NTS They do by nature what the law requires

a reply to: toms54
I don't think we can make that work for the other Old Teatament saints, which is why I fall back on Hebrews ch11 and take "trust" as the key to the whole thing.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: KansasGirl

John 6:44 KJV - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Spoken like a true Calvinist but
God has placed on every human persons heart a desire to know Him
Even the bible states clearly that there is a burden for Him on our hearts

You might need more than one single, simple, vague verse to convert people to Calvinism

I am not trying to promote Calvinism but I do believe some are called by God and others are actually blinded to the truth by God.

originally posted by: toms54

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: KansasGirl

John 6:44 KJV - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Spoken like a true Calvinist but
God has placed on every human persons heart a desire to know Him
Even the bible states clearly that there is a burden for Him on our hearts

You might need more than one single, simple, vague verse to convert people to Calvinism

I am not trying to promote Calvinism but I do believe some are called by God and others are actually blinded to the truth by God.

So you think God chooses some for condemnation; all though He cries out for all people to repent?
Jesus died for everyone not just an elect, do you have another opinion?

Why would God blind people with truth, Please explain how that could be love?

Do you believe in Calvinism, not that I am better or my beliefs are any more valid, just asking

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: toms54
I don't think we can make that work for the other Old Teatament saints, which is why I fall back on Hebrews ch11 and take "trust" as the key to the whole thing.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm just getting started but I have put some thought into the relationship between God and Abraham before this.

I think it's safe to say that whatever Abraham believed, his children also believed.

It seems like up until Noah, humanity had direct access to God. Maybe in a way most of us do not have now. He dwelt with them. It can be argued that Enoch went to heaven without a formal knowledge of the Christ doctrine. Maybe he just died.

After the flood, God seems more remote. Truth must have still existed upon the Earth somewhere. Balaam was a prophet and he wasn't even Israeli. Elijah is generally believed to have gone to heaven.

The Jews of today have a more difficult circumstance. Their beliefs have evolved farther from truth because most of them understand the concepts of Christianity but actively reject them. Jesus says outright that if you reject him, he will reject you.

a reply to: Raggedyman

No. I am not Calvinist. From what I have read about it, it is not compatible with my faith.

Although I don't think there is any set number of elites, there are numerous parables that indicate to my understanding that everyone will not be saved. Some will make it, others won't.

I will be honest with you. I try my best but still there are many things I do not understand. My entire life has been one where I have learned new things continuously and I am still not close to explaining much. In fact, I am still learning what I do not know.

As for the question at hand, "Why would God blind people from the truth?" I don't know. I could speculate. All that I do know is that I see things like this in the Bible.

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Maybe the devil blinded them, not God.

"7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Maybe you can explain this.

a reply to: toms54

No way toms, sorry, but won’t leave you hanging

Series of sermons explaining in detail many things, Especially the pre destination issue
What we read in English was not written in English, many things that are not exact


beyondcalvinism.blogspot.com...

I highly recommend you listen, it’s great information

a reply to: Raggedyman

I'll look at it. In the examples I gave, I don't see it as predestination but more like these people brought that condition upon themselves. Kind of like what we see going on today.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I have continued to reflect upon your ideas and now I absolutely believe some people attained salvation before the advent of Christ. Certainly the figures depicted in the transfiguration and possibly others. Since Jesus himself declared no one goes to heaven except through him, I feel compelled to conclude that Christianity has always existed and that Jesus interacted with humanity even before his birth.

There is much evidence for the existence of Christian concepts in more ancient times. So often I hear that Christianity incorporates pagan concepts from earlier beliefs, I usually respond that Christ did not originate these beliefs, he fulfilled them. So, yes, I do believe old testament saints were Christian even if they may have used different terminology than we do today. Further, I feel they must have had a personal relationship with Christ. They were born of the spirit and everything else.

And if this could happen for them, it can happen today even for people who have never been formally introduced to Christianity. The main difference being that it would be more readily revealed in a society that already has the faith.

a reply to: toms54
Thank you, that sounds like a good way of putting it.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Not radical or heretical

Pre-existence of Christ (Wikipedia)

St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD) wrote: "This, in our day, is the Christian religion, not as having been unknown in former times, but as having recently received that name."

