What was the tree of knowledge? The forbiden fruit?

I would like to address this from this perspective.

We evolved from something less than what we are today.
Our ancestors ate something that caused us to become intelligent.

I've read that meat and or protein may be a catalist for increased brain function.

Is eating meat for the first time the "Tree Of Knowledge"?

What else could truely be the Tree Of knowledge that changed our ancestors from something ape like to what we are today. Was it some diet change?

I am not saying that Evolution is true I simply want to approach this question in this post from that perspective. I do not want to argue over evolution and creation since neither are yet proveable.

Please give me your insights and links! to this knowledge.

My hopes are that if we can nail down the "Tree of Knowledge" then we might be able to figure out what may have been the denied "Tree of Life"....

I think all the myth in the bible is sort of a representation of past reality so something out there might be able to evolve us into an undieing species =).

X

The fruit from the Tree of Knowledge gave knowledge as to the difference between good and evil. Adam and Eve were banned from the garden because if they also ate from the Tree of Life they would have eternal life and be like gods themselves.

What the hell was god thinking when he left them trees in the garden..


I belive the 'tree of knowledge' comes from social evolution and behavorial changes. Also, with our highly advanced brains, we are able to think ahead, not just in the present. When we figure out one problem, we use that problem to solve the next, and this goes on and on expanding knowlege and passing them on to the children.

History teaches. What we learn from the past we can use in the future, so back in the old days there wasnt much of a past to learn from, whereas now, theres like.. thousands of years of recorded history we can dissect.

Other animals simply dont have the brains to figure out the past present and future, therefore depriving themselves of gained knowledge.

But the big questions still remains: If we did evolve from apes, and the ape brains were not advanced... how did it suddenly "become advanced" whilst others stayed the same?

Hmm... Theres been alot of theories to explain this, but I think its just a waste of time thinking of these things. Its got to be some kind of change.. like.. say the apes took a social adaptation to a climate change, and that resulted in the 'needing' of more advanced brains so they 'evolved' in a way that allowed them to have the brains to figure out how 1 + 1 = 2....

Then BAM! Here we are today wondering how we turned into who we are today.



[edit on 3/4/2005 by InanimateCarbonRod]

arg...the tree of knowledge was one of two trees along with the tree of life in the garden of eden.

God gave Adam and Eve animals skins to
wear before they were banished from the garden of Eden.
I assume that animals had not been killed before and that
Adam and Eve were vegetarians.

So I think your theory about eating meat is interesting. But
this "tree of knowledge" would have to be some protein
source? Perhaps it was'nt fruit as we know the word...
maybe she ate bird's eggs that were in a nest in the tree?






[edit on 4-3-2005 by elaine]

Originally posted by Xeven
I would like to address this from this perspective.

We evolved from something less than what we are today.
Our ancestors ate something that caused us to become intelligent....

What else could truely be the Tree Of knowledge that changed our ancestors from something ape like to what we are today. Was it some diet change?

Please give me your insights and links! to this knowledge.

My hopes are that if we can nail down the "Tree of Knowledge" then we might be able to figure out what may have been the denied "Tree of Life"....

Well, your post has really limited the scope of the answer because of the way you have framed the question. You have accepted that we did indeed eat something to become knowledgeable and therefore evolve, and attach this to it being from the Biblical tree of knowledge, later linking it to the Biblical tree of Life. Therefore you look for an answer as to what that food was and not if it was, or what the trees in fact were and if they were.

However, the trees of life and knowledge are not in my opinion what most believe them to be, that is, real sources of something relative to man's past and present existence. They are not known only in The Bible, and in fact are represented by the Egyptian society well before the writings of the OT.

The tree of knowledge was the Sycamore and Ished tree depending upon the cult, the tree of life was again depending on the cult, the Ished or the Olive. The latter was called the tree of life because it was on its leaves pharoahs named were written when they died and became gods. There are numerous reliefs of Osisris stepping on and smiting the head of Apophis as he wraps around the tree of knowledge as well as reliefs of the dead pharoah's name being added to the tree of life.

I therefore still look for an explanation as to why we evolved and have intelligence.

I would say that the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was something created by God simply to give humans a means to exercise their free will.

