well....... if they dont want it to be known, wouldnt they NOT write about it?
Council of Nicea - NO reincarnation, NO books of the Bible, page 1
privacy
Topic started on 4-3-2005 @ 12:51 AM by Iasion
Greetings all,
I thought I'd make a new post on this interesting subject. I was a little dissappointed that LadyV ignored my post pointing to the original documents that showed the truth. I would think a "seeker of truth" would want to read the original documents for herself :-)
The legend that the Council of Nicea removed re-incarnation from the Bible (as well as another legend about it chosing the books of the Bible) is very common on the internet, and I see it popped up here again.
But,
there is no evidence it happened.
Firstly, note that the Council of Nicea took place in 325CE (553CE was 2nd council of Constantinople.)
We still have the official records of this Council (the Creed, the Canons and the Synodal Letter.)
You can read a copy of the these here :
www.newadvent.org...
That's right - anyone who actually wants to check the hard facts can READ the documents the Council of Nicea actually wrote - the "minutes of the meeting", so to speak - it's not a great deal.
You will note there is NO MENTION of re-incarnation (nor any mention of deciding the books of the bible.)
Also,
we have several accounts of the meeting, some from people who attended it.
None of them makes any mention of re-incarnation (nor the books of the Bible.)
Roger Pearse has an excellent essay detailing these accounts of the Council, showing they made no mention of re-incarnation :
www.tertullian.org...
It's another one of those legends passed around on the 'net.
But it's not true.
Iasion
I thought I'd make a new post on this interesting subject. I was a little dissappointed that LadyV ignored my post pointing to the original documents that showed the truth. I would think a "seeker of truth" would want to read the original documents for herself :-)
The legend that the Council of Nicea removed re-incarnation from the Bible (as well as another legend about it chosing the books of the Bible) is very common on the internet, and I see it popped up here again.
But,
there is no evidence it happened.
Firstly, note that the Council of Nicea took place in 325CE (553CE was 2nd council of Constantinople.)
We still have the official records of this Council (the Creed, the Canons and the Synodal Letter.)
You can read a copy of the these here :
www.newadvent.org...
That's right - anyone who actually wants to check the hard facts can READ the documents the Council of Nicea actually wrote - the "minutes of the meeting", so to speak - it's not a great deal.
You will note there is NO MENTION of re-incarnation (nor any mention of deciding the books of the bible.)
Also,
we have several accounts of the meeting, some from people who attended it.
None of them makes any mention of re-incarnation (nor the books of the Bible.)
Roger Pearse has an excellent essay detailing these accounts of the Council, showing they made no mention of re-incarnation :
www.tertullian.org...
It's another one of those legends passed around on the 'net.
But it's not true.
Iasion
reply posted on 4-3-2005 @ 01:36 PM by Seekerof
Originally posted by Netchicken
Nice try Iasion, but people don't want to know the truth, they want something to support their beliefs first.
Even if you had it on video people won't believe it, they will just say that its been deleted.
Sometimes the illusion is stronger than the reality ....
Additionally, Netchicken had a topic thread on this here:
Reincarnation and the bible ... an old horse flogged to death - repeatedly
From 2002, but rings true with this current topic.
seekerof
reply posted on 5-3-2005 @ 07:05 AM by helen670
hi all...
The early Christian Church fought the idea of reincarnation, which entered the Christian world through Eastern teachings such as those of the Manicheans.
Origen's false teaching of the "pre-existence of souls" was closely related to these teachings, and at the Fifth Ecumenical Council in Constantinople in 553 it was strongly condemned and its followers anathematized.
Many individual Fathers of the Church wrote against it, notably St. Ambrose of Milan in the West (On Belief in the Resurrection, Book II), St. Gregory of Nyssa in .the East (On the Soul and the ,Resurrection), and others.
www.roca.org...
The early Christian Church fought the idea of reincarnation, which entered the Christian world through Eastern teachings such as those of the Manicheans.
Origen's false teaching of the "pre-existence of souls" was closely related to these teachings, and at the Fifth Ecumenical Council in Constantinople in 553 it was strongly condemned and its followers anathematized.
Many individual Fathers of the Church wrote against it, notably St. Ambrose of Milan in the West (On Belief in the Resurrection, Book II), St. Gregory of Nyssa in .the East (On the Soul and the ,Resurrection), and others.
www.roca.org...
reply posted on 5-3-2005 @ 08:56 AM by Paul_Richard
All of the major passages in the Bible that espoused a belief in reincarnation were ordered by Roman Emperor Justinian to be omitted. This was
followed by a period of censorship and persecution of those who didn't adhere to the laws of the church. There are still hints of reincarnation that
have remained in the Bible but any open preaching of reincarnation was condemned by the government, starting in the Sixth Century.
