Good Brexit Bad Brexit What's the difference ?

In the last 10-15 years , the EU has suffered a democratic problem sufficient to warrant the referendum result as being necessary and entirely valid ... the correct choice was 'leave' .
The problem consists of the fact that the political umbrella group called the EPP has gradually taken over all EU policy , to the point where their power is now absolute . This problem is obfuscated by a widespread lack of will to define it .
When discussion of any Brexit deal takes place , people imagine that we are debating it with the 'EU 27' , as in , all the other countries that form the EU membership . But , the EU has fronted one chief negotiator , Jean Michel Barnier , who of course , represents only the party of EU power , the EPP , who in turn , control all EU policy decisions .

What matters in political governance is who controls policy . Control of policy itself is so important that everything else becomes subservient and is ordered by it . And we can be assured that the EPP is in control of EU policy in the parliament the commission and the council .

In 2009 , the UK Conservative Party departed from the oversight of the EPP by rejecting membership of it , over policy disputes . In 2016 , PM Cameron visited Donald Tusk (EPP) to ask for concessions because the UK was losing out financially from EU membership , and shortly after that, the referendum question was posed . Tusk had refused to conceed anything.making it plain that the UK was to be locked into disadvantageous conditions over which it had little say .

Without it's EPP membership , the ruling UK Conservatives had no access to the inside track of European politics , and at the same time no weight to carry in EU parliament or commission meetings . No control , over EU policy . And as put before, all because the EPP had majority control of Europe .

This meant the UK had to take laws and policy as defined by Europe's defacto masters , the EPP . Having signed up to the EU in good faith in the 70s , by the early 2000s the UK had now become simply a plenary portion of a larger machine and various constitutional acts had undermined our position
and we had been helplessly giving way to the EPP .

Often , how things 'should' work and how they 'do' work are two different things , and that has been increasingly the case in matters of EU policy .
Circumvention of the absoluteness of EPP power today is not possible without Brexit . The EPP are now so far removed from democratic control thatS there is no other solution . Britain has always been a world leader and it took the brave decision to reject the creeping federalisation of the region and the disintegration of any meaning to the words democracy in Europe .

So , notwithstanding the brevity of this historical overview , to the question . Bad Brexit or good Brexit in regard to PM Theresa May's touted 'deal' ?

How can we define for ourselves , the Brits , if it is in our best interests going forward ? Well there is one issue which is way more important than any other matter , and it is that of policy . Policy : who controls it . If you like , the true sovereignty of governance .

The UK does need a deal with Europe , over trade . It needs to negotiate with its nearest partners , to align laws and customs , for practical reasons . That's ok , it was the purpose of the EU, previously the ECSC, in the first place .

BUT , the UK does not need to have policy dictated to it by uncontrolled undemocratic unfriendly political forces ,

SO do we get back control over all and any further policy decisions ?

IF we do , then ok , TM has practically extricated the UK from further political subservience to the EPP policy machine : good Brexit

IF we don't , and UK sovereignty in policy affairs is not returned in full , including in all legal arrangements : bad Brexit

The difference is simply control over policy .



Withdrawal deal in detail link

a reply to: DoctorBluechip

Look I don't like it either that conservatives have the majority in Europe, but to call them undemocratic is taking it a little too far.
I don't get your last sentence are you suggesting Theresa May and her team aren't British?

I really hope you get what you wish for, Brexit with no deal. But even that wouldn't teach you a lesson you'd still blame Europe...
It's a typical English fault, you think you're bigger, funnier, smarter and more important than you really are. By far. And I mean far. Like a lot too far. An insanely huge lot too far. Like crazy huge. Unfathomably crazy huge lot by far the farest too far.
With your tiny island all you have is symbolic hold over the former commonwealth but in reality they divorced you a long time ago. And now you're craving for complete isolation. It's funny and sad to watch.
Sail into the sunset already and never come back...

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: DoctorBluechip

Look I don't like it either that conservatives have the majority in Europe, but to call them undemocratic is taking it a little too far.
I don't get your last sentence are you suggesting Theresa May and her team aren't British?

