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Has the United States always been something of a principality of the old world order ?

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posted on Jan, 8 2019 @ 09:33 AM
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originally posted by: nOraKat
How am I "conflating symbols and purposefully misrepresenting their origins"?


By wrongfully claiming the HRE used heraldry when it did not for many centuries and by not properly attributing that symbol (the eagle) to the Romans who are the obvious contributors.




posted on Jan, 8 2019 @ 10:07 AM
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a reply to: nOraKat

That's a very tenuous link. The Great Britain, or England were never part of the Holy Roman Empire. You are looking for coincidence to prove a point that's pointless.

Edit to add in order to be constructive, that although English / UK monarchs may have been married to, or from members of other royal houses across Europe they did not bring their foreign "traditions" with them. For example:

- The Habsburg Philip II of Spain marrying the English Queen Mary I: On the death of Queen Mary (aka Bloody Mary, because of her Catholic tendency to kill Protestants), Philip lost his right to anything to do with the English throne and spent his life trying to ferment strife in England, but if anyone knows their history the English had the last laugh over the crag-faced bigot.
- George I was related to the British throne and on ascension as King made his European titles became secondary by law. While George may have been a German he did not turn England into an appendage of the Holy Roman Empire, or anything similar thing. By George I's time of course, most power in England rested with Parliament anyway.

The coats of arms and other devices of England and later the UK were not influenced by the Holy Roman Empire, and any item of similarity is just coincidence.
edit on 8/1/2019 by paraphi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2019 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: nOraKat

Well historically the church has used different methods to control countries

In the modern age I would say the cardinals are the ones in control and its been said that they actually control the Mafia and not just the Italians

I would imagine they use intelligence money and whatever hidden treasures are buried deep in the vaults of the Vatican



posted on Jan, 8 2019 @ 11:15 AM
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a reply to: paraphi

Not sure where you get your info but there was a Roman conquest of Britain and they maintained control of parta of it for many centuries.

I cant recall exact datss but Roman influence over Britain exist until near the end of the millenia



posted on Jan, 8 2019 @ 12:14 PM
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a reply to: toysforadults

I get my info from the historical record. The Romans came over to Britain in AD 43 and stayed for 400 years, or so, and rather faded away. Not sure how this links to the Holy Roman Empire, as per the OP, which came about a few hundred years from the Roma episode in Britain, and whose symbolism was clearly influenced by the Roman Empire.

edit on 8/1/2019 by paraphi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 07:03 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: nOraKat
How am I "conflating symbols and purposefully misrepresenting their origins"?

By wrongfully claiming the HRE used heraldry when it did not for many centuries ..


The HRE did use heraldry. I never said they used it from the beginning. That point would be irrelevant.



..and by not properly attributing that symbol (the eagle) to the Romans who are the obvious contributors.


I said in my OP -

"This fibulae was used to fasten clothing, such as cloaks. One article says the Visigoths or Goths may have gotten this design from the Romans."


I agree. It originates from the Romans, or even earlier than that - The Hittites, related groups and it was also found in the Sumerian city of Lagash.

(Hittie double-headed eagle. Alaca Höyük city gate, Turkey (1450-1180 BCE))





The earliest depiction of the double-headed eagle can be found on ancient monuments in central Anatolia in the ancient Kingdom of the Hittites. As an example we can mention, a temple devoted to the priestly rituals dedicated to the cult of the two-headed eagle because the Hittites venerated the double headed eagle (also known as the Hittite Bird of the Sun) as the King of Heaven. The bird symbolized the Hittite military power. At the beginning of the early 19th century, excavations conducted by Charles Texier, in an old Hittite capital (Boğazkale) in modern-day Turkey, revealed cylindrical seals depicting two-headed eagle with spread wings. The motif of the double-headed eagle dates back to c. 3800 BC.
(source)


The bird also appears in Lagash, an ancient Sumerian city and was the symbol for Ninurta, son of Enlil and god of the city. The prominent Assyriologist, M. Thureau Dangin writes that a French archaeologist, M. de Sarzec found in the unearthed ruins of a temple, two cylindrical seals. One of these has upon it the recitation of a King, who says: "The waters of the Tigris fell low and the store of provender ran short in this my city." He goes on to tell that this was a visitation of the gods. He, therefore, submitted his case to the divinities of the land. He dreamed, as a result, a holy dream in which there came to him a divine man whose stature towered, (as that of a mighty god in Babylonia should) from earth to heaven and whose head was crowned with the coronet of a god surmounted by the Storm Bird, "that extended its wings over Lagash and the land thereof."
(source)

