Trump wants to increase tariffs On china again .

a reply to: luthier

The cheap labor coming over is to fill a labor void. 

The "void" exists because the wages are artificially depressed by "cheap labour coming over". Labour exists on a supply -demand curve... It's why Hugo Chavez hated illegal immigration. It siphoned power away from organized labour by supplying an endless supply of cheap, unregulated labour.

And it's very possible to correct this issue.

Yet so far any "solution" you've forwarded has essentially been economic nihlism...

a reply to: ADVISOR

I'll add to that by saying, quality control is very poor. If I buy steel of a certain hardness from Chinese suppliers, I get back product with a high amount of inclusions. It makes it more difficult to machine and trust It's also wildly inconsistent in hardness factor from plate to plate. Which means to use it, we have to over engineer and also have a high amount of production waste on top of the waste from over engineering. It's also worse for the customer because in addition to purchase cost, you now have higher operating costs associated with the weight/volume gains and MY quality control is worse.

So the "simple" solution is to buy American steel, but every defense contractor is essentially after the same solution, and the American steel industry was gutted by illegal steel dumping by Chinese companies here and abroad. They forced manufacturers out of business or to drastically downscale to control a massive portion of the international market. So now it requires a very long leadtime for production, and time is money (more waste) or worse in this case. The ability to manufacture our own steel (and other products) is a critical strategic asset. We have to protect the capability, which is not just jobs, but the infrastructure, knowledge-base, and experience
This (steel) is not the only industry the Chinese have done this to, but it's a prime example.

Worse, we are funding the Chinese military build-up through a massive trade imbalance built in part on unfair trade practices against us (to say nothing of the morality of propping up a regime who cares nothing for human rights/Western values).

And we cannot fix that by doing nothing and pretending the status quo is necessary on behalf of the profit margins of multinational corporations peddling discretionary consumer products. No one here or abroad will expand their industries to take up the slack until we directly affect the Chinese competitive advantage built through unfair trade and effective slave labor. The most direct way to do that is through tariffs and incentivizing other countries with MFN-status

While we're at it, maybe we can get rid of the unconstitutional income tax and return to tariff based revenue to add a discretionary "tax" on consumers as we did before we handed away monetary policy to private banks, and maybe ease back to the Breton Woods system...

a reply to: luthier

We need smaller government for a reason.
It was more efficient, cheaper and less intrusive.


"Prior to the passage of the 16th Amendment in 1913, the United States government funded its operations mainly through excise taxes, tariffs, customs duties and public land sales."
url=https://pocketsense.com/united-states-government-funded-prior-income-tax-12769.html]Government funded by Tarrifs[/url]

Personally, I don't see why we can't do it again.

Income taxes were never intended to be permanently, or footed by the working class.
It was originally a temporary fix, not a solution or worse an aspects gov became dependants upon.

"State and federal inheritance taxes began after 1900, while the states (but not the federal government) began collecting sales taxes in the 1930s. The United States imposed income taxes briefly during the Civil War and the 1890s. In 1913, the 16th Amendment was ratified, permanently legalizing an income tax."

In 1868, Congress again focused its taxation efforts on tobacco and distilled spirits and eliminated the income tax in 1872. It had a short-lived revival in 1894 and 1895. In the latter year, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the income tax was unconstitutional because it was not apportioned among the states in conformity with the Constitution.

In 1913, the 16th Amendment to the Constitution made the income tax a permanent fixture in the U.S. tax system. The amendment gave Congress legal authority to tax income and resulted in a revenue law that taxed incomes of both individuals and corporations.

America taxes explained


Notice when democrats cut tax's it was a book but when Trump does exactly the same, he's Mr badguy. Which is totally delusional bs.

"On Aug. 10, 1993, President Clinton signed the Revenue Reconciliation Act of 1993 into law. The act's purpose was to reduce by approximately $496 billion the federal deficit that would otherwise accumulate in fiscal years 1994 through 1998. In 1997, Clinton signed another tax act. The act, which cut taxes by $152 billion, included a cut in capital-gains tax for individuals, a $500 per child tax credit, and tax incentives for education."

The government doesn't need more money, especially the money of hard working Americans.

What the government need is responsible spending and limits. If we don't set the political parasites straight, they will continue infesting every aspect with their corruption and greed.

America was once the world's higher quality product supplier. We made quality not quantity.

Made in USA meant something. It should again.

We don't need to depend upon foreign countries for manufacturing products we can manufacture.

Especially when those foreign products are a risk to economy and security.

a reply to: RadioRobert

Absolutely agreed.

There is no reason for any country especially ours, to be crippled by depending on those who would gladly sabotage us.

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

The cheap labor coming over is to fill a labor void. 

The "void" exists because the wages are artificially depressed by "cheap labour coming over". Labour exists on a supply -demand curve... It's why Hugo Chavez hated illegal immigration. It siphoned power away from organized labour by supplying an endless supply of cheap, unregulated labour.

And it's very possible to correct this issue.