I really hope you get what you wish for, Brexit with no deal. But even that wouldn't teach you a lesson you'd still blame Europe...
It's a typical English fault, you think you're bigger, funnier, smarter and more important than you really are. By far. And I mean far. Like a lot too far. An insanely huge lot too far. Like crazy huge. Unfathomably crazy huge lot by far the farest too far.
With your tiny island all you have is symbolic hold over the former commonwealth but in reality they divorced you a long time ago. And now you're craving for complete isolation. It's funny and sad to watch.
Sail into the sunset already and never come back...

Out of touch much?

The European commission is an unelected body which proposes policy. It is the route of policy and Regulations.

Do you understand how that is undemocratic?

Then, on top of that, any policy or Regulation has to be agreed by 27 -28 countries who each have a different agenda. Meaning we have 3% input into our laws?

Understand how that is undemocratic?


Take oranges for instance! A levy on oranges imported to protect Spanish orange farmers means UK has to pay more for oranges! But likewise there will be policy that works the other way around.


Your attitude in your reply is loaded with condescending tone.

Your generalisation that the English think they are better than they are is insulting at best - a lefty would call that racist.

We want control of our laws THAT IS IT - THAT IS IT!

Too much to ask?


Jeezzz you got issues.

Personally, I think any politician that gives away any of our democratic voting rights and freedoms to unelected foreign bureaucrats should be tried for treason!

a reply to: and14263

Ha and you seriously don't get why the epp has a majority in Europe. You're all just hurt feelings but in reality, if you could find a rational moment you'd see that those people in Brussels get sent there from their parties in numbers that equal how many votes (the thing democrats do you heard of it?) the party got at home.
I'm not saying it's a perfect system but only an idiot wouldn't see that it's democratic.
I'm so sick and tired of you Brits crying about how you have no control over what's going on on your raft, just because you had to accept two or three compromises.
Ever heard of that word "compromise"? Also a very democratic thing. The problem is not the EU it's you.
Shut up and just leave already. Whatever comes afterwards is on you not Europe.

You won't be able to afford any oranges soon enough, because that's what you want even if you don't understand that.

a reply to: Peeple

With your tiny island

Tiny island yes.

However it has still given far more to the world than your country ever did.

a reply to: alldaylong

Sure if you say so. Exploitation and robbed treasures. If you talk about the colonies. Fraud and failure if you talk about science.
But that you go all nationalist, my little tribesman, shows how far you gotten in your socio-cultural evolution

It's an interesting observation around the way British politics and debate seems negatively received. The EU negotiating team seem perplexed.

1. I am perfectly content with the level and content of the political debate in the UK, and would be annoyed if there was not constant argument and bickering. The impact on the UK has been endlessly debated and open for discussion.

2. I am surprised that there has been zero debate in the EU. The only debate has been with unelected bureaucrats. There has been NO published impact of Brexit on the EU that has received any attention. Even member states who would be adversely impacted by Brexit have been muted.

The lack of any discussion in the EU indicates the democratic deficit and the woeful lack of transparency and accountability. The fact that they don't recognise that is telling.

a reply to: Peeple

Look I don't like it either that conservatives have the majority in Europe, but to call them undemocratic is taking it a little too far.

When unelected non-British commissars make laws that are applicable to the UK but may be contrary to the UK's best interests that, in my humble opinion, is undemocratic.

I don't get your last sentence are you suggesting Theresa May and her team aren't British?

I don't understand how you would get that from the OP's last sentence....but she sure is either totally incompetent and / or complicit in the betrayal of the British electorate.

I really hope you get what you wish for, Brexit with no deal.

So does nearly every single person I've spoken to - No Deal is better than a bad deal!

But even that wouldn't teach you a lesson you'd still blame Europe...

And that my friend is the crux of the matter; European arrogance wanting to punish the UK for exercising its Right to Self-Determination and regain its sovereignty from Brussels.

I don't blame Europe for anything....but I do dislike the EU and I personally have no desire to be a part of a political union.

Anti-EU is not anti-European.

It's a typical English fault,....

Woah, hang on a minute fella....first of all its the UK and not just England.
Secondly, your arrogance is already so obvious and your anti-English bigotry clearly clouds your viewpoint.

....you think you're bigger, funnier, smarter and more important than you really are.

Actually we don't....the thing is, so many non-Brits do think that and as a result are insanely jealous and it is that which feeds their anti-British rhetoric.

