Has the United States always been something of a principality of the old world order ?

Has the United States always been something of a principality of the old world order ?

Here are some ideas that allude to this:

Look at the Great Seal of the Untied States -



Now look at the coat of arms for Austria -



Notice:

- They both have an Eagle/Phoenix in the same orientation, wings flared out identically
- They both have their legs flaring out diagonally, holding something in each talon.
- They both have a shield covering their chest with red and white stripes
- They both have their tail feathers drooping from the bottom

Do you think this is a coincidence?


I've looked further into this. It turns out Austria was part of The Holy Roman Empire.

Symbol of the Holy Roman Empire

I suppose all the coat of Arms contained in it are part of the Holy Roman Empire..

If you examine the coat of arms, all of them are contained in all of the symbolism for all of European principalities as well as Great Britain/Wales.

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Germany was also a part of the Holy Roman Empire and many figures associated with the development in America through various agents come from there; in particular Hesse-Kassel.

One example, the Rothschild family originates from there:

The Rothschild family is a wealthy Jewish family descending from Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744–1812), a court factor to the German Landgraves of Hesse-Kassel in the Free City of Frankfurt, Holy Roman Empire, who established his banking business in the 1760s.

- Link

A court factor or court Jew "was a Jewish banker who handled the finances of, or lent money to, European royalty and nobility."
Court Factor

Now this was still during the time of the Holy Roman Empire officially in existence. Now you can imagine if you are lending money to European nobility and royalty, you probably hold great influence.

Now I am not saying their family runs the show, but they are one family/lineage who have some influence and are connected to the development of the United States of America through various agents, as do many other families/lineages from various parts of the former Holy Roman Empire.

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I wanted to find the origins of the symbology of this eagle/phoenix with the shield on its chest.

The oldest artifact or image I could find was this:


If you compare the one on the right with the Great Seal and Austrian coat of arms -

- it still has a shield on its chest
- the tail is flared out in the bottom
- head and wings are in the same orientation

This fibulae or brooch/clasp was found in the Visigothic graves in Spain and is from the 6th Century. article

This fibulae was used to fasten clothing, such as cloaks. One article says the Visigoths or Goths may have gotten this design from the Romans.

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There is other ancient Roman symbology used in American symbolism.

One such ubiquitous symbology is the Fasces.

It was an insignia of official authority in ancient Rome and had origins in the Etruscan civilization and even earlier than that.

It was carried by Lictors.

(Ancient gold coin from Dacia, minted by Coson, depicting a consul and two lictors.)

Ancient Lictor

Here are some examples:


This I find the most interesting because the Fasces is hidden under George Washington's coat. What is that supposed to symbolize? Why is it hidden?


Here you can see two Fasces under each arm of Abraham Lincoln.

On the US dime..

And in the House Chamber of the US Capitol

For more on this you can read my old articles:
On the Development of World Power Structures - Part I

a reply to: nOraKat


The eagle and the fasces are both borrowed from Roman culture, there is documentation in the National Archives that covers the multiple design teams for the Great Seal discussing the use of Classical symbolism. They felt it added gravitas to a nation which had no symbolic history of its own.

a reply to: nOraKat

I think the young US was trying to establish some credibility among European nations, and took on some of the "trappings" of the old world. The founders were essentially trying to be aristocrats in their own right (Washington really wanted to be accepted by the British Military, and was snubbed in the French and Indian wars by not receiving a Royal Commission), and so mimicked established European models.

I hope we are pretty much over that now....

a reply to: nOraKat


I think the founders just wanted to "fit in" and be respected and acknowledged as part of the "The Powers That Be". I don't think they had the foresight to see future conspiracy "New World Order" theories in their proud governmental symbols.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I wonder if there is more to it than just "borrowing the symbology".

The monument of George Washington in my example hiding the fasces alludes to this idea. Why would it be hidden?

Furthermore, the Great Seal symbology is from the Holy Roman Empire, not ancient Rome, a much more recent entity.

a reply to: nOraKat

You have to love what Lincoln did during the civil war but he was assassinated because of it:

"(we) gave the people of this Republic the greatest blessing they have ever had – their own paper money to pay their own debts..."

The Treasury notes were printed with green ink on the back, so the people called them "Greenbacks".

Lincoln printed 400 million dollars worth of Greenbacks (the exact amount being $449,338,902), money that he delegated to be created, a debt-free and interest-free money to finance the War. It served as legal tender for all debts, public and private. He printed it, paid it to the soldiers, to the U.S. Civil Service employees, and bought supplies for war.