In saying that humans evolved from a lesser form, you may be correct. Before the eating of the fruit, humans had no knowledge of right vs. wrong, didn't feel the slightest shame at nudity, and evidently were able to converse with animals. In a sense, humans were nothing more than animals. The top ones, that is true, but nonetheless animals. Having a knowledge of good and evil, having the free will to obey God or go against him, elevated humans to a plain of intelligence far above any other animals.

It is conceivable that had other animals in the garden eaten of the fruit, they too would have become like us. Most likely, the only reason that Lucifer tempted humans instead of a different animal was because man was God's greatest creation, and through this Lucifer could impart the most damage upon creation.

Originally posted by Xeven
I would like to address this from this perspective.

We evolved from something less than what we are today.
Our ancestors ate something that caused us to become intelligent.

I've read that meat and or protein may be a catalist for increased brain function.

Is eating meat for the first time the "Tree Of Knowledge"?

What else could truely be the Tree Of knowledge that changed our ancestors from something ape like to what we are today. Was it some diet change?

I am not saying that Evolution is true I simply want to approach this question in this post from that perspective. I do not want to argue over evolution and creation since neither are yet proveable.

Please give me your insights and links! to this knowledge.

My hopes are that if we can nail down the "Tree of Knowledge" then we might be able to figure out what may have been the denied "Tree of Life"....

I think all the myth in the bible is sort of a representation of past reality so something out there might be able to evolve us into an undieing species =).

X

Okay.. there's a couple of things that need to be cleared up, because you're (understandably) getting Judaeo-Christian religion and myth tangled up. The tree in the Biblical Garden of Eden was "The Tree of knowledge of good and evil" and wasn't the tree of life. The "Tree of Life" is part of the Kabbalic knowledge and referrs to a pattern and not specifically to something in the Bible.

Now... was there a foodstuff that we ate that increased our brain size? The answer is probably not that simple. Good diet MIGHT do it if the good diet is in infancy and childhood, but this doesn't explain the rest of it. Nor does it explain why our branch of anthropoids went on to develop all this while the ape lineage simply lurks in bushes and eats both plant and animal matter (some, like the chimps, do hunt and eat meat.)

Our progress is due to our tool-making ability (hands, ability to walk upright perhaps), brain) AND our culture (ability to pass knowledge on to other generations and to build onto that knowledge. Social structure has a lot to do with it as well; in societies where the females have equal privelege to food and other resources as the males, you have lower infant mortality rates and better survival.

So there's not just one thing.

As to the myths and legends and religious tales, the Bible is NOT the oldest collection of tales in the world. The Sumerian texts were written a long time before (and there is no mention of the Garden of Eden or trees of knowledge) and so were the Egyptian (ditto.) While it is a perceived religious truth/legend, it wouldn't do much good to try and match it to ancient evidence that existed long before the Bible was written.

It's an ancient collection of beliefs of the Jewish people, just as we have ancient collections of beliefs of many other peoples and ALL of those (not just the Bible) should be given equal weight and respect.

Originally posted by Xeven
I would like to address this from this perspective.

We evolved from something less than what we are today.
Our ancestors ate something that caused us to become intelligent.

I've read that meat and or protein may be a catalist for increased brain function.

Only inso far as they represented a denser bulk of calories to feed the intense caloric requirements of a large brain.

Is eating meat for the first time the "Tree Of Knowledge"?[/quote3]
How would that have become developed into something like the genesis myth, and why is it only a tradition amoung the jews (at least amoung the pre-modern societies)?

I am not saying that Evolution is true

Why?

I do not want to argue over evolution and creation since neither are yet proveable.

Evolutionary theory makes specific testable statements and when they are tested evolution is usually shown to be successful, whereas creationism makes very, very few testable statements and if they actually bother to test them they end up having creationism being refuted. Evolution is by far the 'stronger' idea than creationism.

My hopes are that if we can nail down the "Tree of Knowledge" then we might be able to figure out what may have been the denied "Tree of Life"

An interesting endavour but I fail to see how it can be successful if the scientific processes underlying the attempt are only accepted when they are convient.