It is also used on the cover of Morals and Dogma published in 1871 by the Supreme Council of the Scottish Rite.


edit on 9-1-2019 by nOraKat because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 07:17 AM
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a reply to: paraphi


The coats of arms and other devices of England and later the UK were not influenced by the Holy Roman Empire, and any item of similarity is just coincidence.


I don't think anyone can make that statement with confidence unless you were there and part of the ruling class to see what is going on. I don't think the passing on of identical heraldry is a coincidence imo. They are not just any lions.. they are very distinctive.

Furthermore before the HRE, much of Great Britain (well it didn't exist yet) but the territories were joined with the Roman empire:


Power structures that last for hundreds or thousands of years do not just dissolve over night, imo.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 07:35 AM
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originally posted by: nOraKat
The HRE did use heraldry. I never said they used it from the beginning. That point would be irrelevant.


The eagle you are showing is a much later adoption, I told you it's origins, it has nothing to do with anything other than borrowing it from the Romans. The lineage is clear.



I said in my OP-
"This fibulae was used to fasten clothing, such as cloaks. One article says the Visigoths or Goths may have gotten this design from the Romans."

...

I agree. It originates from the Romans


Then what are you on about? You basically just made a bunch of posts to come around and agree with what I said in my first post.



edit on 9-1-2019 by AugustusMasonicus because: Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 07:39 AM
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a reply to: nOraKat

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an eastern influence over western culture the further back you go. My DNA according to historical research projects comes from Siberia (Denisovan as well).

In fact much of the symbolism may in fact come from the predeluvian world.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 08:28 AM
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a reply to: toysforadults

Inspired by your statement, I dug up some pictures:



(..though that guy with the black hat in this last picture on the right might look nefarious.. lol)

The problem with this idea, I think, is that Cardinals and the Pope may not have the intelligence or military background to run such operations.


The Jesuits on the other hand was established by a nobleman with a military background:

Accordingly, the opening lines of the founding document declared that the society was founded for "whoever desires to serve as a soldier of God[a] to strive especially for the defence and propagation of the faith and for the progress of souls in Christian life and doctrine." Jesuits are thus sometimes referred to colloquially as "God's soldiers", "God's marines", or "the Company", which evolved from references to Ignatius' history as a soldier and the society's commitment to accepting orders anywhere and to endure any conditions.
- source

(jesuit superior general Adolfo Nicolás Pachón)

But the Jesuit superior general looks like he can be a badass. But seriously even him, his history is studying philosophy and working at missionaries. I wonder if he would be capable of orchestrating world domination?

But who knows maybe there are some more permanent, qualified figures pulling strings in the background.

Where do you think these ideas of the Vatican exerting world domination comes from?

But yeah, it looks like in the past they were involved in military operations/wars and and movements which assassinated people.

Like, just now I'm reading about the Counter-reformation/Roman Inquisition -

the Roman Inquisition was responsible for prosecuting individuals accused of committing offenses relating to heresy, including Protestantism, sorcery, immorality, blasphemy, Judaizing and witchcraft, as well as for censorship of printed literature.


For example, this person - Pietro Carnesecchi was publicly beheaded and then burned. (source)



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 08:40 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


The eagle you are showing is a much later adoption..


Right.. that is what my OP is bringing attention to - The later adoptions - the first two pictures in my OP.

It is my opinion that the striking resemblance between the coat of arms for Austria, and the Great Seal of the US, is not a mere coincidence, as you believe - that it was merely adopted independently by the two countries. I believe it is indicative of a statement - that the US has been under sufficient control of the old world power structures all along.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 09:17 AM
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originally posted by: nOraKat
It is my opinion that the striking resemblance between the coat of arms for Austria, and the Great Seal of the US, is not a mere coincidence, as you believe...


Do you have some sort of issue reading? My very first post said it was borrowed from the Romans which would make it very intentional.



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