Trans Activism and Your Red Line

originally posted by: Boadicea

May I ask your opinion/experience of autogynephiles and self-ID? If you have an opinion... and if you care to share... or feel free to just ignore me! That's okay too

I am not a qualified professional, so anything I have to say is just my own opinion based on what I know about, and the contact I have had with trans people. I would say there is definitely some degree of mental illness, but the brain is a very complex organ and many things can go wrong with it. For example, people are fine for someone with a serotonin imbalance to take medication, so what is wrong with someone taking hormones if it helps them feel better?

If people find transitioning is a way to deal with their issues, then who am I to judge them or stand in their way? Life is harsh and mean, and if people can find a way to deal with that which helps them to lead a happier life, then I am all for it. The only caveat is if someone is intent on going down such a major road, they should have professional guidance for their own well-being.

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: Boadicea

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”

― Voltaire

I have thought about that quote many many times while pondering this subject... and it really scares me, because I have some experience with believing absurdities... well, maybe not absurdities.

But I have trusted someone I shouldn't have trusted, although I should have been able to trust her, and I did some pretty stupid things because I refused to believe what was right in front of me. I only hurt myself though!!! But I do see how people could commit atrocities by believing absurdities.

a reply to: MetalChickAmy

I am not a qualified professional, so anything I have to say is just my own opinion based on what I know about, and the contact I have had with trans people.

Understood -- and appreciated!

I would say there is definitely some degree of mental illness, but the brain is a very complex organ and many things can go wrong with it. For example, people are fine for someone with a serotonin imbalance to take medication, so what is wrong with someone taking hormones if it helps them feel better?

This is where my confirmation bias against the medical industry gets in my way, and where I think profit gets in the way of good medicine. Obviously, if there's a medication that helps someone find peace and wholeness, then I sure don't want to deny them that! But I also fear how much "medicine" is given out that causes more damage than good, and how many better medicines are withheld because they are not as profitable. Especially if the former only manages the condition, but the latter actually corrects the condition.

a reply to: MetalChickAmy

The problem is that there is no real evidence that taking hormones not intended for your body does help you feel better. The suicide rates surely do not go down, and I think it's not accurate to say that's because society doesn't accept them. There are quite a few groups who can say the same about society who don't exhibit the same suicide rates. I think there is more going on.

Anecdotally, transition makes me feel worse. This Op Ed was published in the New York Times, of all places.

I feel demonstrably worse since I started on hormones. One reason is that, absent the levees of the closet, years of repressed longing for the girlhood I never had have flooded my consciousness. I am a marshland of regret. Another reason is that I take estrogen — effectively, delayed-release sadness, a little aquamarine pill that more or less guarantees a good weep within six to eight hours.

Like many of my trans friends, I’ve watched my dysphoria balloon since I began transition. I now feel very strongly about the length of my index fingers — enough that I will sometimes shyly unthread my hand from my girlfriend’s as we walk down the street. When she tells me I’m beautiful, I resent it. I’ve been outside. I know what beautiful looks like. Don’t patronize me.

I was not suicidal before hormones. Now I often am.

It doesn't sound like the hormones help at all with feeling any better.

So this person is already admitting to a certain mental instability thanks to the hormones compounding that created by dysphoria. Now, this was how the piece was begun ...

Next Thursday, I will get a vagina. The procedure will last around six hours, and I will be in recovery for at least three months. Until the day I die, my body will regard the vagina as a wound; as a result, it will require regular, painful attention to maintain. This is what I want, but there is no guarantee it will make me happier. In fact, I don’t expect it to. That shouldn’t disqualify me from getting it.

And it is hit on over and over in this Op Ed, that this person doesn't expect to be happy with any of this. She just wants it.

Now, ask yourself what happens to her when she gets all this and decides she wasn't actually supposed to be a she all along and wishes she's never left off being a he? This is why I say that the suicide stat can't all be because society rejects them. I think at least part of it is because they seem to be busy rejecting themselves.

a reply to: ketsuko

I understand that transitioning is not for everyone, and that some people do indeed regret it. It is for this reason that the transition process is a lengthy and involved one. But just like with all medical conditions, it can be misdiagnosed, or the treatment that is effective for many is ineffective for a few.

However, for every story of regret, there are those who recount the opposite. An improved life, self-esteem, and contentment. It is so easy to use the stories from both sides in order to validate our views. But at the end of the day we are still learning, not just in gender dysphoria, but in all areas of humanity. Things will improve as our understanding improves, that is if the crazies don't push us too far backwards.

As for hormones , my girlfriend quit taking the birth control pill years ago because she felt that the hormones were driving her crazy! She did suffer some really bad emotional breakdowns and it certainly didnt help with her general anxiety.
Woman are already pumping themselves with hormones if on birth control and whilst it maybe safe for your body to process the hormones safely the side affects arent exactly nice.

