had a migraine while telling his story in this interview. Lazar didn't have a migraine while presenting his story in that interview. Lazar prefers peaches over pears. Lazar doesn't prefer peaches over pears. Fact is, no one here or anywhere else knows what the facts are. Only Lazar and a few people that are either dead now or you'll never ever hear from know the facts. Not you. Not me.

I enjoy reading these drama filled threads as much as I do hearing Lazar tell his story. It's entertainment, it's good entertainment. But let's not kid ourselves when making claims about the truth. I seriously doubt we'll ever know whether any of it is true, or how much is the truth and how much isn't the truth. For some reason I love listening to him tell the story. It's an enticing mystery to wonder about and it's fun to listen to. Tidbits of info will probably continue to trickle out about this story after we're all dead, but it will probably never be proven or disproved. Anyone outside of the story who claims to know the truth is simply on an ego trip. One thing is for sure, Bob doesn't care.



posted on Aug, 27 2019 @ 10:48 AM
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edit on 27-8-2019 by TheodorePenderhuges because: Double post



posted on Aug, 27 2019 @ 10:53 AM
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originally posted by: tc2290

originally posted by: Box of Rain

originally posted by: Starhooker
Did he identify 115 before or after the Russian s?
I find him 80% believable

The possibility of Element 115 existing (along withe several other yet-unconfirmed elements at the time) was EXPECTED for decades by science to exist before Lazar. Lazar was NOT (not by a longshot) the first person to publicly talk about element 115.

Many science textbooks prior to Lazar making his claim had a placeholder in the periodic table for element 115. All Lazar needed to do was read a textbook or maybe read a science magazine article about the possibility of element 115's existence to be able to make up a story in which element 115 isn't just hypothetical, but exists.

Put it this way, Element 120 has not yet been synthesized, but just like element 115 in Lazar's time, science does believe that it will someday be synthesized. So if I right now make up a fake story about how element 120 is used for FTL travel (knowing that element 120 is hypothesized to exist), and someday element 120 is found, does that mean that my fake story about FTL travel is real?



Lazar literally already said this. He never claimed to have "discovered" 115. It doesn't prove anything either way.


From “UFOs and the Alien Presence” by Michael Lindemann:

RS (Ralph Steiner): What was your task during the ten times or less that you were out there….

BL (Bob Lazar): I hadn’t gotten into a solid work schedule. Most of the time I spent there was on demonstrations and just getting caught up on what others had done before me….

[Short skip in transcript]

BL: …Keep in mind that when I first went out there they had no idea what the fuel was.

ML (Michael Lindemann): They had not yet identified 115?

BL: I was the one who identified 115. That was my only contribution to the project. And I don’t stand on the fact that it’s 115, but if it’s not, it’s 114. It’s right in there.

PH (Physicist friend of Lindemann’s): How did you determine that? Did you put it in a mass spectrograph? How do you figure out what element it was?

BL: Well, there are many different ways, but certainly a mass spectrograph was one way. We also did all kinds of bizarre things. Los Alamos was apparently involved in some of the analysis of the 115, and I don’t know if they knew what they were doing. They were also involved in some of the machining of the 115 pieces.

[Short skip in transcript]

ML: So your contribution was identifying this stuff?

BL: Yes, and there again, this confirms what I said, that this project was apparently just being worked on for some time, several years I would imagine, and they had no idea what the fuel was. We’re talking about a very basic thing, certainly a reasonable starting point.



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