I quote my first reference:
<< The first gospels must have contained teachings which the early Christians were prepared to preserve with their lives. Unfortunately they appear to have died in vain. Our orthodox versions of the Old and New Testaments date no further back than the 6th Century, when the Emperor Justinian summoned the Fifth Ecumenical Congress of Constantinople in 533 A.D. to expunge the Platonically inspired writings of Origen, an early Church Father, who had upheld reincarnation until his death three hundred years before. >>
Taken From How The Early Church Suppressed Paganism & Astrology While Supporting Reincarnation.
I quote my second reference:
<< Reincarnation was a part of early Christianity. Most all Eastern religions believe in reincarnation, and Judaism is an Eastern religion. Christianity, coming from Judaism, also accepted reincarnation as a basic tenet. Until May 5th, 533 AD. The Emperor Justinian I, guided by his wife, called a council of bishops from the Eastern Empire. They gathered in Constantinople along with representatives from Pope Vigilius back in the Western Empire. At the Fifth Ecumenical Council, the Emperor announced he no longer wished to advocate the belief in reincarnation. This may have something to do with the idea that man can be "immortal" through multiple lives. Although this Council was well documented, the reason behind the Emperor's decision was never noted. After a show of hands, the bishops agreed with the Emperor. They found three chapters in the Bible mentioning reincarnation and decided to remove those chapters. The Pope agreed with the Council but did so only because he did not want the Eastern Empire to appear "advanced" to the Western Empire. Bibles were collected throughout the two Christian Empires, they were burned and completely rewritten removing the offending three chapters. As an outsider, I find it interesting that whims of one man can cause the word of God to be completely rewritten. >>
From When I die will I come back?
I quote a third reference:
<< There is strong evidence (e.g. Dead Sea Scrolls) that Jesus of Nazareth was a member of the Jewish Essene Sect. It is speculated often that one of the main reasons the Catholic Church has chosen not to release all the Dead Sea Scrolls for public scrutiny is because they contain unequivocal evidence within them that Jesus was a member of the Essene sect and that that sect strongly believed in reincarnation. Reincarnation was a widely held belief amongst many early 'Christians' (as well as some Jewish sects, the Essenes, the Gnostics and some Pharisees) up until AD 553, when the 5th Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church convened by the Roman Emperor Justinian at Constantinople declared the concept to be "an anathema". >>
<< It should be clearly understood that the concept of reincarnation is a serious threat to the power and authority of the Christian Church because it unequivocally renders as irrelevant the self appointed role of the Christian Clergy to "absolve sin and save sinners from descending into eternal hell". >>
Taken from Bible Concepts In Support Of Esoteric Concepts.
Here is a fourth reference to Roman Emperor Justinian having ordered all passages and chapters about reincarnation in the Bible to be omitted:
<< At the Fifth Ecumenical Church Council at Constantinople in 553 A.D., under the reign of the Emperor Justinian, several books, including those on reincarnation, were removed from the Bible and many other changes in the text were made. Resisting these distortions, the Coptic Templar Order continued to preserve the pure teachings and records of the life of Jesus through the centuries. >>
Taken from the Coptic Fellowship Home Page.
There appears to be some question as to the exact year that Emperor Justinian ordered all references to reincarnation to be omitted from the Bible (533 AD or 553 AD). However, all of them state that it occurred in the Sixth Century and during the Fifth Ecumenical Council.
By the way, it is also mentioned in Life Between Life by Joel L.Whitton, M.D., Ph.D. & Joe Fisher.
I quote from pages 62-63:
<< Not until the fourth century, when Christianity evolved from harried bands of secret worshippers to an institution ripe for political manipulation, did opposition develop to reincarnation in Christian theology. The new Christian-State alliance, aiming for the cultivated dependence on the masses, felt threatened by those who believed in rebirth because such Christians tended to be self-reliant, free-thinking individuals whose subservience could not be guaranteed. Neither to be induced by promises of heavenly bliss nor intimidated by threats of hellfire, they were branded as heretics (the word “heretic” means, at root, nothing more pernicious than one who is “able to choose”). Nevertheless, there was no official edict condemning the doctrine of reincarnation across the Roman empire until the year 533 AD, when the Emperor Justinian issued formal ecclesiastical curses against the “monstrous restoration” of rebirth. This censure was followed by persecution to all who refused to surrender their convictions. Resistance, however, was so tenacious – particularly by rebel Christians called the Cathars – that not until the thirteenth century did the church’s campaign of terror and slaughter effectively rout reincarnational thinking in the West. >>
Here’s a page which addresses Emperor Justinian’s specific edicts against the doctrine of reincarnation: Medieval Sourcebook: Fifth Ecumenical Council: Constantinople II, 553.
