Yes, another thread about Atlantis.

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: Harte

Sorry for the delayed response back.

Are you calling into question Plato, or Critias?

It's pretty certain that the conversations in all the Dialogues are made up.

So... Plato.
He's the only one talking there.

I pointed out that Plato used the "true story" literary device in several other dialogues so it's not surprising that he would use it in Critias.

Harte

a reply to: Harte



Fair criticism. It's the confusing issue with Plato and his dialogs isn't it. Is he reporting on what he heard or did he make it all up in an effort to discuss his concepts of forms? We have to make a judgement call on this before we start down the road of dealing with the Atlantis puzzle.

If we assume that Plato at this time was reporting on conversations his witnessed, then we can call into question Critias and his understandings of the Athenian/Atlantean war. On the other hand if we were to assume that Plato just made it all up then questions can be raised about the value of Plato's Academy, or even the value of Alexander the Great's tutor Aristotle.

Coming to terms with how we view Plato's writings is the first step in looking for Atlantis. I take it that your view on Atlantis is that it's a metaphoric place. If this is true then you should come back when I address that possibility. As for now though I'm going about this thread as if Atlantis is a real world place.

To paraphrase Plato; "In order to understand the prefect form, we must first accept and view the imperfect". In other words (Harte, you seem to be someone that would understand this, but I'm still typing it for others to read) in order to understand Atlantis, we must look at it as a real place.

NO, I haven't forgotten this thread, I'm waiting for my copy of Herodotus' Histories to arrive. There is an interesting area in his discussions about geography where Herodotus states the three great continents. Asia, Europe, and Libya it is because of this I wanted to read his thoughts about this since Herodotus claims that the Phoenicians had navigated around the entirety of Libya, but he had doubts since the Phoenicians had stated that the sun was in the wrong place in the sky. This would be correct if you were tracking the sun and sailed south across the equator.

Why does this matter? According to Herodotus the territory of Atlas was located near Libya. Understanding what is meant by Libya is important, does Herodotus mean Africa or was Libya different geologically back then than it is now? A simple Google Earth view of Libya could make it look like a possible location of Atlantis. As seen below:

If the sand was supersaturated with water, then the point Critias makes about travel being blocked by mud could be strangely true, and the flooding could be water leaving the area rather then entering.

I'll update some thoughts after reading Herodotus' Histories. There could be something more to this Atlantis tale then we all first thought (and before anyone asks, points out, or attacks me I already know that Herodotus never mentions Atlantis by name. This doesn't mean that he doesn't hints at it, after all if the story is known at his time but a negative slant is taken on the Atlantean Empire then why should we expect a direct naming of it)

Or, you could just read it for free online here.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte
Or, you could just read it for free online here.

Harte

Thank you for the link, but there's something about a real book in ones hand that makes research engaging.

Ok so I came across a few things that might change the way we look at clues instead of taking the dates at face value. The first item is about a miscalculation on an Antarctic ice shelf collapse:
Video from Science View NHK Japan

Carbon-14 is well known for its use in measuring the ages of very old things. But it's now being used in some surprising fields of research. And its improved accuracy is rewriting history. It found a 10-thousand year mistake in the dating of an Antarctic ice shelf collapse. In lakebed sediments, it shed new light on the history of Mount Fuji's eruptions. In marine biology, it can be used to trace whale movements, and more! We'll look at some of these exciting new applications.

What this does is change a rise in sea levels from 15000 years ago to only 5000 years ago. So it would be possible that the sea levels increased by 3 meters (9.8 ft) as little as 3000BC. This changes a few understandings as to how and when myths happened or occurred.

The next thing that I came across is that Atlantis may in fact been a mistranslation by Solon or the Egyptian Priest. Herodotus talks about this being a common issues when talking to certain people and certain lands. Though Herodotus does state that it's not hard to understand what they are trying to discuss if asked about details. When I say the Atlantis may be a mistranslation, what I mean is that the name itself may be the mistranslation and not the story.

I'll post more as I learn more information on this topic. Though I will say that given the new information about when the Mediterranean Sea flood, I think that the Rovigo and Ferrara areas of Italy might be the place to look for bit's and pieces of Atlantean ruins (even though they would be covered by and possibly destroyed by glacially displaced earth)

a reply to: Guyfriday

If you want to find a real civilization to connect to the people of Atlantis then you might want to look at the biblical Philistines. They were always warring with the nations within the Mediterranean. The Sea Peoples that invaded Egypt during the reign of Ramesses II have a possible link to the Philistines.

