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NTS They do by nature what the law requires

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posted on Feb, 14 2019 @ 08:54 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft

I have addressed all those points in this thread. You might wish to reread my posts to Disraeli about the order of Melchizedek. I believe this was the version of Christianity in Abraham's day. Really, I have said what I have said. There is nothing to be gained by repeating it over and over.




posted on Feb, 14 2019 @ 09:10 PM
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a reply to: toms54



Originally posted by toms54
I have addressed all those points in this thread.
You might wish to reread my posts to Disraeli about the order of Melchizedek.


You mentioned about the order of Melchizedek and how Christ pre-existed in one of your replies to me…but like I said before…that does not completely cover the 2 questions that I asked you…



Originally posted by toms54
I believe this was the version of Christianity in Abraham's day.


But the Christianity we have today…did not exist in Abrahams day….so how can you say they were Christian…?… That’s just one of the questions that I’ve already asked you…which you’ve yet to fully explain...


- JC



posted on Feb, 14 2019 @ 09:43 PM
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a reply to: toms54



Originally posted by toms54
I think people were saved then much the same as they are saved now.




My other question was this…How could they be saved back then… in the SAME way they are Now…?

Like I said in one of my previous posts…Christians today believe they are saved by believing Jesus paid for their sins… and they must also believe in his death and resurrection for Salvation…

Clearly no-one in Old Testament times knew anything about those aspects of belief…

So how can you possibly state they “were saved then much the same as they are saved now”…???

That’s another question which you’ve yet to fully explain…



Originally posted by toms54
I believe they taught the same thing. I also believe Christ when he says he existed in the time of Abraham. We know Melchizedek was Abraham's priest so Abraham believed what Melchizedek believed and Abraham's children believed what Abraham believed.


And I’ll throw in another question too…

How could they be taught the same thing, when the Christianity we know today didn’t exist back then…?…

I seriously don’t think you’ve thought any of this through…

- JC

edit on 14-2-2019 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 04:29 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft

I have answered all of those questions in the course of this thread. Seriously, every one.

I could ask you to reread the thread but you seem to have closed your mind somehow to what has been written here. Either that or you simply don't read my replies at all. I am not going to accuse you of bad faith so I prefer to believe the first sentence.

Why repeat myself over and over? If you were unable to understand the first times, how can I think you will understand it if I say it another 5 times?



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 08:40 AM
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a reply to: toms54



Originally posted by toms54
I have answered all of those questions in the course of this thread. Seriously, every one.

I could ask you to reread the thread but you seem to have closed your mind somehow to what has been written here. Either that or you simply don't read my replies at all. I am not going to accuse you of bad faith so I prefer to believe the first sentence.

Why repeat myself over and over? If you were unable to understand the first times, how can I think you will understand it if I say it another 5 times?


“Unable to Understand” lol

But you haven’t explained your posts…or fully answered my 2 questions, whereby it actually makes sense…because you don’t understand it…

You’ve sounded defensive from the outset…and have constantly brought up what I believe or might not believe …to try and avoid answering the questions…

You even said this below… half way through our discussion …



Originally posted by toms54
I don't have a way to answer your question.




Your statement above makes it totally clear…that you couldn’t possibly have answered my questions…

And yet you are now claiming to have answered them…laughable lol

I then tried to push your further for an explanation, which you have failed to demonstrate…Even answering a question about whether God can forgive sin, which is not the question(s) I asked you…

Everybody and anybody who's followed our discussion from the beginning can clearly see that you didn’t fully address my questions…

- JC



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 08:57 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft

You repeatedly ask the same questions over and over about points that I have stated clearly. When I do answer, you act as if you are unable to comprehend.

Example
"Even answering a question about whether God can forgive sin, which is not the question(s) I asked you… " I did not discuss if God can forgive sin but whether Christ can forgive sin. You ask how can Christ save people if he is not yet crucified. I reply through faith because he is God. Then you appear to block Christ out of your mind, say God forgives sin and repeat the same question over again three times now at least.

"He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart"



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 09:07 AM
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a reply to: toms54



Originally posted by toms54
I don't have a way to answer your question.




Nobody would make the above statement…if they had fully answered my (2) questions….which btw - you clearly haven’t done…

You freely admitted yourself in the above statement, that you DID NOT have a way to answer my question…

And yet now…you are claiming to have answered them…lol

- JC



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 09:20 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Yes, I didn't have a ready answer. Forgive me for attempting to have an honest discussion.

However, that question has since been answered.

"You ask how can Christ save people if he is not yet crucified. I reply through faith because he is God."

Then I went on to say, "Salvation was available for the few but it was not available for the whole world until Jesus was actually born as the Christ."



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 09:33 AM
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a reply to: toms54



Originally posted by toms54
However, that question has since been answered.

"You ask how can Christ save people if he is not yet crucified. I reply through faith because he is God."

Then I went on to say, "Salvation was available for the few but it was not available for the whole world until Jesus was actually born as the Christ."


I never asked you THAT question though…

Highlight my post where I asked you that exact question….

Additionally …your answer doesn’t cover my other question… or even my first question completely imo…

- JC



edit on 15-2-2019 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 09:49 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Your question




But Christians today believe they are saved by believing that Jesus died for their sins...And they must also believe in Jesus Death and Resurrection to be saved…

So how could the people then (Prior to Christ) be saved…in the same way…as they are now…???