Eusebius of Caesarea (circa 283-371 AD) said: "The religion of Jesus Christ is neither new nor strange."

. . . there may be grounds for hope that a God of this kind will interpret the conditions of salvation more broadly.

Are you serious? And you base all that follows on a fallen man, and not on the context of God's Inspired words in English?

I would have your readers know they can know and be sure of their salvation right NOW, not in the "womb of death". No they can have life abundantly today this very hour, it is available and no man need doubt the full and complete work of Christ on the cross as a reality long before they come tot he "womb of death". No one can say "yes" to God's Salvation without knowing it. That is a flase comfort to someone still questioning their salvation not the words of men who are sure of it.

If anyone does not know the assurance of their salvation they are not saved at all.

Stop reading and then writing what you think you understand of men. Read and Study the Bible for which you are told to and share that, not opinions or speculations of men with fancy words that lead to more confusion than assurance.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
In fact I'm basing the argument following that statement on three Bible passages studied in three paragraphs. The only thing I'm taking from Rahner in the opeming post is the label. The parable of the sheep and the goats IS part of the New Testament. The identification of a long list of Old Testament figures as "men of faith" IS part of the New Testament. We ought to take them into account in Biblical study.

We need to be wary of the danger of getting legalistic, which is one of the perennial vices of the human mind. Paul warned us against it. Luther expelled the kind of legalism which had grown up in the Middle Ages, only to have Protestantism developing new forms of legalism, especially around the use of scripture. Every time you criticise a fellow-Christian for not following your preferred rules, you are exposing your own legalistic streak.

The question at issue here is whether God is likely to treat us in a legalistic way, relentlessly following well-defined rules. Because the old question "What about those who have not heard of Christ?" does need to be tackled, and you're not offering any answers.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Jesus is no Lord or Judge of anything and would be the first to proclaim this.

DISRAELI The New Testament calls him Lord, and this is an exercise in understanding what the New Testament says.
Jesus said that the Son of man would come in judgement, and identified himself as the Son of man.
Paul, in Acts, calls him the one appointed by God to judge the world.

Paul is just WRONG (a plague on Christ's ministry) as singlehandedly invented Christianity which was not Jesus's intention; to introduce yet another Religous Dogma into a Pagan Anthropological soup.

Vethumanbeing We are God; just as Jesus is our Brother in this sanctity would not agree we are in any NEW relationship. We are in a very old one fraught with discosure problems...(should we tell them or not).

DISRAELI That is not what the New Testament says, and this is an exercise in understanding what the New Testament says.

Not of fan of the New Testament as written and edited by man. There are many more viable texts that tell the truth that were disincluded.

Vethumanbeing No; it does not realistically as salvation by Jesus or any of the other 9th dimentional teacher beings is TOTALLY unnessary. All things happening/to happen/or have happened are willed and perfectly constructed to achieve a perfect outcome to advance a system or an indivindual souls growth is SET (will happen or already has, while you were blinking).

DISRAELI That is not what the New Teatament says, and this is an exercise in understanding what the New Testament says. The fact that you feel more comfortable with a non-Biblical outlook is not relevant.

I did not realize you are teaching a Sunday School Class that I inadvertantly stepped into; my apologies.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Paul is just WRONG

Your opinion of Paul is not relevant. This is an exercise in New Testament theology, which involves taking the whole of the New Testament as an authority.

Not of fan of the New Testament as written and edited by man.

Your opinion of the New Testament is not relevant. This is an exercise in New Testament theology, which involves taking the whole of the New Testament as an authority.

I did not realize you are teaching a Sunday School Class that I inadvertantly stepped into; my apologies.

This is an exercise in New Testament theology, which is open to discussion (and is being discussed by other users) WITHIN the framework of New Testament theology.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Paul is just WRONG

DISREALI Your opinion of Paul is not relevant. This is an exercise in New Testament theology, which involves taking the whole of the New Testament as an authority.

Why would you do such a thing? Those are not your words or thoughts; you are behaving as if this is your belief system becoming a Minion or reinforcer of others doctrines.

vethumanbeing ]Not of fan of the New Testament as written and edited by man.