I think all the myth in the bible is sort of a representation of past reality so something out there might be able to evolve us into an undieing species

Why? Nothing in biology or evolution would indicate that 'immortal' individuals are a 'successful' strategy for a population or species.

I therefore still look for an explanation as to why we evolved and have intelligence.

Then I suggest turning more attention to the scientific studies, rather than this esoteric line of inquiry. At the very least, preface the approach with the detailed science, since any attempt to understand anything is going to involve a less detailed and less critical 'scientific'understanding anyway.



Here is a sumerian/assyrian depiction of what might be called a 'tree of life/knowledge' etc. At least its a tree/bush that has some importance.

 

InanimateCarbonRod
What the hell was god thinking when he left them trees in the garden

Indeed, apparently it was a set up from the begining.

how did it suddenly "become advanced" whilst others stayed the same?

There are several threads here that look at this, however i would venture to say that the primitive apes that lead to humans simply weren't all that different from other apes, and there was no 'big jump' from apish stupidity to human genius. It was something that occured in small steps and that was predicated by the various dictates of the surrounding environment and ape societies.

and that resulted in the 'needing' of more advanced brains

This kind of thinking has been rejected since the time of Lemarck (well, not quite). Organisms don't evolve traits based on a need.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
The fruit from the Tree of Knowledge gave knowledge as to the difference between good and evil. Adam and Eve were banned from the garden because if they also ate from the Tree of Life they would have eternal life and be like gods themselves.

So which is it...imortality or...the knwoledge of good and evil? hahah oops...thought you said tree of knowledge twice...my bad

It was forbidden because God doesnt want us to think, or be knowledgable. And that is even taking it how it is written. He would prefere mindless drones instead of thinking ones.

[edit on 5-3-2005 by e 2 e k 1 a 7]

Originally posted by Xeven...We evolved from something less than what we are today.
Our ancestors ate something that caused us to become intelligent....
What else could truely be the Tree Of knowledge that changed our ancestors from something ape like to what we are today. Was it some diet change?Please give me your insights and links! to this knowledge....
My hopes are that if we can nail down the "Tree of Knowledge" then we might be able to figure out what may have been the denied "Tree of Life"....

I think all the myth in the bible is sort of a representation of past reality so something out there might be able to evolve us into an undieing species =).
X

I think that what changed us from ape like to more human and more intelligent was the additon of DNA given to us by the ELohim....which is those who came from the stars according to the Sumerian and in the Bible in Genisis is whose image we are made Here is a link about it!


[edit on 3/5/2005 by Cherish]

Originally posted by ByrdSo there's not just one thing.

As to the myths and legends and religious tales, the Bible is NOT the oldest collection of tales in the world. The Sumerian texts were written a long time before (and there is no mention of the Garden of Eden or trees of knowledge) and so were the Egyptian (ditto.) While it is a perceived religious truth/legend, it wouldn't do much good to try and match it to ancient evidence that existed long before the Bible was written.

It's an ancient collection of beliefs of the Jewish people, just as we have ancient collections of beliefs of many other peoples and ALL of those (not just the Bible) should be given equal weight and respect.

i disagree. That would be like denying that the names we give the days of the week, or the months, santa claus, Christian customs, the Easter bunny, or for that matter the Christian theology did not originate from other peoples or cultures.

Your statement also suggests that every single one of those myths happen to be exceptionally similar creations of cultures without having outside influences, and therefore they are all individually true.

Here is a quoted blurb correlating the Garden of Edin with Sumerian tests and the link is HERE

One gets the notion from Genesis's narrator that by "eating a fruit" one can "obtain knowledge." This concept appears in Sumerian myths. Kramer has noted that Enki, the god of Wisdom, desires "TO KNOW" about several plants in his wife's garden. His assistant does the actual picking of the plants and presents them to Enki for eating. Later, Enki's enraged wife, Ninhursag, learns what has happened. Having eaten of her plants without her permission, she curses her husband with death. Enki becomes deathly sick and feels the pain of death beginning in his various body parts. Eventually a fox is successful in persuading Ninhursag to relent, and heal Enki. She asks him what part of his body "hurts" and then makes either a god or goddess to heal that part.

