How do you think religion started?

Now, skippy had a good opening line in his response above. Fear, and the inability to explain everything, coupled with environment. Those are the driving forces behind religions.

You christians never cease to amaze me by the way. You try to paint this issue as if God has predisposed all of us to believing in him. Not true at all. If that was truly the case, most everyone would end up being christian if they believed in a god at all. If things like environment were not a factor, religions would not be regionalized. It is foolish to say that we are all seeking something that is the same. We are all seeking answers to mathematical questions yes. That is the same yes. But those who seek religions, do so only because of their environment. You are christian because, your parents, friends, relatives, and countrymen are. Don't fool yourself into believeing you are special or something. You are just foolish, and a follower.

Originally posted by infinite
According to my personal belief,
religion was started by God.

If you believe in a Single Creating Force, isn't it obvious that It causes EVERYTHING to "start"? However, as theologians say, God is the First Cause but He works through second causes. For example, if it is in your allotted destiny to die a violent death, He will put you in harm's way so that some second cause, like a lightning bolt, a drunken driver, a flood or a murderer will finish you off.

In the case of religions, if they exist, then obviously it is because they were meant to exist, and are part of a higher plan, like everything else, but it behooves us to ask ourselves what the second causes could have been, because those second causes might have had sinister motives. For example, some religion could have been established by an insensitive, covetous, power-hungry ruling class, or an evil race of aliens. Whatever the case, it will be part of a lesson that their victims must learn, and their tormentors are an instrument of God, but that doesn't mean that the victims don't have a right to exercise their free will, make the necessary inquiries, discover the foul play and then try to overthrow the wicked rulers, which will also be a part of the higher plan.

Originally posted by Macrento

Are you sure it was Orwell who said that?

Yes positive.

We're being unfairly rude to Jake and DBrandt and they deserve to be treated more kindly because I think they are baby souls or young souls. See what Michael says about these charming, childlike sorts of souls: "The baby soul tends to be fundamentalistic in its religious beliefs. Personification of the Godhead is strongest in this cycle." And then: "The young soul, if religiously inclined, tends toward orthodoxy in the extreme. It will campaign tirelessly against all religious reform." (Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, Messages From Michael, Playboy Paperbacks, N.Y., 1980, pp. 70 & 72)

No I dont believe we're being unfairly rude to Jake and DBrandt. This is a place for intelligent discussions and not everyone will be likeminded individuals they may be looking for. If they are this is the wrong place to be. But their input is definately welcome. Atleast it reminds us of the differences in human thinking.
Now the reason you gave for being nice was that they were young souls? So in other words the "orthodoxy" and the "irrationality" regarding religion is something the younger souls need to grow out of? Thats an interesting concept....

(posted by Isis)
So in other words the "orthodoxy" and the "irrationality" regarding religion is something the younger souls need to grow out of?

Yes, exactly, because, see now what Michael says about the attitude of mature and old souls towards religion:

"In the mature cycle there is acute perception of the veil that lies between the real and artificial space, and as never before, the longing to penetrate this veil and go beyond the senses to glimpse the pandimensional." (p. 74)

And...

"The religion of the old souls is expansive and includes unorthodox rituals. Groves of trees become cathedrals (...). The synthesis is perceived in the final cycle, and old souls seldom cling to dogma." (p. 77)

Also, note how inexperienced souls avoid arguing. Their reasoning powers are still weak and they know that they will be easily bashed if one drags them into a discussion. What they do is repeat the simple truths they were taught when they could hardly talk and then vanish forever. Don't expect Jake and Dbrandt to show up here ever again. "Nevermore, said the raven, nevermore."

What I wanted to know was what is Isis holding in her hand. It looks like a little pile of rubies. Surely you know that gemstones and precious metals symbolize the soul because, just as they lie hidden deep underground, and it takes a lot of effort to find them and bring them to the surface, so the soul lies like a deeply hidden treasure within the flesh, and you must toil for years to drag it up so that it lies fully exposed.

*

Originally posted by Macrento

Also, note how inexperienced souls avoid arguing. Their reasoning powers are still weak and they know that they will be easily bashed if one drags them into a discussion. What they do is repeat the simple truths they were taught when they could hardly talk and then vanish forever. Don't expect Jake and Dbrandt to show up here ever again. "Nevermore, said the raven, nevermore."