I can only imagine what its like to take a series of hormones for gender dysphoria , considering the body has a normal level of hormone production and humans suffer many different hormonal imbalances even without taking hormones. So the side affects arent exactly going to be in any way good.
I think there is also an aspect of the pharmaceutical companies being involved , where there is money to be made they will jump at the chance to push their products on society!
Side affects of any drug can be damaging and the side affects often cause problems which can exceed the initial problem.

For those who will need to take hormones for the rest of their lives leaves them in debt to a chemical just to feel normal.

a reply to: sapien82

I know how that goes! I haven't actually used any forms of hormonal birth control for years. At one point, a combo of hormonal birth control and a medication used to help prevent migraines completely destabilized my moods, and at another point, I stopped taking the pill and realized that my migraines got so much better. So my husband and I just decided it was better for me not to go back on the pill at that point.

I haven't regretted it since.

But, yes, taking hormones your own body doesn't produce isn't always an easy thing. Voice of experience.

Quite simply, I dont think we know for sure what is the best and its still gonna be a trial and error period for awhile. Also everyone is different. I know 2 friends that have suffered from gender dysphoria, and I have gone into long in depth conversations with both of them about it. The fact is they both knew things and kept them hidden before they ever really knew gender dysphoria was a thing. They're both college age. They feel certain things about themselves both ways. The one thing I can say is that it is very real, this isnt something that either of them just began feeling on a whim and suddenly decided they want to be, these are things they both noticed and felt for years. I also dont think transitioning would make them any happier than they are now like it would for some others because of the confusion they still feel on a daily basis.

My personal feeling is that isnt a mental illness in an exact sense of the word. I think it can be the cause of mental illness because of what it can do to a person. There is no one best solution right now for anyone, it has to be on a case by case basis and it needs to be a slow thoughtout process. Right now for the most part I think it is.

As far as kids, no parent should ever be telling their child they are the wrong gender. That is just horrible. If a younger child feels something like that I think it would be appropriate to take them to a licensed professional and let them work out what they are feeling, and I think there is a certain age where it is ok to let them know this is a thing, but obviously nothing should ever be forced on any of them.

a reply to: Boadicea

My redline has been crossed.

My vernacular will now revert back to LGB from this day forth!

I'm going to make LGB great again.

a reply to: trb71

As far as kids, no parent should ever be telling their child they are the wrong gender. That is just horrible.

This is heart wrenching to me. I can't imagine having anything less than absolute acceptance and unconditional love exactly as they are, and that's what I would be telling them, and showing them. I know parents are trying to do the right thing and think they are doing the right thing, but I couldn't do it. I could never encourage chemically or surgically mutilating a healthy body... not for any kind of cosmetic reason!

I would probably let them indulge themselves to whatever extent was practical, but I would still make it clear that clothes don't make the person, and inner beauty is far more valuable than outer. Which is exactly how I did raise my kids. The values I taught them were values everyone should live -- not one sex or the other. They both tell me that they didn't feel like I treated either one of them differently because of their gender. That I was pretty neutral -- beyond the physical realities and necessities, of course.

A big part of me wonders why these gender roles and stereotypes are still even an issue! I don't understand what parents are teaching kids or what kind of example is being set with regards to gender. I don't get it.

originally posted by: SKEPTEK
a reply to: Boadicea

My redline has been crossed.

My vernacular will now revert back to LGB from this day forth!

I'm going to make LGB great again.

That will make many in the community very very happy.

You GO, Skeptek!!!

I just saw this. When I say I am worried about heterosexual autogynephiles and self-id and entry to women's places, it's because of things like this:

Warning after transgender sex offender placed in women’s hostel

A transgender sex offender who targeted girls in supermarket toilets was living in a women-only hostel after her conviction.

Make no mistake, they knew exactly what this male-bodied person had done to girls in the women's bathroom, and STILL placed him in another space with vulnerable women and girls. They KNEW.

Katie Dolatowski, 18, avoided a prison sentence for sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl in Morrisons, Kirkcaldy, and filming a 12-year-old over a cubicle in Asda, Dunfermline.

A women’s group has warned other female residents could have been put in danger by her presence in the supported accommodation in Fife, which has a shared bathroom.

It is understood she was moved into her own accommodation shortly after The Courier discovered where she had been living.

If they were able to move the offender that quickly after it was reported by media, why couldn't they find their "own accommodation" to begin with? Would they have moved the offender at all if it hadn't been reported? Probably only after he had committed new sexual offenses.

a reply to: Boadicea
It's pretty damn absurd. Consider the following:

"Man, I saw this fight between a woman and a trans woman. The woman kicked the trans woman in her balls."

