NTS They do by nature what the law requires

a reply to: Joecroft

I think people were saved then much the same as they are saved now. Sure, there were no Christian writings in the old days. There was no Bible of any kind, everything was transmitted orally. Eventually some scrolls were written.

I started this line of thought here by mentioning Melchizedek. According to Who Was Melchizedek and Why Was He So Important?

Psalm 110: is talking about Jesus, “’You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.’” The Matthew Henry Concise Commentary said this about the Psalm:

“[Jesus] is the Priest of the order of Melchizedek, which was before that of Aaron, and on many accounts superior to it, and a more lively representation of Christ's priesthood.”

I believe they taught the same thing. I also believe Christ when he says he existed in the time of Abraham. We know Melchizedek was Abraham's priest so Abraham believed what Melchizedek believed and Abraham's children believed what Abraham believed.

Salvation was available for the few but it was not available for the whole world until Jesus was actually born as the Christ.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Why would you do such a thing? Those are not your words or thoughts;

DISREALI Because that is how New Testament theology works. That is how Christian theology works, being based on the New Testament

VHB a special exercise that does not allow for diverse perspectives. This is a new aspect to your nature I did not expect.

DISREALI It's called Christian theology. Just as Euclidean geometry is based on the axioms of Euclid, so Christian theology is based on the New Testament. If you think this is a new aspect, then you haven't been reading my threads in this forum. I have been presenting threads in the Theology forum since 2012, and every one has been conducted on the same principle. Christian theology in the OP, and after that off-topic trolling gets ignored.
I'm not conducting controversies with other religions, and I don't expect them to conduct controversies with me.
This is an exercise in New Testament theology.

I know your protocal and find your theads generally lucid/informative. I have questions regarding Paul's motives and as he is the inventer of modern day Christianity (NT) and you have included him in this thread I do not see this as trolling at all. I have no belief system; certainty not one of religious dogma. The NT is outragious regarding some of its tenents (I know it is to be taken on faith but seriously WHAT?).

a reply to: toms54

Originally posted by toms54
I think people were saved then much the same as they are saved now.
…
…

But Christians today believe they are saved by believing that Jesus died for their sins...And they must also believe in Jesus Death and Resurrection to be saved…

So how could the people then (Prior to Christ) be saved…in the same way…as they are now…???


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft
Yet "Your faith has saved you" (Luke ch7 v50), spoken at a time when Jesus had not yet died.

a reply to: vethumanbeing
I refer you to my previous responses, especially the last one;

Just as Euclidean geometry is based on the axioms of Euclid, so Christian theology is based on the New Testament.

If you are asked to do an exercise in Euclidean geometry, you don't start arguing about whether the axioms are valid. You work within the framework.

a reply to: Joecroft

I don't have a way to answer your question. Perhaps I will think of something in the future but all I have now are examples from the Bible and Jesus's own words. If you can't believe that, I don't know what more I can say.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yeah I see that you constructed a teaching based on your interpretation of them into one cohesive doctrine. Which confuse certain people together with others while god separates them into three groups Gentiles, Jews and the churches of God.

I understand what you are TRYING to do but the road to hell is paved with false teachings and good intentions of them.

God will Treat us according to our treatment of Christ. Acceptance of Christ gives acceptance, rejection of Christ gives rejection.

What about those that never heard about Christ, they will be judged by the three books you will find in Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Best if we can be sure all people hear the words of God and his love for them in John3:16.

And not a one of those who are found in the book of life, will be found named in the Lambs book of Life for that is an entirely different book, the names therein had their sins judged already on him on his cross.

You are correct, there are extremes, legalism and total License or freedom. Anyone trying to live in between those two will have lots of troubles. Best just to live in Christ, knowing your sins are forgiven, your going to heaven, you are his glory and thereby live so accordingly. It doesn't make us perfection on earth but it does show that our salvation is perfected in Christ alone.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: vethumanbeing
I refer you to my previous responses, especially the last one;

Just as Euclidean geometry is based on the axioms of Euclid, so Christian theology is based on the New Testament.

If you are asked to do an exercise in Euclidean geometry, you don't start arguing about whether the axioms are valid. You work within the framework.

Organized Religion is not Euclidean geometry; one is subjective/based in faith and the other defines space and volume: G=God/Geometry resides in the truth dimension, unlike the New Testament.

a reply to: toms54

Originally posted by toms54
I don't have a way to answer your question. Perhaps I will think of something in the future but all I have now are examples from the Bible and Jesus's own words.
If you can't believe that, I don't know what more I can say.