The wiki article on the Sea Peoples makes an interesting statement about the origins of these people.

The Sea Peoples remain unidentified in the eyes of most modern scholars and hypotheses regarding the origin of the various groups are the source of much speculation. Existing theories variously propose equating them with several Aegean tribes, raiders from Central Europe, scattered soldiers who turned to piracy or who had become refugees, and links with natural disasters such as earthquakes or climatic shifts.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

They were displaced from their homeland and became refugees looking to stake a claim within the Mediterranean. The survivors of Atlantis had to flee the sinking island. Another interesting feature about the Philistines is that their main god Dagon is half human and half fish. Poseidon, the sea god, is the main god of the Atlanteans. There are some good connections here but there will never be an exact match to the whole tale.

I also believe the Philistines influenced the mythology of the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians of Canaan. A number of ancient Phoenician port names match some of the naming in the Atlantis tale. One of mention is Gades.

I know that using the bible as means to prove something as fact is futile to the archaeological community. There are no other factual sources to prove the existence of Atlantis so another "myth" (to some) has to come to the aid.

a reply to: lostinspace

I believe you are on to something.

I suspect "Atlantis", the City Island, not the nation, did survive the global flood. It wasn't until some time later that the City Island was destroyed by another more targeted attack.

Once the Island capital was destroyed I would suspect the Army and Navy kept on doing what they did best. Except, there was no King involved. They became freelance.

I suspect the port where the ships were anchored was not at the Island, but further down closer to the Sea, which is now filled with mud and sand.

The main confusion is the Term "Atlantis". It has been used to designate both the Island Capital, and the Global Civilization that was initiated by Poseidon/ Enki. The "Global" Civalization is 400 foot below the waves. The City of Atlantis sets in ruins in the "Eye" of the Sahara, destroyed betyond recognition (There are remenents remaining).

The Bible was written, to write Atlantis, from the History Books. The name changes are becoming quite obvious...
My opinion.

ADDED:

Dagon is half human and half fish. Poseidon, the sea god, is the main god of the Atlanteans.

There is a very good reason for this description. You should hear what the Egyptians have to say about what the "gods" looked like.

a reply to: All Seeing Eye
It's a little more mucky then that. The Greeks weren't a defined nation state buy a collective of people that shared a cultural identity. Atlantis could very well be the same.

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: All Seeing Eye
It's a little more mucky then that. The Greeks weren't a defined nation state buy a collective of people that shared a cultural identity. Atlantis could very well be the same.

It very well could be many of the survivors ended up in the Mediterranean area. After all, they had no home to go back to.

a reply to: All Seeing Eye

I like how you made a connection to the Sumerian Enki god with the Atlantis god. Enki is the god of fresh water and he wears a horned cap.

[qutoe]Enki (also known as Ea, Enkig, Nudimmud, Ninsiku) was the Sumerian god of wisdom, fresh water, intelligence, trickery and mischief, crafts, magic, exorcism, healing, creation, virility, fertility, and art. Iconography depicts him as a bearded man wearing a horned cap and long robes...

www.ancient.eu...

The artwork of the Sea Peoples' invasion of Egypt depict these mysterious people with horned helmets as well. The bull was a sacred animal mentioned in the Critias. The bulls had free range around the temple of Poseidon in the Atlantis tale. The rulers of Atlantis would hunt one of the bulls with their crude implements and sacrifice it over their commandments within the temple.

originally posted by: lostinspace
a reply to: Guyfriday

If you want to find a real civilization to connect to the people of Atlantis then you might want to look at the biblical Philistines. They were always warring with the nations within the Mediterranean. The Sea Peoples that invaded Egypt during the reign of Ramesses II have a possible link to the Philistines.

The wiki article on the Sea Peoples makes an interesting statement about the origins of these people.

The Sea Peoples remain unidentified in the eyes of most modern scholars and hypotheses regarding the origin of the various groups are the source of much speculation. Existing theories variously propose equating them with several Aegean tribes, raiders from Central Europe, scattered soldiers who turned to piracy or who had become refugees, and links with natural disasters such as earthquakes or climatic shifts.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Note that the article says their origin is the source of speculation today
The Egyptians knew who they were though. The names of the different tribes making up the Sea Peoples were inscribed on the walls of Ramesess III's mortuary temple at Medinet Habu.

originally posted by: lostinspaceI also believe the Philistines influenced the mythology of the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians of Canaan. A number of ancient Phoenician port names match some of the naming in the Atlantis tale. One of mention is Gades.