We evolved from something less than what we are today.
Our ancestors ate something that caused us to become intelligent....

You know that "we evolved from something less than what we are today" how? It appears that you are taking the evolutinary view here, and assuming that "we" as humans had to "eat" something to reach our present status? Try this on for size....the human race has always been what it is...those that came before us were no less intelligent than we are today...in fact, i'll wager that they were quite technically advanced.

Basically, life on earth has gone through many incarnations and cycles, reaching a certain technical and population level...and then eating ourselves right into extinction in more ways than one. All the "discoveries" of our past...are "experiments" gone wrong...the weak links that didn't survive...what we are today, in our present form, we have always been.

You asked about the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil"...as most things written in the Bible, this is open to interpretation as to whether one accepts it as literal, or allusion...

Man was created WITHOUT the knowledge of good or evil, no concept of what it even was...in order to explain how mankind fell into "sin"...this "tree" is being used as a teaching mechanism by our Creator to show those that came after, the results of going against the Natural Laws in a way that human beings can understand...the "fruit" is the enticement to "Break the Rules". So, as i see it...the fruit is whatever you concieve it to be...nothing more, as the important lesson is, there are always consequences for our choices...

Adding this as an afterthought: Someone also referenced the "Tree Of Life". If this particular subject is researched, one will find that eventually it is truely part of the Kabbalistic beliefs, and the basis for the use of Tarot Card diviniation. Research it even further and you will find information linking it to Sacred Geometry...all of which boil down to the universal language of numbers...the language that EVERYONE can understand.

Aside from all that (which i agree with most of.. if not all... ) sometimes many views are true cause theres all difrent levels of meaning and creation... DENSITYS of existence etc etc...

So the earthly fruit if there was one couldve been (in my opinion) a HALLUCINOGENIC or something?

Just cause the bible says apple.. doesnt mean it was an apple..? are there any hallucinogenic apples about? i dont know.. maybe?

Man ive had '___'... and trust me u OPEN YOUR EYES! as it says, their eyes were opened to know good and evil... ?
when you are 'tripping' everything is exagerrated, .. you can even see the molecular structure of things moving... so to suddenly put some clothes on would make sense to me........ haha..

so would the talking snake!



[edit on 113131p://410311 by info_junkee]

The tree of knowing, not the tree of knowledge. Sex.

Xeven, I think you hit it on the head. I never thought of the symbolic act of eating, but you may be right.

The symbolic and spiritual act of "eating meat" represents a certain age in which man become accountable to God. Thus, when Eve ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil she became accountable to God and thus sin could now interfere with our relationship with God.

The tree of eternal life, bounces in and out of mythologies throughout our histories. I believe that it's a symbolic quest that we should try to remove that sin so that we can gain eternal life.

I think everyone's taking the eating part far too literally. To "eat of the fruit" is to indulge, in this case it would be indulging in knowledge. Don't ask me why God was afraid of his creation gaining knowledge but it wasn't the only story about him punishing man for it, the tower of Babel story was about the same thing.

So here is my opinion. What happened in the garden is that the "beings" that would become Adam and Eve broke GOD's commitment to them. They became conscience of their enviroment. Essentially they were then born as they had the option to stay in communion with GOD, but essentially they were not alive, they were in a sort of ethral limbo with a direct connection to GOD. But since he gave Eve the edict not to eat of fruit of the tree of knowledge but she choose, due to the serpent, to rather have knowledge of what "life" is. She then choose to become apart of the living world, thus Eve and Adam and all of mortal man kind from then on would be bound to the mortal world of life and death.

The tree of knowledge is man's conscience awakening that he is alive and at some point must deal with becoming dead.

The fruit from the Tree of Knowledge gave knowledge as to the difference between good and evil.

Yeah, I love how they tacked on that little end bit "of good and evil". No, the original meaning of it is pretty clear... The lessen was that God told them that everything they needed to know they'd get from him, and to not seek knowledge elsewhere. It was the Church's attempt (and success) at convincing their flock that seeking knowledge for knowledge's sake was "evil". It ensured that the flock sought enlightenment only through God and his agents (i.e. the Clergy), and thus enabled control.