Yet so far any "solution" you've forwarded has essentially been economic nihlism...

Here are your fallacies.

Construction wages are low.

They are not. In fact they are growing faster than most other industries. I am a lifelong carpenter who now has his own business making parts for instruments. I worked for 10 years in a flooded labor market of illegals in Texas and made a lot of money flipping houses and installing cabinets at $75 to 100 a unit.

The void exists because society pushed people to go to college and provided scam loans to do it.

My solution is economic nialism.


My solution is to move towards a trade balance slowly year by year with a date set to have a balance.

Manufacturing is gone in America.


It is not. It's in the top 5 highest producers in the us. If you actually look at the us economy from economic output and the ppe you would see the us is no where near the crisis you present with manufacturing.

What you will see is that even with growth in manufacturing profit, it does not equate to bodies punching clocks.

originally posted by: ADVISOR
a reply to: luthier

We need smaller government for a reason.
It was more efficient, cheaper and less intrusive.


"Prior to the passage of the 16th Amendment in 1913, the United States government funded its operations mainly through excise taxes, tariffs, customs duties and public land sales."
url=https://pocketsense.com/united-states-government-funded-prior-income-tax-12769.html]Government funded by Tarrifs[/url]

Personally, I don't see why we can't do it again.

Income taxes were never intended to be permanently, or footed by the working class.
It was originally a temporary fix, not a solution or worse an aspects gov became dependants upon.

"State and federal inheritance taxes began after 1900, while the states (but not the federal government) began collecting sales taxes in the 1930s. The United States imposed income taxes briefly during the Civil War and the 1890s. In 1913, the 16th Amendment was ratified, permanently legalizing an income tax."

In 1868, Congress again focused its taxation efforts on tobacco and distilled spirits and eliminated the income tax in 1872. It had a short-lived revival in 1894 and 1895. In the latter year, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the income tax was unconstitutional because it was not apportioned among the states in conformity with the Constitution.

In 1913, the 16th Amendment to the Constitution made the income tax a permanent fixture in the U.S. tax system. The amendment gave Congress legal authority to tax income and resulted in a revenue law that taxed incomes of both individuals and corporations.

America taxes explained


Notice when democrats cut tax's it was a book but when Trump does exactly the same, he's Mr badguy. Which is totally delusional bs.

"On Aug. 10, 1993, President Clinton signed the Revenue Reconciliation Act of 1993 into law. The act's purpose was to reduce by approximately $496 billion the federal deficit that would otherwise accumulate in fiscal years 1994 through 1998. In 1997, Clinton signed another tax act. The act, which cut taxes by $152 billion, included a cut in capital-gains tax for individuals, a $500 per child tax credit, and tax incentives for education."

The government doesn't need more money, especially the money of hard working Americans.

What the government need is responsible spending and limits. If we don't set the political parasites straight, they will continue infesting every aspect with their corruption and greed.

America was once the world's higher quality product supplier. We made quality not quantity.

Made in USA meant something. It should again.

We don't need to depend upon foreign countries for manufacturing products we can manufacture.

Especially when those foreign products are a risk to economy and security.

Yep. I have a libertarian leaning. I agree.

I don't agree though that the president should have the power to drastically alter the global economy with unilateral taxation (tariffs).

Congress and the regions effected by trade wars like farmers have reps in Congress who can debate the effects of trade policy. They don't have the option with the president.

a reply to: midnightstar

All billionaires are rude jerks. The liberals who chastise Trump as a jerk act like all the other billionaires in this country are nice, down to earth people. Anyways, I agree with everything you've said. We should match China's tariffs, at the very least. Along with all other tariffs. We're waiting a long time to get things from them, but my company doesn't mind. We turn to Amazon or any other American business to find what we can't get in China. Sure it may cost more once we start making things for ourselves, but the quality will trump China's, and as the economy starts to increase we'll be able to start paying more money since we're spending billions more in our own country and across the board raises, along with minimum wage increases, will finally be logically possible.

But first, people have to push aside their hatred for Trump, he's doing exactly what this country needs to flourish again.

All moot points when considering reality.

The reality is we are 100 percent going to fail at this because of trump himself being his own worst enemy.

Attacking our allies and creating tariffs on them assures a loss. We absolutely need our close allies to win against china.

a reply to: LSU2018

Where do you think Amazon gets their goods? The products they make come from china. The others they distribute do as well.

If cnc machines cost twice the price from Germany or the us guess who pays that? You do. If the worker needs more money because of inflation guess who pays that?

The trade war argument is real it just is being improperly handled by a man who really was born with a silver spoon and didn't do well in business or economics school. His businesses are mired by decades of controversy and mismanagement when he was more hands on.

originally posted by: strongfp
Yup bring back the jobs no one wants to do, aand watch the employer hire the minimum amount of workers to offset the costs, work them to death while figuring out how to automate their jobs.

There used to be a job called tack welder, all the person had to do was stand beside the guy who could read the blueprint and put the thing together, and then give a little zap here and there. That was an actual arm of the welding trade where people made good money. In today's world, even just straight welders are a rarity.