But you haven’t posted any verses that clearly explain it…And you haven’t explained why you think people were saved then in the same way as they are saved now.

If you don’t have a way to answers it, that suggests you’re not in the Truth regarding it…

My beliefs have no bearing on you explaining yours…

Originally posted by toms54
As for the question at hand, "Why would God blind people from the truth?" I don't know. I could speculate. All that I do know is that I see things like this in the Bible.

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

How do you know it isn’t you who is blinded on this issue…because all I see is contradiction…

Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

I sincerely hope you can find someone better suited for you to talk to than me. I am sorry I was not capable of answering your questions.

a reply to: Joecroft
In my own opinion, the answer to the conundrum may be the one I proposed earlier; that what God wants from us is faith (i.e. trust), and that at least in the Biblical cases between Abraham and the woman who was told "Your faith has saved you", their faith is being treated as the equivalent of Christian faith.

originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: Joecroft

I sincerely hope you can find someone better suited for you to talk to than me. I am sorry I was not capable of answering your questions.

You will not find a better adversary when engaging in "Scripture Wars" than Joecroft (thanks for playing).

a reply to: toms54

Originally posted by toms54
I sincerely hope you can find someone better suited for you to talk to than me. I am sorry I was not capable of answering your questions.

But these are your ideas and beliefs, why would I ask someone else about ideas and beliefs that you hold…

Just for reference… here are your posts again below that I was enquiring about…

Originally posted by toms54
I have continued to reflect upon your ideas and now I absolutely believe some people attained salvation before the advent of Christ. Certainly the figures depicted in the transfiguration and possibly others. Since Jesus himself declared no one goes to heaven except through him, I feel compelled to conclude that Christianity has always existed and that Jesus interacted with humanity even before his birth.

Originally posted by toms54
There is much evidence for the existence of Christian concepts in more ancient times. So often I hear that Christianity incorporates pagan concepts from earlier beliefs, I usually respond that Christ did not originate these beliefs, he fulfilled them. So, yes, I do believe old testament saints were Christian even if they may have used different terminology than we do today. Further, I feel they must have had a personal relationship with Christ. They were born of the spirit and everything else.

Originally posted by toms54
I think people were saved then much the same as they are saved now.
…
…

These are your ideas and beliefs…therefore you must have reasons why you made those statements in those above posts …

Only you can explain you’re thinking…And the pre-existence of Jesus does not explain everything…you would have to take it a step further…


- JC

a reply to: DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI
In my own opinion, the answer to the conundrum may be the one I proposed earlier; that what God wants from us is faith (i.e. trust), and that at least in the Biblical cases between Abraham and the woman who was told "Your faith has saved you", their faith is being treated as the equivalent of Christian faith.

But the Christian word “faith” today has specific aspects which go along with it…

When Christians say they have faith in Jesus/God today…they attached a whole host of meanings, theology and doctrines to what that faith entails…All Christians today have faith in Jesus death and Resurrection for salvation ect…

Prophets clearly had faith in God in old Testament times…but that faith did not include any Standard Christian theology which we know today.

I understand what you’re saying… but it doesn’t fully explain all of the statements that toms54 made…that I highlighted in my previous post…

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft
There's a very useful (implied) distinction in John's gospel between "believing IN" [EN] and "believing THAT" [OTI].
The first is trusting a person, the second is believing that a statement is true.
As I see it, belief IN is the true key. The function of believing THAT is that it helps people towards believing IN.
Our ability to believe IN Christ is promoted by our belief THAT he died and was raised from the dead.
The detailed "Christian faith" which you refer to is the accumulated belief THAT. Obviously this wasn't available to Abraham or the other Old Testament saints, or the people that Jesus was talking to, so their belief IN had to come in other ways.

a reply to: Joecroft

First of all, I would like you to know that I am not trying to be deceptive. It bothers me that my own limitations should cause you to have questions. I think I understand your first question. "How could Christ forgive sin before he died?"

Just because I can not confidently explain this does not change the fact that it is undoubtedly true. Since I believe Christ is God, to me, the question translates to, "Can God forgive sin?" You might be asking from a different point of view, perhaps you are not Christian.

Of course the answer is through faith. Christ explicitly says that. But elsewhere in the Bible we see Hebrews 9:22 says, “Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

How to reconcile this? I had to search Google, there were a variety of rationalizations. Most of the time it just said, "Jesus is God Incarnate." Some said Jesus could forgive sin based upon his future actions. One idea was that forgiveness of sin was separate from Jesus's work on the cross which was to abolish death. It then went on to list all the times God had forgiven sin in the old testament and all the times Jesus healed people by virtue of their faith.