DISREALI Your opinion of the New Testament is not relvant. This is an exercise in New Testament theology, which involves taking the whole of the New Testament as an authority.

vethumanbeing I did not realize you are teaching a Sunday School Class that I inadvertantly stepped into; my apologies.

DISREALI This is an exercise in New Testament theology, which is open to discussion (and is being discussed by other users) WITHIN the framework of New Testament theology.

Yes I see; a special exercise that does not allow for diverse perspectives. This is a new aspect to your nature I did not expect.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Why would you do such a thing? Those are not your words or thoughts;

Because that is how New Testament theology works. That is how Christian theology works, being based on the New Testament;

a special exercise that does not allow for diverse perspectives. This is a new aspect to your nature I did not expect.

It's called Christian theology. Just as Euclidean geometry is based on the axioms of Euclid, so Christian theology is based on the New Testament.
If you think this is a new aspect, then you haven't been reading my threads in this forum. I have been presenting threads in the Theology forum since 2012, and every one has been conducted on the same principle. Christian theology in the OP, and after that off-topic trolling gets ignored.
I'm not conducting controversies with other religions, and I don't expect them to conduct controversies with me.
This is an exercise in New Testament theology.

a reply to: toms54

Originally posted by toms54
I have continued to reflect upon your ideas and now I absolutely believe some people attained salvation before the advent of Christ. Certainly the figures depicted in the transfiguration and possibly others. Since Jesus himself declared no one goes to heaven except through him, I feel compelled to conclude that Christianity has always existed and that Jesus interacted with humanity even before his birth.

But “Christianity” came after Jesus…?…so how could it always exist…

Perhaps you are using the words “Christian” and “Salvation” in a lighter sense of the word…

Originally posted by toms54
There is much evidence for the existence of Christian concepts in more ancient times. So often I hear that Christianity incorporates pagan concepts from earlier beliefs, I usually respond that Christ did not originate these beliefs, he fulfilled them. So, yes, I do believe old testament saints were Christian even if they may have used different terminology than we do today. Further, I feel they must have had a personal relationship with Christ. They were born of the spirit and everything else.

But in Pauls epistles, he states that one has to believe that Jesus paid for our sins…and that we must also believe in his death and resurrection to be saved.

Those are all crucial aspects of what defines being a Christian and of how one is saved according to standard Christian Doctrine. Clearly none of that theology existed in the time of the Old Testament Prophets…

So how can you say they (The Old Testament Saints) were Christian and were saved…???

- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

I think there is evidence of Christ before his birth. Pre-existence is an established Christian doctrine. You can look at the Wikipedia article for a short explanation. The concept of Logos is well known.

The crucifixion is central to Christianity. However, Jesus did forgive sins before he was crucified.

Matthew 9:1-8 King James Version (KJV)

9 And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city.

2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

7 And he arose, and departed to his house.

8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

a reply to: Joecroft

Here is more:

pre-existence -

John 8:58 King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
------

forgiveness of sin -

Luke 7:40-50 King James Version (KJV)

40And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. 41There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. 42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? 43Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. 44And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. 45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. 46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. 47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. 49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
------

Jesus is the crucifixion and resurrection.

a reply to: toms54

Originally posted by toms54
I think there is evidence of Christ before his birth. Pre-existence is an established Christian doctrine. You can look at the Wikipedia article for a short explanation. The concept of Logos is well known.

The crucifixion is central to Christianity. However, Jesus did forgive sins before he was crucified.

Well, Christians of course believe Jesus Pre-existed…but that doesn’t mean Christianity pre-existed because no Christian theology existed until after Christ came…

Jesus came to “save”…but if people could already be saved prior then_____(fill in the blank)…

In order to answer my initial 2 questions….it might be better if you outline your understanding on how one is “saved” according to Christianity and how you think the old testament prophets were “saved”.

My point is that those Christians doctrines which explain how one is saved… did not exist prior to Jesus arrival…therefore there was no Christianity (or Christians) before Christ because the theology didn’t exist yet…And if prophets were “saved” prior to Jesus arrival, then they were clearly “saved” in another fashion to that of standard Christian thinking…

Btw - I hope all this is making sense…


- JC