Which brings me to another quote:

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups-

George Carlin

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Hecate666
what also needs to be looked at is the prevalence of the idea that trans people are out to get us
when in reality there are very few trans people who make themselves publicly known and just want to keep themselves to themselves like most people do .

Honestly, pro-trans people need to stop thinking that we all believe "trans are out to get us!" Seriously, that's not real. I live in what other people call flyover country where Trump won by 20+ points and it's not an issue.

The issue is if/when we see a dude who is obviously a dude go into the lady's room.

The concern is not that people who believe they are trans will exploit it.

The concern IS that perfectly heterosexual perverts (aka not trans people) will exploit society's leniency to allow them into locker rooms and showers so they can be voyeurs or worse.

Thank you! I live in flyover country too, and you nailed it. I've tried till I'm blue in the face to explain the whole bathroom view to ...some people... but they simply refuse to hear what I'm saying and insist that I'm trans-phobic. And that's it in a nutshell--we're not worried about trans people in the bathrooms. We're worried about pervs PRETENDING to be trans in the bathrooms, and that if said pervs do decide to perv in the bathrooms, that we'll just be accused of being trans-phobic.

originally posted by: Boadicea

I do not for the life of me understand it, but there seem to be many reasons.... and many excuses. From men who don't think it's their problem to solve, to men who think women deserve whatever abuse they receive, and everything in between.

And in terms of this discussion, I find it very very disturbing that so many men who identify as trans are so quick to threaten women with their male appendage as a violent weapon...

OMG YES. I see this all over social media. Trans "women" threatening real women with their penises. What???

originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: Boadicea

Yes, humoring them will only make it worse.

I posted something about this on another thread. This is a disorder closely related to the "trans" disorder.

I didn't watch the video but I'm familiar with the disorder. I fail to see how gender dysphoria is in any way different from this. And the only answer anyone has to "what's the freakin difference?" is feelings.

I think the demand for social awareness aspect is advancing quicker than the actual science of transgenderism
so we have to tread carefully because , something is definitely happening here which we have yet to comprehend.
So the best thing we can do is just show compassion , and work within the confines of the law at present to make sure we dont cause any more suffering !

However we cant allow the social aspect to dictate the law and the science

a reply to: riiver

And that's it in a nutshell--we're not worried about trans people in the bathrooms. We're worried about pervs PRETENDING to be trans in the bathrooms...

I'm worried about BOTH. The autogynephile trans persons have the same rates and patterns of violence as other men -- including sexual violence. But as long as self-ID allows any man "claiming" to be a woman into women's spaces, any and every man is allowed in women's spaces, and any and every pervert is allowed in women's spaces.

...and that if said pervs do decide to perv in the bathrooms, that we'll just be accused of being trans-phobic.

We will.

There is a case in Georgia where a 5-year-old was sexually assaulted by an older "transgender" student in the bathrooms. When the mother reported the case to school, the school reported the MOTHER as the responsible party and sent Child Services after her.

originally posted by: sapien82
I think the demand for social awareness aspect is advancing quicker than the actual science of transgenderism
so we have to tread carefully because , something is definitely happening here which we have yet to comprehend.

I think you're right about that. And I''m most suspicious about this because there is soooooooooo much we don't understand, but the Trans Activists are doing their damnedest to shut down research, while political critters are demanding and pushing through laws on basically a whim. And I'm keeping in mind that our political critters are some pretty creepy perverts too... who knows what their intentions (hopes?) are!

So the best thing we can do is just show compassion , and work within the confines of the law at present to make sure we dont cause any more suffering !

However we cant allow the social aspect to dictate the law and the science

I have much compassion for the gender dysphoric, and even for the autogynephiles -- just not as they would want. But there are predators and other unsavory characters in the mix who have absolutely no compassion or regard or respect for anyone else, and we do have to protect and preserve everyone's rights. Not just the transgender population.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: MetalChickAmy

I am not a qualified professional, so anything I have to say is just my own opinion based on what I know about, and the contact I have had with trans people.

Understood -- and appreciated!

I would say there is definitely some degree of mental illness, but the brain is a very complex organ and many things can go wrong with it. For example, people are fine for someone with a serotonin imbalance to take medication, so what is wrong with someone taking hormones if it helps them feel better?

This is where my confirmation bias against the medical industry gets in my way, and where I think profit gets in the way of good medicine. Obviously, if there's a medication that helps someone find peace and wholeness, then I sure don't want to deny them that! But I also fear how much "medicine" is given out that causes more damage than good, and how many better medicines are withheld because they are not as profitable. Especially if the former only manages the condition, but the latter actually corrects the condition.

Have you read "An American Sickness" by Rosenthal? It is happening already. "Confirmation bias" or a reasonable response based on past history and reality? I'd argue the latter.