I realize this may not be the best answer. It makes sense to me because I am Christian already. If you can't believe Christ has the power to forgive sin, all I can say is there are whole books written on this subject by people that are smarter than I am. Just because I can't explain everything to you doesn't necessarily mean it is not true. Perhaps you can research it on your own if you are truly interested in the topic.

originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: Joecroft

How to reconcile this? I had to search Google, there were a variety of rationalizations. Most of the time it just said, "Jesus is God Incarnate." Some said Jesus could forgive sin based upon his future actions. One idea was that forgiveness of sin was separate from Jesus's work on the cross which was to abolish death. It then went on to list all the times God had forgiven sin in the old testament and all the times Jesus healed people by virtue of their faith.

Incarnation is nothing special toms54. You are 'incarnate' as your individualized soul incarnated in a physical body on this earth (AGAIN). You are also God incarnate because you are of God/same material. Master Jesus was better armed with majickal tools; he could conjour and speak directly to his handlers. Those that 'channel' higher beings know what this is. He had a specific mission: for humanity to know that life exists beyond 'physical' death, this is not reality but another more perfect ex'ists beyond this physical realm and there is HOPE. Forgiveness of sin involves getting rid of the 'stickiness' of Karma accumulation, by dieing so theatrically he at that time attempted to rid the world of Karmic bondage. Hope this helps.

a reply to: toms54

Originally posted by toms54
How to reconcile this? I had to search Google, there were a variety of rationalizations. Most of the time it just said, "Jesus is God Incarnate." Some said Jesus could forgive sin based upon his future actions. One idea was that forgiveness of sin was separate from Jesus's work on the cross which was to abolish death. It then went on to list all the times God had forgiven sin in the old testament and all the times Jesus healed people by virtue of their faith.

But your essentially stating someone else said this and another persons idea was this… etc…

You shouldn’t be having to do a google search to answer a question about a post you made 5 days ago!!!…i.e. Your reasoning (at the time) for your own post should be fresh in your mind/memory…

I wanted to hear your own thoughts, ideas and beliefs about your own post…and in your own words…Rather than reading from some copied and pasted Google search.

Originally posted by toms54
First of all, I would like you to know that I am not trying to be deceptive. It bothers me that my own limitations should cause you to have questions. I think I understand your first question. "How could Christ forgive sin before he died?"

Just because I can not confidently explain this does not change the fact that it is undoubtedly true. Since I believe Christ is God, to me, the question translates to, "Can God forgive sin?" You might be asking from a different point of view, perhaps you are not Christian.

Anyway…I’m not asking you if God can forgive sin…I personally believe he can and does…but that was NOT the question I asked you...

Let start over…

Go back to my first post on this thread and answer my 2 questions in your own words…forget about what I might or might not believe in...those things should have no bearing on your own answers…

Essentially… all I’m asking you to do… is explain your reasoning behind the parts of your posts that I highlighted in my last reply to you…

Good luck…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Let's not start over. I have explained myself and will not keep trying to answer your question another 4 times.

a reply to: toms54

Originally posted by toms54
Let's not start over. I have explained myself and will not keep trying to answer your question another 4 times.

But your first reply was about how Jesus always pre-existed…but that didn’t answer the question…

And in your other reply… you answered the question “Can God forgive Sin”…which is Not what I asked you…

I simply asked you (along with my 2 questions) to explain these highlighted parts of your posts below…

Here they are one more time…

Originally posted by toms54
I have continued to reflect upon your ideas and now I absolutely believe some people attained salvation before the advent of Christ. Certainly the figures depicted in the transfiguration and possibly others. Since Jesus himself declared no one goes to heaven except through him, I feel compelled to conclude that Christianity has always existed and that Jesus interacted with humanity even before his birth.

Originally posted by toms54
There is much evidence for the existence of Christian concepts in more ancient times. So often I hear that Christianity incorporates pagan concepts from earlier beliefs, I usually respond that Christ did not originate these beliefs, he fulfilled them. So, yes, I do believe old testament saints were Christian even if they may have used different terminology than we do today. Further, I feel they must have had a personal relationship with Christ. They were born of the spirit and everything else.

Originally posted by toms54
I think people were saved then much the same as they are saved now.
…
…

You shouldn't be having to do google searches to explain ideas in a post…that you made 5 days ago!!! Imho…

Remember these are your ideas in a post YOU made…you should be able to explain your reasoning behind them at the time…

It doesn’t matter to me if your explanation doesn’t sound right, or whether you get something wrong or make a mistake or whatever…but at least try to answer it in your own words…

- JC