That would explain a lot.
So how does one go about "maturing" from a younger soul to an older soul? You know people like Jake a Dbrandt? Maybe us "rational" souls can help out eh? You, me, Seapeople....
If only they could be a little more rational. Ahh..the pity. :shk:

*
I just found out that Jake has started a thread titled "The Antichristian Conspiracy" in the section "Conspiracies in Religions", where he says that...

Doesnt the sheer weight of the trend in this forum show you that there is clearly some larger movement , possibly lead by a conspiracy, ...whos goal is anti-christian?

The member called "Seapeople" is singled out as the worst offender. This reminds me about something I read a long time ago about a people the Egyptians called "the People of the Sea" who around the year 2000 B.C. arrived in their ships --that's how they got their name-- invaded Egypt and established a dynasty of their own, until they were finally overthrown. They were the Hyksos, I think, and their kings are mistakenly referred to as the "Shepherd Kings". They are a mysterious people. Nobody knows where they came from.

Apparently Seapeople decided to invade ATS using the name of an aggressive invading horde and is waging a total war against the Christian members, who are now counterattacking... a mighty clash of Biblical proportions. You can see the blood on the tiles all over the website. It's worse than watching television.

*

Wow that was a long thread by Jake... Seems like he's a bit paranoid about his whole "anti-christian" conspiracy thing. Maybe he needs to see a psychiatrist? I dont know...
Being a border line atheist I dont feel the need to correct him in his retarded mudslinging. He has the right to his own beliefs and thats that. Dont tread on my zone and i'll leave you alone. See, I find it childish for a person to run to the mods when someone points out the holes in their theories and gets technical. Sad truely sad! What can ya do? All I can say is
Interesting story there about Seapeople. I dont think that analogy qualifies for Seapeople(The member) I doubt his intentions are to invade ATS in any way. Its sad that the extremist christian members feel this way. Again did I mention paranoia? FREEDOM OF SPEECH! HAAA! NOW THATS A JOKE!!

WOW! Would you look at that.... Someone stood up for me in open forum!

Jake, I have been a member at this site for well over a year. It is only been recently that I have taken serious issue with religion. Furthermore, it is the complete lack of reason that you personally, as well as a few others have shown that made me point out the obvious errors in your thinking. I hardly am out to get ATS. Nor am I out to get christians. I truly do NOT fit the bill that you believe I do. If you only knew the driving forces behind my views, you would be much more receptive of your deserved criticism.

People of the sea....

Hmmmm

Macrento, you remind me of someone who talks like he is real smart while he tries to cover up his downfalls in life. Oh, the many downfalls I could think of....

The most logical reason I can think of however, is that in real life, you are looked down upon due to your inability to reason and use logical skills to function well in society. So you come here, and talk...as if you are above everyone..even those who are misguided and agree with you. You try to speak at such a "high" level, that you completely miss reality.

For instance, the reality behind the name of seapeople. That reality, is much more simple, and you prove it just like the rest of them. You are one of them. You are one of the followers. Free thinkers look down on you here as well as in your reality of life away from this forum. Can't get away from it, can you?

True, I'm one of the nuts here, sad to say. And not that hard to crack either.

Originally posted by Macrento
dbrandt--

You might want to ask yourself some time what are the underlying reasons Fundamentalists of any religion have for interpreting their "revealed" scriptures in such an ingenuous and literal way. Might it not be for fear of being punished if they have the insolence to question something they believe to have been said by a wrathful god?

Once you have accepted Christ the wrath of God is not upon a person. While we still have trials and troubles and successes we do not need to fear. We still face discipline but it's for refing us. When we stray from God we can rest knowing that He will bring us back to the right place.

Religion is a way for people to answer questions that they otherwise would not be able to answer.

Originally posted by Seapeople
You are christian because, your parents, friends, relatives, and countrymen are. Don't fool yourself into believeing you are special or something. You are just foolish, and a follower.

Thank God for that. But the thing is a child can only hang onto their parents christian faith for so long. Then as they grow older it becomes necessary for them to make decisions and choices and the rubber hits the road and they must choose whether they are going to follow Christ. Their own faith must develope and grow and increase as they age, for a relationship with God to flourish.

On a side note you probably mentioned it on another post I wouldn't be able to find, but briefly can you tell me if you are atheist, agnostic, new age or other. Thanks

Originally posted by Macrento
Yes, exactly, because, see now what Michael says about the attitude of mature and old souls towards religion:
Don't expect Jake and Dbrandt to show up here ever again. "Nevermore, said the raven, nevermore."

Who is Michael, I sense it's someone channeling, let me know if I'm wrong. And I'm not showing up here ever again as in being reincarnated to come back to the earth? Let me know this one also.