I quote:
<< If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. >>
<< Whoever says or thinks that human souls pre-existed, i.e., that they had previously been spirits and holy powers, but that, satiated with the vision of God, they had turned to evil, and in this way the divine love in them had died out (apyugeisas) and they had therefore become souls (yukas) and had been condemned to punishment in bodies, shall be anathema. >>
It didn’t pay to be a reincarnationist Christian in those days, to say the least.
A counterargument to this is that the infamous "Three Chapters" that were omitted by Emperor Justinian were not "true chapters" of the Bible. Yes, they are not considered "true chapters" by many Christians today precisely because of their omission in the Sixth Century.
The very fact that Emperor Justinian ordered their omission indicates that they were part of official biblical scripture at that time. Many present-day bible scholars don't consider them to be "valid chapters" simply because that is what they were taught -- in part from the edicts of a long dead Roman Emperor whose authority they do not question. Many "scholars" don't even know about Justinian's decision to omit reincarnation from Christendom because they were never taught that in school.
In the Sixth Century, the theological authority of the Christian clergy could be overruled by the government. Roman Emperor Justinian, who did indeed believe that the "Three Chapters" were part of the Bible, felt threatened by their references to reincarnation and had them officially removed.
One cannot order the removal of something that didn't exist in the first place
Then there is the counterargument that Origen was not an author of the Bible. Yes, that is true. Regardless, he is considered to be an early church leader who was highly influential and who espoused the doctrine of reincarnation. Three centuries later Emperor Justinian felt threatened by Origen's writings in spreading the doctrine of reincarnation in Christendom and therefore put his teachings in a heretical light.
Reincarnation was part of the belief system of many if not most early Christians. It is not as prevalent today in "official scripture" simply because church leaders over the centuries desired greater control over the Christian population and felt that ending a belief in reincarnation was one of the ways with which to do this.
In short, church corruption is the reason why most Christians today, especially fundamentalist Christians, do not believe in the doctrine of reincarnation
The following is from the free online encyclopedia called Wikipedia:
<< Parallels to reincarnation are often seen by outsiders in the Christian concepts of rebirth and resurrection which are taught by all mainstream branches of Christianity (orthodox, catholic, protestant) as well as most non-traditional branches (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.). But these groups reject the concept of reincarnation, though some smaller groups (Christian gnostics, the Liberal Catholic Church, and the Christian Community) do include the concept of reincarnation in their doctrine. >>
<< In related groups it is frequently maintained, based on certain Bible texts and church fathers (especially Origen), that the early Christians did believe in reincarnation and that the reincarnation proofs had been destroyed by the church later on. >>
Despite Emperor Justinian's meddling, some passages in the Bible still remain that point to a belief in reincarnation. I quote the same site:
<< Bible verses used as proof texts for the reincarnation teachings of early Christians are, e.g. Mt 11:14 and 17:12f and John 9,1 ff. Read with a new-age worldview, these texts can indeed be interpreted as referring to reincarnation. Jesus identifies John the Baptist as the returning prophet Elijah in Matthews 11:14. >>
<< When the disciples ask Jesus about a blind man who had sinned: John 9:2 (NIV) His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
John 9:34 (NIV) To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.
In the Old Testament, David writes:
Psalms 51:5 (NIV) Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. >>
Here is more on the early church father known as Origen, again from the above site:
<< It is also maintained that the 3rd century church father Origen had been an adherent of reincarnation. Origen stood for the pre-existence of the soul -- the concept that the human soul existed already before birth. "The soul has neither beginning nor end... [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous lives" (De Principiis). He knew the teachings of reincarnation and mentions them in his writings. In his exegesis of the above Bible verses, he discusses how they are interpreted by adherents of reincarnation. >>
[edit on 5-3-2005 by Paul_Richard]
I quote my first reference:
<< The first gospels must have contained teachings which the early Christians were prepared to preserve with their lives. Unfortunately they appear to have died in vain. Our orthodox versions of the Old and New Testaments date no further back than the 6th Century, when the Emperor Justinian summoned the Fifth Ecumenical Congress of Constantinople in 533 A.D. to expunge the Platonically inspired writings of Origen, an early Church Father, who had upheld reincarnation until his death three hundred years before. >>
Taken From How The Early Church Suppressed Paganism & Astrology While Supporting Reincarnation.
