Council of Nicea - NO reincarnation, NO books of the Bible

Gday,

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
Thank you. for the links.

But it seems they do not back you up.

Yes they do.
They confirm exactly what I said.

Which is clear from your total refusal to address the facts, from the way you FAIL to address the evidence I brought up. From the way you repeatedly FAIL to provide ANY evidence to support your claim.

The facts are clear - the Council of Nicea did NOT have anything to do with choosing the books of the bible. Anyone who knows the history will know that.

You made a false claim, now you can't admit you were wrong.
Sad.


K.


[edit on 21-3-2010 by Kapyong]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Iasion

 

Regardless of whether Nicea tampered with the Bible it is apparent that there are books which exist that did not make it into the final Bible including numerous Gospels that were tossed out. Further changes to Christian beliefs were made by the Romans.

My belief is that the moment Christianity became a State Sponsored religion it went from being about love and Jesus' teachings and became bastardized. The Romans and later people in power used it to uphold horrors untold, torture, genocide, forced conversions, inquisitions and the suppression of science.

The Nicea Council may not have called all the shots but that does not mean the Bible didn't change over time. I do not think reincarnation is explicitly mentioned in the Bible or that it ever was in any of the books though something like it might have been mentioned.

The Bible we ended up with is imperfect and contradicts itself, whoever it was that decided on what books made it in, even if they didn't cover it up, did a poor job as the book presents a wishy-washy bipolar deity half merciful and half genocidal. Even if reincarnation had made it into the Bible what difference would it make? Why cover-up reincarnation at all, what threat did it pose to those in power? How could it have posed any more threat than a Carpenter's belief that the meek would inherit the Earth and that a poor man's salvation was like passing a camel through the eye of a needle?

This post sums up everything as obviously the only voice to be heard goes to the victor. Hence those who believe that the ones who orchestrated the Holy Bible to have pure intention are most probably the ones who are still trying to find WMD's in Iraq... so go figure THE TPTB hold all the Friggin ACES and stop quoting TPTB adapations of quotes of history that has been adapted to their own world dimension! PERIOD... To those that can see... look. To those that can hear...Listen !

[edit on 21-3-2010 by Epsillion70]

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
Thank you. for the links.

But it seems they do not back you up.

Yes they do.
They confirm exactly what I said.

Then point it out to me ! I'm not playing a game with you !
I'm giving my honest opinion.

Which is clear from your total refusal to address the facts, from the way you FAIL to address the evidence I brought up. From the way you repeatedly FAIL to provide ANY evidence to support your claim.

I'm sorry. Which facts ?
The questionable evidence you gave. Well... It did not convince me.

The facts are clear - the Council of Nicea did NOT have anything to do with choosing the books of the bible. Anyone who knows the history will know that. You made a false claim, now you can't admit you were wrong.
Sad.

If you can provide "the facts" with another source, you are more then welcome. I will read it again.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but let me show you.
In my first post I wrote this.

For all the ants in the world are together heavier then it's humans.

Reincarnation was thousands of years before and a little less after it around. You just have to walk towards the East and not the West.

Then, is every evidence on the Internet 100 % reliable ?!!

For example use a translation program to translate a text.
It always comes out with flaws and have of it what is right only is the translation of that single word. The context ripped to shreds !

And translation problems are the least of the problems.

Imagine what a evil corrupting mind can do with a text !

In the second I wrote this.

Ok you're right.

They did however chose what was left out.
If you are so convinced they didn't

Please convince me ?

I did not write the OP and except my last post I most definitely did not claimed they did.
You however did not convince me yet.

You be pleased to hear I'll will be happy to apologize to you.
But convince me first.
Tell me exactly where and what the evidence is and tell me why you think so.

Playing a game just by saying yes or no. will not benefit anybody and may even end up in an unwanted situation.
I'd like to avoid that and have a civil discussion. Do you ?

hI/
Hope to help a little....
Council of Nicaea....
MYTHS of the council of Nicaea

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by helen670


Thank you .

I watched the video and I say part of it is full of it. Not true.
The other part is the creator of the vid. He bothers me because he is obviously Christian. Therefore his opinion isn't neutral.

It did provide me with a lead to investigate.

I guess I,ve agreed to apologize . If he even bothers to reply my last post to him of course.

Thank you for your help.

reply to post by Paul_Richard


Specifically which chapters or books were the ones that were removed???

I have heard many a reference to them but no mention of exactly which chapters/verses or books were removed.