Shortly after that happened, The London Times printed the following: "If that mischievous financial policy, which had its origin in the North American Republic, should become indurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without a debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of the civilized governments of the world. The brains and the wealth of all coun­tries will go to North America. That govern­ment must be destroyed, or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe."

And "destroy" they did!

It was supposed to be patterned after the old, old world order of the ancient Greeks and free from the economic and cultural restraints of Christian Rome.

originally posted by: nOraKat
The monument of George Washington in my example hiding the fasces alludes to this idea. Why would it be hidden?

It's not hidden, you can clearly see it and it's fairly evident in other monuments and on currency.

Furthermore, the Great Seal symbology is from the Holy Roman Empire, not ancient Rome, a much more recent entity.

The use of an eagle as a heraldric symbol predates the HRE as evidenced by the Romans and Greeks using them. Additionally there are other symbols in the Great Seal that have nothing to do with the HRE.

originally posted by: nOraKat
If you examine the coat of arms, all of them are contained in all of the symbolism for all of European principalities as well as Great Britain/Wales.

With the greatest respect, the coat of arms of the UK has no poultry in it. It has a lion and an unicorn. Historically in the UK (England specifically) the coat of arms has been based around a lion. Plus England, Scotland and Northern Ireland were not principalities either individually or collectively - only Wales was considered a principality, hence the Prince of Wales.

The UK, or its constituent parts, was never part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Here look on Wikipedia for the coat of arms of the UK

originally posted by: paraphi
The UK, or its constituent parts, was never part of the Holy Roman Empire.

The other thing he needs to consider is that the HRE existed before European heraldry (Barbarossa had the first HRE symbol) and that they clearly took their freedom chicken from the Romans after which it was borrowed by the United States.

United States of America is a copy. Copy of rest of the world mash together. Nothing special.

That old saying... "nothing new under the sun" is likely apt for humanity. There has always ben a symbol to define the unity of a group or entity. A banner or symbol. Hence the first and second Commandments. But regardless the commandments, they have persisted down through time. A point of Rally.

USA is actually is the east India company in disguise. Think about it. Even has same flag.

That explains why USA acts and behaves like a business.rather then a immigrant county, such as Australia or Canada.

Seals, emblems, motifs and totems are only wannabes. Let me explain that, even though they might have some small significance, the vast majority are depicting what they want to be not what they are.
Instance, the eagle has been used for many, many totems, because it is renowned to be a strong fearless bird. Hence the taking of the eagle for a motif and that includes the United States.
People don't have motifs of say a snake because they are associated with underhanded slyness. Though some people it would be a true depiction.
If you really wish to compare the principality type scenario come away from emblems and look at the people who are behind the emblems. Now take the USA. In it's beginnings you had "normal" people being elected to the government, Davy Crockett etc. but has years have passed the US has reverted to the very thing they rebelled against in the first place.
British rule at that time was controlled solely by the aristocracy. The ordinary man had no say in any life or governance, hence the American cry "no taxation without representation". So the revolution.
Now what the US has at the moment is exactly the opposite of what the founding fathers wanted. In affect (though you go through a supposed democratic process which you know is wrong) you have a government run by American "aristocracy". Only money men get elected (though they are not called "sir" or "lord") they may as well be.
NOW you come into a world order with the people involved not the emblems they portray.

a reply to: nOraKat

The eagle and the fasces seems to be a uniquely European symbol. It is all over Europe.

I was looking at the Roman eagle. Sometimes it clutches a fasces, other times something else.



I don't know what that is but it's popular.

Then there is the double headed eagle. None of the images on Google showed it with the fasces. Maybe it's mostly just a western European symbol.

a reply to: nOraKat

And then there is this.

originally posted by: toms54
I was looking at the Roman eagle. Sometimes it clutches a fasces, other times something else.

I don't know what that is but it's popular.

Those are cornu or 'horns'.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

AM: "It's not hidden, you can clearly see it and it's fairly evident in other monuments and on currency."

It sure is, its hidden under his cloak, not in the open.


AM: "The use of an eagle as a heraldric symbol predates the HRE as evidenced by the Romans and Greeks using them. Additionally there are other symbols in the Great Seal that have nothing to do with the HRE."

We're not talking about just any eagle, its this particular eagle in the same orientation, with the details I pointed out - talons holding something on each leg, etc.

a reply to: paraphi

P:"With the greatest respect, the coat of arms of the UK has no poultry in it. It has a lion and an unicorn."