I quote my second reference:
<< Reincarnation was a part of early Christianity. Most all Eastern religions believe in reincarnation, and Judaism is an Eastern religion. Christianity, coming from Judaism, also accepted reincarnation as a basic tenet. Until May 5th, 533 AD. The Emperor Justinian I, guided by his wife, called a council of bishops from the Eastern Empire. They gathered in Constantinople along with representatives from Pope Vigilius back in the Western Empire. At the Fifth Ecumenical Council, the Emperor announced he no longer wished to advocate the belief in reincarnation. This may have something to do with the idea that man can be "immortal" through multiple lives. Although this Council was well documented, the reason behind the Emperor's decision was never noted. After a show of hands, the bishops agreed with the Emperor. They found three chapters in the Bible mentioning reincarnation and decided to remove those chapters. The Pope agreed with the Council but did so only because he did not want the Eastern Empire to appear "advanced" to the Western Empire. Bibles were collected throughout the two Christian Empires, they were burned and completely rewritten removing the offending three chapters. As an outsider, I find it interesting that whims of one man can cause the word of God to be completely rewritten. >>
From When I die will I come back?
I quote a third reference:
<< There is strong evidence (e.g. Dead Sea Scrolls) that Jesus of Nazareth was a member of the Jewish Essene Sect. It is speculated often that one of the main reasons the Catholic Church has chosen not to release all the Dead Sea Scrolls for public scrutiny is because they contain unequivocal evidence within them that Jesus was a member of the Essene sect and that that sect strongly believed in reincarnation. Reincarnation was a widely held belief amongst many early 'Christians' (as well as some Jewish sects, the Essenes, the Gnostics and some Pharisees) up until AD 553, when the 5th Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church convened by the Roman Emperor Justinian at Constantinople declared the concept to be "an anathema". >>
<< It should be clearly understood that the concept of reincarnation is a serious threat to the power and authority of the Christian Church because it unequivocally renders as irrelevant the self appointed role of the Christian Clergy to "absolve sin and save sinners from descending into eternal hell". >>
Taken from Bible Concepts In Support Of Esoteric Concepts.
Here is a fourth reference to Roman Emperor Justinian having ordered all passages and chapters about reincarnation in the Bible to be omitted:
<< At the Fifth Ecumenical Church Council at Constantinople in 553 A.D., under the reign of the Emperor Justinian, several books, including those on reincarnation, were removed from the Bible and many other changes in the text were made. Resisting these distortions, the Coptic Templar Order continued to preserve the pure teachings and records of the life of Jesus through the centuries. >>
Taken from the Coptic Fellowship Home Page.
There appears to be some question as to the exact year that Emperor Justinian ordered all references to reincarnation to be omitted from the Bible (533 AD or 553 AD). However, all of them state that it occurred in the Sixth Century and during the Fifth Ecumenical Council.
By the way, it is also mentioned in Life Between Life by Joel L.Whitton, M.D., Ph.D. & Joe Fisher.
I quote from pages 62-63:
<< Not until the fourth century, when Christianity evolved from harried bands of secret worshippers to an institution ripe for political manipulation, did opposition develop to reincarnation in Christian theology. The new Christian-State alliance, aiming for the cultivated dependence on the masses, felt threatened by those who believed in rebirth because such Christians tended to be self-reliant, free-thinking individuals whose subservience could not be guaranteed. Neither to be induced by promises of heavenly bliss nor intimidated by threats of hellfire, they were branded as heretics (the word “heretic” means, at root, nothing more pernicious than one who is “able to choose”). Nevertheless, there was no official edict condemning the doctrine of reincarnation across the Roman empire until the year 533 AD, when the Emperor Justinian issued formal ecclesiastical curses against the “monstrous restoration” of rebirth. This censure was followed by persecution to all who refused to surrender their convictions. Resistance, however, was so tenacious – particularly by rebel Christians called the Cathars – that not until the thirteenth century did the church’s campaign of terror and slaughter effectively rout reincarnational thinking in the West. >>
Here’s a page which addresses Emperor Justinian’s specific edicts against the doctrine of reincarnation: Medieval Sourcebook: Fifth Ecumenical Council: Constantinople II, 553.