Originally posted by JustAnIllusion
Religion is a way for people to answer questions that they otherwise would not be able to answer.

True, and God has revealed Himself, for us that are on this side of the cross, in the Bible. It answers many questions that people have and desire an answer too.

Dbrandt.-

"Michael" is what you suggest &/or one of my multiple selves. It is up to you to decide. Remember, Don't give up the ship, no matter how "free" the thinkers. They, too, are followers. The only difference lies in the choice of leaders. Their god is Sir B. Russell, their little red book, Why I Am Not A Christian. It used to be my bible before going delusional. But I have my lucid moments.

Originally posted by Macrento
Dbrandt.-

Remember, Don't give up the ship, no matter how "free" the thinkers. They, too, are followers. The only difference lies in the choice of leaders. Their god is Sir B. Russell, their little red book, Why I Am Not A Christian.

I'd like to diagree. A true rationalist, or rather a skeptic is not a follower. Sure he/she subscribes to a set of theories but does not follow one book/person/leader with faith. A true skeptic draws his/her own conclusions using the books as a guiding path. If they followed a leader(who is a flawed person) what makes them so different from christians? When you follow a person without taking the time out to come to the same conclusions, you are going on faith. Thats where a rationalist is different from a "follower"

Macrento,

I am going to have to point something out here. You are misguided. I get the feeling that you think you are a free thinker yourself. But, you contradict it by saying that everyone is a follower.

Lets qualify some things here. yes, everyone is a follower to an extent. Why do you wear cloths? Because it is socially acceptable, and everyone else does. Many examples exist along those lines.

It is though, those that QUESTION EVERYTHING that are free. You are a free thinker when you seek answers of your own, and you explore all reasonable sources. The act of being free, is not just having your own opinion. It is having your own opinion after questioning things on your own. It is not taking what your pastor tells you in church as fact until you look into it. These are the things that religious organizations hate. Questions. Why? Because questions lead to answers, and the answers aren't always what you are told they are.

Isis...

...but no one can claim to be an island. You're not born in the middle of nowhere, but in a certain society with a culture of its own. So the least you can do is to point out your assumptions, like, f.ex., that you think all people who believe in unseen things are illogical and it's a waste of time to argue with them, so just scold them for their stupidity, then ignore them.

No one has ideas exclusively of their own. You make up your mind after yrs. of reading and listening, then you follow the ideas of those that sound more convincing than others. Even Newton admitted this..."If we could see more than others it was because we were standing on the shoulders of giants etc. etc."....

And among the self-righteous, it's not the ones who wave the Holy Writ at the lectern that are the most insolent and arrogant, but the atheists, who look down upon the benighted hordes and try to enlighten them. They claim to be passing on the torch of civilization.

Macrento,
When did I make a claim to be a thought island? When did I say that I have evolved without the help of society and culture? Thats the same as saying "something came out of nothing" I have plenty of assumptions. We all do.

like, f.ex., that you think all people who believe in unseen things are illogical and it's a waste of time to argue with them, so just scold them for their stupidity, then ignore them.

Actually thats not my job. The vice versa applies to the priests. I already mentioned to you that i believe in electricity. Hey thats unseen right? There are many forces that are unseen. Does that mean I dismiss them? No.
As an atheist, I dont claim to have the proof against existence of God. The inability to disprove God's existence is not a rational, or compelling reason for belief. The burden of proof lies with those who claim that God exists.

No one has ideas exclusively of their own. You make up your mind after yrs. of reading and listening, then you follow the ideas of those that sound more convincing than others. Even Newton admitted this..."If we could see more than others it was because we were standing on the shoulders of giants etc. etc."....

Ofcourse! New theories in science is a product of earlier discoveries and inventions. No one starts from scratch. Same goes for belief systems. My belief system is a product of earlier reasearch and revelations. An agnostic or an atheist is a result of evolving out of the norm. I dont know why you misunderstood my point of view.

And among the self-righteous, it's not the ones who wave the Holy Writ at the lectern that are the most insolent and arrogant, but the atheists, who look down upon the benighted hordes and try to enlighten them. They claim to be passing on the torch of civilization.

Frankly a true atheist does not get involved and doesnt care much. He tries to impart the knowledge and help out his fellow men who are lost but thats about it. No one can learn if they want to shut themselves off from knowledge. Do I look down upon them? No. I really dont care.
Again..that job is for priests.

Take it easy and we can all live in peace.