Can anyone point the way to them??? I am specifically interested in those that reference reincarnation.




[edit on 21-3-2010 by Emptiness Dancing]

Gday,

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
Then point it out to me ! I'm not playing a game with you !
I'm giving my honest opinion.

I did point it out you.
But you just refused to read it.

Here, for instance, I linked to the actual canons of the Council of Nicea - but you've never even HEARD of this document, and you didn't even read it:
www.newadvent.org...

It's the actual official record of what happened at the council - the formal document that was sent to all the churches telling them what to believe.

The KEY piece of evidence in this case - the actual minutes of the meeting.

Guess what?
They say NOTHING about choosing the books of the bible.
Nothing.

This is clear and present evidence.
But you refused to even LOOK at it !

So, here is a copy right here in the thread - will you even READ it then?



The Ecthesis of the Synod at Nice.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten (γεννηθέντα), not made, being of one substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) with the Father. By whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down [from heaven] and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the quick and the dead. And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost. And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not (ἤν ποτε ὅτε οὐκ ἦν), or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion — all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.

The Canons
Canon 1

If any one in sickness has been subjected by physicians to a surgical operation, or if he has been castrated by barbarians, let him remain among the clergy; but, if any one in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such an one, if [already] enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who wilfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men the Canon admits to the clergy.

Canon 2

Forasmuch as, either from necessity, or through the urgency of individuals, many things have been done contrary to the Ecclesiastical canon, so that men just converted from heathenism to the faith, and who have been instructed but a little while, are straightway brought to the spiritual laver, and as soon as they have been baptized, are advanced to the episcopate or the presbyterate, it has seemed right to us that for the time to come no such thing shall be done. For to the catechumen himself there is need of time and of a longer trial after baptism. For the saying is clear, "Not a novice; lest, being lifted up with ""pride, he fall into condemnation and the snare of the devil." But if, as time goes on, any sensual sin should be found out about the person, and he should be convicted by two or three witnesses, let him cease from the clerical office. And whoso shall transgress these [enactments] will imperil his own clerical position, as a person who presumes to disobey the great Synod.

Canon 3

The great Synod has stringently forbidden any bishop, presbyter, deacon, or any one of the clergy whatever, to have a subintroducta dwelling with him, except only a mother, or sister, or aunt, or such persons only as are beyond all suspicion.

Canon 4

It is by all means proper that a bishop should be appointed by all the bishops in the province; but should this be difficult, either on account of urgent necessity or because of distance, three at least should meet together, and the suffrages of the absent [bishops] also being given and communicated in writing, then the ordination should take place. But in every province the ratification of what is done should be left to the Metropolitan.

Canon 5

Concerning those, whether of the clergy or of the laity, who have been excommunicated in the several provinces, let the provision of the canon be observed by the bishops which provides that persons cast out by some be not readmitted by others. Nevertheless, inquiry should be made whether they have been excommunicated through captiousness, or contentiousness, or any such like ungracious disposition in the bishop. And, that this matter may have due investigation, it is decreed that in every province synods shall be held twice a year, in order that when all the bishops of the province are assembled together, such questions may by them be thoroughly examined, that so those who have confessedly offended against their bishop, may be seen by all to be for just cause excommunicated, until it shall seem fit to a general meeting of the bishops to pronounce a milder sentence upon them. And let these synods be held, the one before Lent, (that the pure Gift may be offered to God after all bitterness has been put away), and let the second be held about autumn.

Canon 6

Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges. And this is to be universally understood, that if any one be made bishop without the consent of the Metropolitan, the great Synod has declared that such a man ought not to be a bishop. If, however, two or three bishops shall from natural love of contradiction, oppose the common suffrage of the rest, it being reasonable and in accordance with the ecclesiastical law, then let the choice of the majority prevail.

...


[edit on 21-3-2010 by Kapyong]

[edit on 21-3-2010 by Kapyong]

...
Canon 7

Since custom and ancient tradition have prevailed that the Bishop of Ælia [i.e., Jerusalem] should be honoured, let him, saving its due dignity to the Metropolis, have the next place of honour.

Canon 8

Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy. But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will communicate with persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church. Wheresoever, then, whether in villages or in cities, all of the ordained are found to be of these only, let them remain in the clergy, and in the same rank in which they are found. But if they come over where there is a bishop or presbyter of the Catholic Church, it is manifest that the Bishop of the Church must have the bishop's dignity; and he who was named bishop by those who are called Cathari shall have the rank of presbyter, unless it shall seem fit to the Bishop to admit him to partake in the honour of the title. Or, if this should not be satisfactory, then shall the bishop provide for him a place as Chorepiscopus, or presbyter, in order that he may be evidently seen to be of the clergy, and that there may not be two bishops in the city.