I quote:
<< If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. >>
<< Whoever says or thinks that human souls pre-existed, i.e., that they had previously been spirits and holy powers, but that, satiated with the vision of God, they had turned to evil, and in this way the divine love in them had died out (apyugeisas) and they had therefore become souls (yukas) and had been condemned to punishment in bodies, shall be anathema. >>
It didn’t pay to be a reincarnationist Christian in those days, to say the least.
A counterargument to this is that the infamous "Three Chapters" that were omitted by Emperor Justinian were not "true chapters" of the Bible. Yes, they are not considered "true chapters" by many Christians today precisely because of their omission in the Sixth Century.
The very fact that Emperor Justinian ordered their omission indicates that they were part of official biblical scripture at that time. Many present-day bible scholars don't consider them to be "valid chapters" simply because that is what they were taught -- in part from the edicts of a long dead Roman Emperor whose authority they do not question. Many "scholars" don't even know about Justinian's decision to omit reincarnation from Christendom because they were never taught that in school.
In the Sixth Century, the theological authority of the Christian clergy could be overruled by the government. Roman Emperor Justinian, who did indeed believe that the "Three Chapters" were part of the Bible, felt threatened by their references to reincarnation and had them officially removed.
One cannot order the removal of something that didn't exist in the first place
Then there is the counterargument that Origen was not an author of the Bible. Yes, that is true. Regardless, he is considered to be an early church leader who was highly influential and who espoused the doctrine of reincarnation. Three centuries later Emperor Justinian felt threatened by Origen's writings in spreading the doctrine of reincarnation in Christendom and therefore put his teachings in a heretical light.
Reincarnation was part of the belief system of many if not most early Christians. It is not as prevalent today in "official scripture" simply because church leaders over the centuries desired greater control over the Christian population and felt that ending a belief in reincarnation was one of the ways with which to do this.
In short, church corruption is the reason why most Christians today, especially fundamentalist Christians, do not believe in the doctrine of reincarnation
The following is from the free online encyclopedia called Wikipedia:
<< Parallels to reincarnation are often seen by outsiders in the Christian concepts of rebirth and resurrection which are taught by all mainstream branches of Christianity (orthodox, catholic, protestant) as well as most non-traditional branches (Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.). But these groups reject the concept of reincarnation, though some smaller groups (Christian gnostics, the Liberal Catholic Church, and the Christian Community) do include the concept of reincarnation in their doctrine. >>
<< In related groups it is frequently maintained, based on certain Bible texts and church fathers (especially Origen), that the early Christians did believe in reincarnation and that the reincarnation proofs had been destroyed by the church later on. >>
Despite Emperor Justinian's meddling, some passages in the Bible still remain that point to a belief in reincarnation. I quote the same site:
<< Bible verses used as proof texts for the reincarnation teachings of early Christians are, e.g. Mt 11:14 and 17:12f and John 9,1 ff. Read with a new-age worldview, these texts can indeed be interpreted as referring to reincarnation. Jesus identifies John the Baptist as the returning prophet Elijah in Matthews 11:14. >>
<< When the disciples ask Jesus about a blind man who had sinned: John 9:2 (NIV) His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
John 9:34 (NIV) To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.
In the Old Testament, David writes:
Psalms 51:5 (NIV) Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. >>
Here is more on the early church father known as Origen, again from the above site:
<< It is also maintained that the 3rd century church father Origen had been an adherent of reincarnation. Origen stood for the pre-existence of the soul -- the concept that the human soul existed already before birth. "The soul has neither beginning nor end... [They] come into this world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defeats of their previous lives" (De Principiis). He knew the teachings of reincarnation and mentions them in his writings. In his exegesis of the above Bible verses, he discusses how they are interpreted by adherents of reincarnation. >>
[edit on 5-3-2005 by Paul_Richard]
reply posted on 5-3-2005 @ 05:04 PM by Nygdan
Originally posted by Iasion
The legend that the Council of Nicea removed re-incarnation from the Bible (as well as another legend about it chosing the books of the Bible) is very common on the internet, and I see it popped up here again.
Indeed, I had thought that the canon was formalized at it also, until
Roger Pearse has an excellent essay detailing these accounts of the Council, showing they made no mention of re-incarnation :
www.tertullian.org...
pearse really does have a great collection of stuff on those pages. And whats better is that he's available for discussion on that and almost anything on soc.hist.ancient and other newsgroups! A very nice fellow too!
What if all the major religions started out with the same story and it slowly diverged from there
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