Of course it does. That's what they called it in Plato's time - from the Phoenician name.

Harte

originally posted by: lostinspace
a reply to: Guyfriday

They were displaced from their homeland and became refugees looking to stake a claim within the Mediterranean. The survivors of Atlantis had to flee the sinking island. Another interesting feature about the Philistines is that their main god Dagon is half human and half fish. Poseidon, the sea god, is the main god of the Atlanteans. There are some good connections here but there will never be an exact match to the whole tale.

This illustrates the problem with taking statements from the fringe at face value.
Turns out that the above is a misinterpretation of Dagon's name.

Dagon was the god of fertility and harvest - not the sea. His name was originally thought to come from a Hebrew word for "fish."
Further scholarship has shown that the name almost certainly came from a word meaning "grain."

Harte

originally posted by: lostinspace
a reply to: All Seeing Eye

I like how you made a connection to the Sumerian Enki god with the Atlantis god. Enki is the god of fresh water and he wears a horned cap.

[qutoe]Enki (also known as Ea, Enkig, Nudimmud, Ninsiku) was the Sumerian god of wisdom, fresh water, intelligence, trickery and mischief, crafts, magic, exorcism, healing, creation, virility, fertility, and art. Iconography depicts him as a bearded man wearing a horned cap and long robes...

www.ancient.eu...

The artwork of the Sea Peoples' invasion of Egypt depict these mysterious people with horned helmets as well. The bull was a sacred animal mentioned in the Critias. The bulls had free range around the temple of Poseidon in the Atlantis tale. The rulers of Atlantis would hunt one of the bulls with their crude implements and sacrifice it over their commandments within the temple.


I had not been aware of the "Horned" cap, it sparked a connection. Odin! Might the Vikings themselves been part of the mass migration of survivors looking for a new home?


I believe the history of the Bull originated at a ritual meeting every 5th and 6th year.

These meeting occurred in the temple of Poseidon where the first rulers inscribed the laws on a pillar of orichalcum. First, as required by ancient ceremony, pledges were exchanged. Then a sacred bull was captured and killed. The body was burned as a sacrifice to the god. Then the blood was mixed with wine and poured over the fire as a act of purification for each man.

[Atlantis

It may also be the original inspiration for the Spanish concept of "Bull Fighting".

The timeline for this global society is now in question for me. I looked at ruins which I believe are from Atlantis and it is hard to imagine them being 11,000 years old. They are in what I consider to be in very good condition. Then, I find this...

Solon writes the island existed 9000 years before. This would place the time period in the Early Stone Age. In this period it is hard to imagine the type of agriculture, architecture and sea navigation as described in the story. One explanation for this time period inconsistency is that Solon misinterpreted the Egyptian symbol for “100” for “1000.” If this be the case then Atlantis would have existed 900 years before. This would place the Atlantians in the Middle Bronze Age where they would possess the tools and equipment needed for the development described within the story.

Solon left us in 559 B.C. So that brings the story back to 1400- 1500 B.C., plus 2000 = 3500- 4000 years ago. Which if that being the date then the ruins are only 4 or 5 thousand years old. And that would make more sense.

a reply to: All Seeing Eye



This is a depiction of the Sea People battle of the Delta, 1178 BC Medinet Habu Mortuary Temple of Ramesses III Luxor, Egypt. This sure resembles the Viking look. I wonder when and where the Vikings picked up the use of the horned helmet.

With regards to bull fighting in Spain it can’t be a coincidence that there’s an ancient Phoenician port in Spain by the name Gades. As I said before, Gades is mentioned in the Critias as being one of the territories of Atlantis. Cadiz, Spain is the location of Gades.

I agree that the timeline needs to be adjusted to make things fit better.

a reply to: lostinspace

I agree that the timeline needs to be adjusted to make things fit better.

If Solon did make a error then there is the fit. But it can't be forced, and it must be open to adjustments.

11,000 years ago there was a global flood, is what the evidence is suggesting. Much of the previous Coastal communities, went under the waves, by 400 foot. But the City Island of Atlantis was at a much higher elevation and survived the great flood. This is what I am seeing.

I am also seeing a restart, that failed, at least in Anu's eyes. As Atlantis was under demi god control they started to break the laws of warring against each other, hence your depiction, and the Final destruction of the City Island Capital of Atlantis. This destroyed not only the ability to conduct wars, but destroyed the network of trade.


The gods and demi gods were withdrawn from direct control, and mankind was left to fend for itself.


There is much to the story that is being left out. And for mankind to understand their true origins is absolutely necessary in order for us to move forward.