My response



I don't have a way to answer your question. Perhaps I will think of something in the future but all I have now are examples from the Bible and Jesus's own words. If you can't believe that, I don't know what more I can say.



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 09:54 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft

I am through with this nonsense. Say whatever you want. This conversation is over.



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 10:14 AM
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a reply to: toms54



Originally posted by toms54
I have continued to reflect upon your ideas and now I absolutely believe some people attained salvation before the advent of Christ. Certainly the figures depicted in the transfiguration and possibly others. Since Jesus himself declared no one goes to heaven except through him, I feel compelled to conclude that Christianity has always existed and that Jesus interacted with humanity even before his birth.


There is no possible way that Christianity has always existed…Your thinking is completely false…



Originally posted by toms54
There is much evidence for the existence of Christian concepts in more ancient times. So often I hear that Christianity incorporates pagan concepts from earlier beliefs, I usually respond that Christ did not originate these beliefs, he fulfilled them. So, yes, I do believe old testament saints were Christian even if they may have used different terminology than we do today. Further, I feel they must have had a personal relationship with Christ. They were born of the spirit and everything else.


The Old Testament Saints could never be Christian…they were following Judaism…so again… completely false…



Originally posted by toms54
I think people were saved then much the same as they are saved now.




Nooo possible way they were saved then in the same way now…As Christianity teaches a completely different way to reach salvation…so again…completely false…



Originally posted by toms54
I believe they taught the same thing. I also believe Christ when he says he existed in the time of Abraham. We know Melchizedek was Abraham's priest so Abraham believed what Melchizedek believed and Abraham's children believed what Abraham believed.


There’s no possible way they were taught the same things either…so again… False…

Every part of your highlighted posts above… is completely FALSE…and makes absolutely no sense what so ever…and you have yet to demonstrate otherwise…

You are just blindly accepting something as true, without knowing why it is true…

You’ve had ample opportunity to explain it in your own words…whereby it actually makes sense…And you even freely admitted you couldn’t answer the question…and then tried to make out that you’ve already answered everything…Totally ridiculous…



Originally posted by toms54
I am through with this nonsense. Say whatever you want. This conversation is over.


There’s a reason you couldn’t answer my questions, and that’s because you are talking complete nonsense…

Yeah that’s right… This Conversation is Over!!!


- JC



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 10:43 AM
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a reply to: Joecroft

Really, Abraham and Melchizedek practiced Judaism? But how could that be? Judah was not even born yet.


edit on 15-2-2019 by toms54 because: add picture



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 10:57 AM
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a reply to: toms54



Originally posted by toms54
Really, Abraham and Melchizedek practiced Judaism? But how could that be? Judah was not even born yet.


I said the Old Testament Saints…I didn’t state which ones specifically…

Although it is kinda funny how you are using logic there…but not when it comes to your own statements…funny

Anyway…You’ve’ failed to answer any of my questions and now you want to ask me questions lol

I’m not going to give you another chance to give me the run around one more time…

You had your chance…The conversation is over…

- JC



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 11:34 AM
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originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: toms54



Originally posted by toms54
Really, Abraham and Melchizedek practiced Judaism? But how could that be? Judah was not even born yet.


I said the Old Testament Saints…I didn’t state which ones specifically…


Well who then? Moses? Moses wasn't Jewish. He was a Levite. Even though his teachings eventually became the basis for Judaism, Moses didn't practice the Judaism we know today. He formed the Israelite religion which did not become Jewish in character until after the time of King David. Elijah was not Jewish. He was from northern Israel as were several prophets in the Bible. The modern Jewish religion formed even later. The main text used for Catholic and Orthodox are 1000 years older than the Masoretic text used by the Jews.

So how can you say the OT saints practiced Judaism when Judaism did not yet exist?



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 11:56 AM
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a reply to: toms54



Originally posted by toms54
So how can you say the OT saints practiced Judaism when Judaism did not yet exist?


I’ve already answered your question…sound familiar lol



Originally posted by toms54
I am through with this nonsense. Say whatever you want. This conversation is over.


Why would you say This conversation is over. And then continue the conversation.

Let me make it totally clear for you

You haven’t answered any of my questions coherently and are in my opinion talking complete nonsense…so for that reason…

This Conversation is Over

I’m out…

Have a great day

- JC



posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 12:01 PM
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a reply to: Joecroft




posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 12:05 PM
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a reply to: toms54




posted on Feb, 15 2019 @ 10:22 PM
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originally posted by: toms54

Well who then? Moses? Moses wasn't Jewish. He was a Levite.

Nieghborhood hubbub (gossip) regarding the identity of Moses; possibly the Son of Pharaoh Thutmose I; making him Thutmose II.

edit on 15-2-2019 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2019 @ 05:51 AM
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a reply to: vethumanbeing

There are all kinds of theories about ancient Hebrews being Egyptian Pharaohs. I've read about the patriarchs being Pharaohs and about David and Solomon being Pharaohs.

The Bible says Moses was raised by a Pharaoh but never ruled Egypt; instead he went off with the Israelites to find the promised land.

Our secular history does not match Biblical history. see: Ancient Egypt knew no Pharaohs nor Israelites

I think that they will eventually figure all this out because people are highly motivated to reconcile this. All that can be said for sure is that at least one of our sources has some errors or is misleading in some way.







 
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