Correct so observe:

"Double-headed eagle with coats of arms of individual states, the symbol of the Holy Roman Empire (painting from 1510)" - article


Can you spot the same identical lions in the coat of arms of the Holy Roman Empire's states?

The House of Habsburg, or House of Austria, was one of the most influential royal houses of Europe. The throne of the Holy Roman Empire was continuously occupied by the Habsburgs between 1438 and 1740. The house also produced emperors and kings of the Kingdom of Bohemia, Kingdom of England (Jure uxoris King), Kingdom of France (Queen consort), Kingdom of Germany, Kingdom of Hungary, Empire of Russia, Kingdom of Croatia, Second Mexican Empire, Kingdom of Ireland (Jure uxoris King), Kingdom of Portugal, and Habsburg Spain, as well as rulers of several Dutch and Italian principalities.

- House of Habsburg

That lion (that particular lion) also happens to be the coat of arms of the House of Habsburg.

(Coat of arms of the Counts of Habsburg)


("Owain Glyndŵr, the last native Prince of Wales (crowned 1400), bore the arms of Powys and Deheubarth quartered" - Link)

Not only are they lions, but that very specific particular lion.

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Furthermore:

The House of Hanover is a German royal dynasty which has ruled the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg, the Kingdom of Hanover, *the Kingdom of Great Britain*, the Kingdom of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

- House of Hanover

So what is the connection?

The Holy Roman Empire / Austria -> Great Britain / East India company -> United States of America


Also House of Windsor (King George VI) came from House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha going back to Leopold I of Belgium (Holy Roman Empire).

a reply to: Pandaram

originally posted by: Pandaram
USA is actually is the east India company in disguise. Think about it. Even has same flag.

Thats right. The American flag is the East India company flag.

That was pointed out to me by Buckminster Fuller's book - Critical Path:

P 78. is important to note that, while the British Empire as a world government lost the American Revolution, the power structure behind it did not lose the war. The most visible of the power-structure identities was the East India Company, an entirely private enterprise whose flag as adopted by Queen Elizabeth in 1600 happened to have thirteen red and white horizontal stripes with a blue rectangle in its upper lefthand corner. The blue rectangle bore in red and white the superimposed crosses of St. Andrew and St. George. When the Boston Tea Party occurred, the colonists dressed as Indians boarded the East India Company's three ships and threw overboard their entire cargoes of high-tax tea. They also took the flag from the masthead of the largest of the "East Indiamen"—the Dartmouth. George Washington took command of the U.S. Continental Army under an elm tree in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The flag used for that occasion was the East India Company's flag, which by pure coincidence had the thirteen red and white stripes. Though it was only coincidence, most of those present thought the thirteen red and white stripes did represent the thirteen American colonies—ergo, was very appropriate—but they complained about the included British flag's superimposed crosses in the blue rectangle in the top corner. George Washington conferred with Betsy Ross, after which came the thirteen white, five-pointed stars in the blue field with the thirteen red and white horizontal stripes. While the British government lost the 1776 war, the East India Company's owners who constituted the invisible power structure behind the British government not only did not lose but moved right into the new U.S.A. economy along with the latter's most powerful landowners.

By pure chance I happened to uncover this popularly unknown episode of American history. Commissioned in 1970 by the Indian government to design new airports in Bombay, New Delhi, and Madras, I was visiting the grand palace of the British fortress in Madras, where the English first established themselves in India in 1600. There I saw a picture of Queen Elizabeth I and the flag of the East India Company of 1600 a.d., with its thirteen red and white horizontal stripes and its superimposed crosses in the upper corner. What astonished me was that this flag (which seemed to be the American flag) was apparently being used in 1600 a.d., 175 years before the American Revolution. Displayed on the stairway landing wall together with the portrait of Queen Elizabeth I painted on canvas, the flag was painted on the wall itself, as was the seal of the East India Company. The supreme leaders of the American Revolution were of the southern type—George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. Both were great landowners with direct royal grants for their lands, in contradistinction to the relatively meager individual landholdings of the individual northern Puritan colonists.

Furthermore, where do you think the Red and White stripes come from?

That's right - The Holy Roman Empire

Herzog Leopold I of Austria, 976 AD

Leopold V, Duke of Austria, 1177 AD


So what is the connection?

The Holy Roman Empire / Austria -> Great Britain / East India company -> United States of America

The House of Hanover is a German royal dynasty which has ruled the Duchy of Brunswick-Lüneburg, the Kingdom of Hanover, *the Kingdom of Great Britain*, the Kingdom of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

- House of Hanover

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The American Flag is the flag of The East India Company