By far. And I mean far. Like a lot too far. An insanely huge lot too far. Like crazy huge. Unfathomably crazy huge lot by far the farest too far.

Point proven methinks.

With your tiny island all you have is symbolic hold over the former commonwealth.....

We have no hold over The Commonwealth, just a familial bond.

.... but in reality they divorced you a long time ago.

Which is why we always have each other's back?

They are true friends we can rely on - unlike some I could mention - and we have a huge debt of honour to them.

And now you're craving for complete isolation.

Not at all, just sovereignty.
We still want to trade with the EU - which is the agreement the UK signed up to and not political union - we still have many shared interests and still wish to work closely in many areas with our continental neighbours....just no political union.
What really is hard about that to understand?

It's funny and sad to watch.

As is your jealousy driven bitterness.

Sail into the sunset already and never come back...

I think we'll get the call from the continent - yet again - before we need their assistance.

a reply to: Peeple

Lets start with Language. What is the language called you are using? English i believe.

Sport. Nearly every major sport played throughout the world was invented in Britain

The Industrial Revolution. That speaks for itself.

Science and technology.

We even invented The U.S.

a reply to: paraphi

Or lack of interest because
1. nobody wants to stop you as you've been doing nothing good for anybody in the EU but demand special treatment for yourself
2. you are easy to replace, trade wise

I saw a lot of debate about Brexit in the member states. It just never goes very far, because everybody agrees how perplexing it is you want to shoot yourself so much. Not in the foot. Shoot yourself. Basta.

a reply to: Peeple

Why do you need to be condescending?

Two or three compromises?

Here are some examples of why the EU is not good:

Greece has voted twice for Syrizia anti-austerity party and once to reject EU bailout in a referendum. The EU and IMF ignored their votes and crippled their economy further using a debt extension. Undemocratic

In Italy Berlusconi was forced out and replaced by Monti - elections were suspended for two years. Undemocratic

2016 - The un-elected EC forced Portugal's socialist government to abandon anti-austerity - even though the people of Portugal voted for it. Undemocratic.

But of course, one size fits all.

You know best.

English people are just crying.


Stop being condescending and bring some facts to the table.

a reply to: alldaylong

What did the Romans ever do for us?

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: alldaylong

What did the Romans ever do for us?

Their spagetti was ok.

a reply to: Peeple

Oh and to add...

The left side of the spectrum who want to remain and vote Labour.... Corbyn wants to renationalise the railways.

Great idea?

Illegal in the eyes of the EU. See the First Railway Directive which was amended in 2012.

a reply to: Freeborn

You have no clue. I've been to the UK often, I love the people, the language, ... that's why this insanity is driving me so mad.
Nobody wants to punish you, you just can't have the big cake, be part of it (trading union) but not be part of it (regulations)
You value some abstract nice word "sovereignity" more than reality. You completely lost your marbles! What you'll get from that is cheap but uneatable Chlorid Chicken, you will become the aggricultural dump of the US and Australia. You simply don't have anything but the banking sector and that is strongly depending on continental Europe.
But do you see the generosity the EU has shown in that regards? No you still whine about how you "get punished"...

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: Peeple

Lets start with Language. What is the language called you are using? English i believe.

Sport. Nearly every major sport played throughout the world was invented in Britain

The Industrial Revolution. That speaks for itself.

Science and technology.

We even invented The U.S.

English is the best language, but that's not something you accomplished it developed.
The industrial revolution would have taken place without you too Watts was Scottish not English.
Newton was crazy he was a big alchemist. There is a certain pattern, genius and insanity go hand in hand they say. That's true. You see? You need a nanny, or you straight walk off a cliff...

a reply to: Peeple

So are we just ignoring my factual reasons as to why the EU is bad?

Better to be emotional and condescending than factual.

originally posted by: PeepleIt's a typical English fault, you think you're bigger, funnier, smarter and more important than you really are. By far. And I mean far. Like a lot too far

You just turned a remainer into a Brexiteer. You flaming Germans with attitudes like that made you lose every war you ever set out on. Unbelievable. Sooner we're out the better

a reply to: and14263

Nationalising the railway only makes sense if it implies the customers can use it for free. Make the net national not the whole thing and nobody would be against it.