In each species there are attributes, a set of instincts which is hard wired into that particular species. Not many can argue this point. You might be able to "train" a Lion, a dog, a monkey, etc, but you can never train their instincts out of them.

We humans are no different, we are a culmination of the instincts of what ever life forms were used to create us. And by not informing humanity of our ancestry and the instincts that went along with them, we are never actually given a choice as to which ones we will follow, and which ones to discard.


Certainly, some of us have a core that governs our conduct and understand right from wrong, but at the same time, some of us follow their instincts which are, to be honest, less than human. Hence, people who practice incest, pedophilia, murder, rape, human sacrifice, slavery, people who could care less about others, etc.

A power or force who understood our secret instincts could play those instincts, and control mankind covertly. And the only way to break that control is to expose the truth of our origins and the instincts of both.

On the other side of the isle are those meek, kind, loving, caring individuals who favor the more passive instincts of the other component, which science refuses to acknowledge.

Ill leave that there for now.

a reply to: All Seeing Eye

11,000 years ago there was a global flood, is what the evidence is suggesting. Much of the previous Coastal communities, went under the waves, by 400 foot. But the City Island of Atlantis was at a much higher elevation and survived the great flood. This is what I am seeing.

This is why I posted the links about the C-14 discovery. If true then that would change the date by a few thousand years. The implications would mean that the Flood from the Antarctic ice shelf collapse could have been the same one that damaged the Temple that Medusa served at before her death. Given that the descriptions of her being all snake haired like resembles that of a dead person. these are the clues that are needed in order to solve the Atlantis Puzzle.

originally posted by: Guyfriday
a reply to: All Seeing Eye

11,000 years ago there was a global flood, is what the evidence is suggesting. Much of the previous Coastal communities, went under the waves, by 400 foot. But the City Island of Atlantis was at a much higher elevation and survived the great flood. This is what I am seeing.

This is why I posted the links about the C-14 discovery. If true then that would change the date by a few thousand years. The implications would mean that the Flood from the Antarctic ice shelf collapse could have been the same one that damaged the Temple that Medusa served at before her death. Given that the descriptions of her being all snake haired like resembles that of a dead person. these are the clues that are needed in order to solve the Atlantis Puzzle.

The Arctic Ice Shelf, if I am correct, was about 1500 miles further into Russia, where it could hold vast amounts of Ice/ Water. In other words, the North Magnetic Pole was the original North Pole. If you were to compute the amount of ice this area could hold I'm sure it would equate to about 400 ft seal level.

Given that the descriptions of her being all snake haired like resembles that of a dead person. these are the clues that are needed in order to solve the Atlantis Puzzle.

Those discriptions are not a accident, or mythology. The "gods" had green skin, the demigods had white skin. That is not the only account that reflect a kinship to , fish, snakes, dragons, or comibinations of half snake half human.


There was a edict by the gods that no factual representation of thier appearance in reality was allowed. I cant remeber where I read that, but it does explain the various descriptions. Its not until you conbine all the "attributes" at once that you start to see, they were not human beings, like us. Egyptians used snakes, and green skin. Atlantis, used the fish.
There is a name for this "Species" but I dare use it here.

a reply to: All Seeing Eye



The Wiki

The legend of the green children of Woolpit concerns two children of unusual skin colour who reportedly appeared in the village of Woolpit in Suffolk, England, some time in the 12th century, perhaps during the reign of King Stephen. The children, brother and sister, were of generally normal appearance except for the green colour of their skin. They spoke in an unknown language, and would only eat raw broad beans. Eventually they learned to eat other food and lost their green pallor, but the boy was sickly and died soon after he and his sister were baptised. The girl adjusted to her new life, but she was considered to be "rather loose and wanton in her conduct". After she learned to speak English, the girl explained that she and her brother had come from Saint Martin's Land, a subterranean world inhabited by green people.

So are you saying that these chidren were gods?

Also the Arctic Ice could all melt and not affect the sea levels. The consern has always been the Antarctic ice shelf, since it is holding back ice that is on land and if added to the ocean would displace water increasing sea levels.

a reply to: Guyfriday

So are you saying that these chidren were gods?

No, just a sub breed that had never seen the light of day, till they exited the underworld. The American Indians have tales similar about leaving the underworld and the evil fork tongued devils.

Also the Arctic Ice could all melt and not affect the sea levels.

You might have missed my point. That's true, but if you move the Geographic North Pole back to the Magnetic North Pole, you will find Northern Russia would hold more than double that of the Antarctic.