Canon 9

If any presbyters have been advanced without examination, or if upon examination they have made confession of crime, and men acting in violation of the canon have laid hands upon them, notwithstanding their confession, such the canon does not admit; for the Catholic Church requires that [only] which is blameless.

Canon 10

If any who have lapsed have been ordained through the ignorance, or even with the previous knowledge of the ordainers, this shall not prejudice the canon of the Church; for when they are discovered they shall be deposed.

Canon 11

Concerning those who have fallen without compulsion, without the spoiling of their property, without danger or the like, as happened during the tyranny of Licinius, the Synod declares that, though they have deserved no clemency, they shall be dealt with mercifully. As many as were communicants, if they heartily repent, shall pass three years among the hearers; for seven years they shall be prostrators; and for two years they shall communicate with the people in prayers, but without oblation.

Canon 12

As many as were called by grace, and displayed the first zeal, having cast aside their military girdles, but afterwards returned, like dogs, to their own vomit, (so that some spent money and by means of gifts regained their military stations); let these, after they have passed the space of three years as hearers, be for ten years prostrators. But in all these cases it is necessary to examine well into their purpose and what their repentance appears to be like. For as many as give evidence of their conversions by deeds, and not pretence, with fear, and tears, and perseverance, and good works, when they have fulfilled their appointed time as hearers, may properly communicate in prayers; and after that the bishop may determine yet more favourably concerning them. But those who take [the matter] with indifference, and who think the form of [not] entering the Church is sufficient for their conversion, must fulfil the whole time.

Canon 13

Concerning the departing, the ancient canonical law is still to be maintained, to wit, that, if any man be at the point of death, he must not be deprived of the last and most indispensable Viaticum. But, if any one should be restored to health again who has received the communion when his life was despaired of, let him remain among those who communicate in prayers only. But in general, and in the case of any dying person whatsoever asking to receive the Eucharist, let the Bishop, after examination made, give it him.

Canon 14

Concerning catechumens who have lapsed, the holy and great Synod has decreed that, after they have passed three years only as hearers, they shall pray with the catechumens.

Canon 15

On account of the great disturbance and discords that occur, it is decreed that the custom prevailing in certain places contrary to the Canon, must wholly be done away; so that neither bishop, presbyter, nor deacon shall pass from city to city. And if any one, after this decree of the holy and great Synod, shall attempt any such thing, or continue in any such course, his proceedings shall be utterly void, and he shall be restored to the Church for which he was ordained bishop or presbyter.

Canon 16

Neither presbyters, nor deacons, nor any others enrolled among the clergy, who, not having the fear of God before their eyes, nor regarding the ecclesiastical Canon, shall recklessly remove from their own church, ought by any means to be received by another church; but every constraint should be applied to restore them to their own parishes; and, if they will not go, they must be excommunicated. And if anyone shall dare surreptitiously to carry off and in his own Church ordain a man belonging to another, without the consent of his own proper bishop, from whom although he was enrolled in the clergy list he has seceded, let the ordination be void.

Canon 17

Forasmuch as many enrolled among the Clergy, following covetousness and lust of gain, have forgotten the divine Scripture, which says, "He has not given his money upon usury," and in lending money ask the hundredth of the sum [as monthly interest], the holy and great Synod thinks it just that if after this decree any one be found to receive usury, whether he accomplish it by secret transaction or otherwise, as by demanding the whole and one half, or by using any other contrivance whatever for filthy lucre's sake, he shall be deposed from the clergy and his name stricken from the list.

...

...

Canon 17

Forasmuch as many enrolled among the Clergy, following covetousness and lust of gain, have forgotten the divine Scripture, which says, "He has not given his money upon usury," and in lending money ask the hundredth of the sum [as monthly interest], the holy and great Synod thinks it just that if after this decree any one be found to receive usury, whether he accomplish it by secret transaction or otherwise, as by demanding the whole and one half, or by using any other contrivance whatever for filthy lucre's sake, he shall be deposed from the clergy and his name stricken from the list.