The economy isnt what it used to be, and it never will because of the run away consumer capitalism that built the US. Unless they adopt a different form of economics good luck.

Thanks for the negativity. Just what we needed. I guess if Trump had a D beside his name you'd be ecstatic right now.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: midnightstar

Bots already work the fields. Robots are coming online everywhere. AI is the important part where the machines learn on their own. That tech is advancing far faster than people who dont follow tech realize. Robotics and AI are coming for millions of shipping and retail jobs in the next 5-15 years. Research, design, law, building, and defense are going to see massive changes in the next 25.

One AI leads to the next two. And they advance very quickly. Already robotics communicate across the internet and can find solutions to tooling problems and build a fix using CNC machines.

Robots malfunction, they glitch out. Humans don't. They get complacent from time to time but there's always a boss there to get them back in line. We shouldn't be relying on robots to do things a human can do. If a person isn't doing their job, it shouldn't be hard to find a replacement. If you hate your job bad enough that you don't feel like performing then that's not the job for you. And while we're at it, reform welfare and make it available to those actively seeking jobs and limit the time it can be received. People will have to decide whether they want to sink or swim. I guarantee you a "tough love" system like that would get able bodied people off their ass.

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: network dude

What a deflection. For one, Obama was given a mess of an economy and has nothing to do with the current state of the US economy. This is something that has built up since the cold war ended.

Face it, capitalism in the world free market (that the US built by the way) cannot survive against, dare I say it, socialist nations. Or at least have a heavy hand dipping into socialist economics.
Workers in the US are going to want high wages, benefits, etc for jobs that migrant and illegal workers used to do, and will turn to unions.
What will you do then?

Would you support some type of plan or deal where companies suffer consequences for hiring illegals? I would.

a reply to: LSU2018

There is no truth to your statement.

Humans get sick require benefits and cost many times more for employers.

Every company is spending big money on AI. Billions by Ford alone for example.

a reply to: LSU2018

It's already illegal with sever penalties. It just isn't enforced or penalized.


But no. The real solution is get rid of an income tax reliant revenue system, move towards consumption taxes and allow people to work without becoming a citizen with benefits.

a reply to: LSU2018

It's already illegal to hire illegal aliens;

8 U.S. Code § 1324a. Unlawful employment of aliens
www.law.cornell.edu...

a reply to: ADVISOR

Bingo!

Have you ever looked at products offered by an app called "Wish"? They're China made products. I used to have the app because I could buy pretty much anything for under $10. Phone chargers, virtual reality goggles, toys for my kids, action figures, shoes, anything... I ordered a few silly things like the goggles and chargers. That was absolutely the cheapest crap I've ever seen in my life. Then it hit me, this stuff must be made in a sweat shop by people making next to nothing, children, etc. I deleted the app and never used it again. But if you want to see China quality, check it out. I can remember in the 80's, how well quality was when getting things from Japan. Not sure what happened there, but things took a huge dump around the mid to late 90's. I can step on my kids toys and they break. My 80's toys have been run over by my dad when he was leaving for work in the morning and I hadn't cleaned my toys up, and they would have rubber tire marks, but wouldn't break. It's amazing how cheaply made Chinese crap is.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: ADVISOR

Not confused but when a government strongly dictates what consumers can buy and from whom the economy looks a lot more communist.

If you prefer China's cheap crap, order your stuff from them. I prefer quality over quantity. Stress the titty.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: LSU2018

Where do you think Amazon gets their goods? The products they make come from china. The others they distribute do as well.

If cnc machines cost twice the price from Germany or the us guess who pays that? You do. If the worker needs more money because of inflation guess who pays that?

The trade war argument is real it just is being improperly handled by a man who really was born with a silver spoon and didn't do well in business or economics school. His businesses are mired by decades of controversy and mismanagement when he was more hands on.

I don't care where Amazon gets their goods. My point is that when we're waiting on a shipment from China, we can turn to Amazon and get what we're looking for, albeit a lesser amount, within 3 days.

I would rather pay more for better quality and for things made right here in the country I'm a citizen of.

If you think Trump didn't do well in in business or economics school then you're reading too much into rag blogs. They guy was literally the bar for decades. Movie scripts and singers mentioned him for decades when talking about successful, rich people. Even obama set him as the example to follow if you want to be successful and rich. None of that changed until he put an R beside his name. So shove that bull# in someone else's face that is too stupid to look at Trump before 2012.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: LSU2018

There is no truth to your statement.

Humans get sick require benefits and cost many times more for employers.

Every company is spending big money on AI. Billions by Ford alone for example.

Billions that could go back in the pockets of Americans to spend at companies in America and help better the economy.

originally posted by: ADVISOR
a reply to: LSU2018

It's already illegal to hire illegal aliens;

8 U.S. Code § 1324a. Unlawful employment of aliens
www.law.cornell.edu...

Maybe I should have said "crack down" on these businesses.