Canon 18

It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great Synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters, whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer. And this also has been made known, that certain deacons now touch the Eucharist even before the bishops. Let all such practices be utterly done away, and let the deacons remain within their own bounds, knowing that they are the ministers of the bishop and the inferiors of the presbyters. Let them receive the Eucharist according to their order, after the presbyters, and let either the bishop or the presbyter administer to them. Furthermore, let not the deacons sit among the presbyters, for that is contrary to canon and order. And if, after this decree, any one shall refuse to obey, let him be deposed from the diaconate.

Canon 19

Concerning the Paulianists who have flown for refuge to the Catholic Church, it has been decreed that they must by all means be rebaptized; and if any of them who in past time have been numbered among their clergy should be found blameless and without reproach, let them be rebaptized and ordained by the Bishop of the Catholic Church; but if the examination should discover them to be unfit, they ought to be deposed. Likewise in the case of their deaconesses, and generally in the case of those who have been enrolled among their clergy, let the same form be observed. And we mean by deaconesses such as have assumed the habit, but who, since they have no imposition of hands, are to be numbered only among the laity.

Canon 20

Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore, to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing.
...


K.

Gday,

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
I'm sorry. Which facts ?
The questionable evidence you gave. Well... It did not convince me.

You didn't even READ it.
You've never even HEARD of the Canons of the Council of Nicea - and you refuse to read it. The key document whihc contains the facts.

You won't even look at it.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
If you can provide "the facts" with another source, you are more then welcome. I will read it again.

Why bother?
You didn't read what I linked first time.

You simply refuse to even LOOK at the evidence.

And -
you have still FAILED to say WHY you think they chose the books of the bible?

WHY?
Who told you they did?

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
Then, is every evidence on the Internet 100 % reliable ?!!
For example use a translation program to translate a text.
It always comes out with flaws and have of it what is right only is the translation of that single word. The context ripped to shreds !

What a load of bollocks.


The canons of the council of Nicea is an ancient document - it is found on the internet, and in books and encyclopedias etc.

But YOU pretend this official church document is false ?!

The only reason you do that is because you got it wrong, ut now you can't admit it.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
Tell me exactly where and what the evidence is and tell me why you think so.

Yawn.
I did !

You refused to read it.
I predict you will continue to do so.

You will NEVER read address that document, will you?

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
Playing a game just by saying yes or no. will not benefit anybody and may even end up in an unwanted situation. I'd like to avoid that and have a civil discussion. Do you ?

From what we have sween so far - you are here to preach your beliefs.
But you just ignore the facts that show you wrong.

Such as the canons of the council - you'll never read them, you'll never deal with the fact they show you wrong.


K.

reply to post by Kapyong


I usually enjoy reading your posts, even if I often disagree with them, but this goes beyond the pale.

Where do you get off introducing things like facts, evidence and logic?

Clearly there are people here who would prefer to believe that the CoN was personally run by Constantine to squash truth, create a false doctrine and determine what is and isn't canonical; regardless of what actually happened.

You sir, should be ashamed.

Eric

reply to post by Kapyong


With all do respect. But because of Helen who was so friendly to point out a start for me I already found myself that according to what I've read there were no books discussed at all.

But now starts the my problem. I am sure that your records witch I did read by the way. come from a source I have reasons for questioning it's reliability.
What I tried to say before. You can't proof anything with any biblical text because they are the only source that proof they proof what is questioned and proof it.

Now with this said. Do you understand why I do not see proof in your evidence ?

I do not need proof by the way to convince me on this matter.
First of all because of experiences in the past and my understanding of the big picture because of it. I am fully aware of faith and you don't have to proof anything for me to fully accept your faith. When it comes to a point where you claim to have actual proof then show me.
My experience however is that a few good arguments ( instead of quoting a text I have a hard time to believe anyway ) works for me a lot better. It makes my perspective change and as it changes the possibility to change my mind becomes available.

I'm sorry I questioned your proof but you could have made it a bit easier for me you know.

Originally posted by Seapeople
Well in the year 335 Constantine specifically stated that he wanted to remove all references to reincarnation from the bible.

Did he, indeed? Do you have a reference for this curious claim?

In 553 ad, the councel of Nicea in Constantinople had a main purpose, and it was to ratify those specific thoughts.
The entire purpose of the conference was for this.

Likewise?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

reply to post by pao


the Greek Septuagint written 300 years before Christ (before the council of Nicaea) still dosent speak reincarnation.

YOU HAVE NOTHING ON US(CHRIST FOLLOWERS) YOU KNOW IT I KNOW IT