'Grange' - Inclusions, Crystals or maybe even Life Signs on Mars

a reply to: LookingAtMars

For some the evidence is ambiguous, for others not. Below are two threads that might be of interest:

Is NASA Running Away From Life on Mars?
Martian Blueberries - Revisiting The Odd Spherules of Meridiani Planum

a reply to: wildespace

Even if someone on that forum knew one hundred percent it was life they could not post it.

Their post would be removed and they would be banned for life for using the L word.

a reply to: jeep3r

Thanks for the links

originally posted by: LookingAtMars
a reply to: wildespace

Even if someone on that forum knew one hundred percent it was life they could not post it.

Their post would be removed and they would be banned for life for using the L word.

What does that have to do with the quote I posted?

If someone knew one hundred percent it was life, they better present their findings to the scientific community and bag that Nobel Prize.

a reply to: Phage

Back around 2009, we had "miniaturized" SEM units and Gas Chromatographs that could have fit into the space of a small desktop PC.

I wondered why Curiosity was not fitted with a SEM (in the SAM package), as coupled with the existing Gas Chromatograph, would be able to categorically prove that something was life (living or dead), or not.

I mean, all of the effort, to not have this instrument when it was available well before the 2011 launch, is just a problem for me.

originally posted by: charlyv
a reply to: Phage

Back around 2009, we had "miniaturized" SEM units and Gas Chromatographs that could have fit into the space of a small desktop PC.

I wondered why Curiosity was not fitted with a SEM (in the SAM package), as coupled with the existing Gas Chromatograph, would be able to categorically prove that something was life (living or dead), or not.

I mean, all of the effort, to not have this instrument when it was available well before the 2011 launch, is just a problem for me.

I think it's because each mission has a strict choice in what instruments it's going to carry and for which purposes the mission is for. Everything is planned and approved years ahead of the launch. Curiosity's mission is to study the martian environment and geology, including any signs of past habitability. It wasn't sent there to search for life or to identify signs of past life (like fossils), therefore instruments like SEM were not included.

The next Mars rover will specifically look for signs of past life, although a SEM is not included in its instrumentation.

originally posted by: wildespace
If someone knew one hundred percent it was life, they better present their findings to the scientific community and bag that Nobel Prize.

Exactly. It sure would be horrible to be banned for life from a news board and the only thing you'd have to show for it was immortal fame as the person who spilled the beans about life on Mars. That would be so sad.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: LookingAtMars

We have no boots on the ground.

And won't, I'm afraid, for a good while. Baby steps. Space is not a friendly place for humans.

The mission takes the next step by not only seeking signs of habitable conditions on Mars in the ancient past, but also searching for signs of past microbial life itself.

mars.nasa.gov...

Indeed..can't even get to the moon.

originally posted by: wildespace

originally posted by: LookingAtMars
a reply to: wildespace

Even if someone on that forum knew one hundred percent it was life they could not post it.

Their post would be removed and they would be banned for life for using the L word.

What does that have to do with the quote I posted?

Because if the poster was allowed to, they very well might of also stated

iron oxide crystals do form in conjunction with bacteriological activity

.

Then what you quoted would back up what I wrote..

maybe even Life Signs on Mars

originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: wildespace
If someone knew one hundred percent it was life, they better present their findings to the scientific community and bag that Nobel Prize.

Exactly. It sure would be horrible to be banned for life from a news board and the only thing you'd have to show for it was immortal fame as the person who spilled the beans about life on Mars. That would be so sad.

To get the Nobel Prize you would have to be able to prove it 100%, not just know it 100%. Anyways according to Gilbert Levin NASA already knows. Why haven't they claimed the Nobel Prize?

a reply to: wildespace

Well that is just it. I get the mission objectives, but when you come across some of the things like Curiosity already has, just having the right tool can jump years of speculation. It is like trying to play 18 rounds of golf without a putter and a 9 iron, or a left fielder stepping on the field without a glove, because they think there won't be any fly balls that day.

Now, in a new mission, the decision to not having a SEM is absolutely ridiculous, if the objective is looking for life. There could be discoveries that could not be proven without it. It is like they do not really want to find life anyway, and that is subject to some real speculation as to what they are really going there for?

As the people funding all of this, we should just collectively tell them what we want, and the equipment we want them to bring.

a reply to: charlyv

Exactly. I mean this looks really cool:

Mars Helicopter Scout (MHS) is a planned solar powered helicopter drone with a mass of 1.8 kg (4.0 lb) that is expected to help pinpoint interesting targets for study and plan the best driving route for the rover.[48] The small helicopter is expected to fly up to five times during its 30-day testing, and will fly no more than 3 minutes per day. It is a technology demonstrator that will form the foundation on which more capable helicopters can be developed for aerial exploration of Mars and other planetary targets with an atmosphere.[49][50]

But a SEM would be so much more useful. It just must not be time yet to find life on Mars.

Actually, part of my job is working on scanning electron microscopes. They are large, heavy and require frequent calibration and maintenance (not to mention a large power source). None of these characteristics lend themselves to space probes dropped on another planet 40,000,000 miles from the nearest technician.

Worse yet, the sample has to be in a vacuum chamber, which means that you have to have a vacuum pump attached, which is also heavy, draws a lot of power and has to be cooled somehow (Mars' air is too think for a SEM to operate, and too thin to conduct or convect away heat efficiently).

A SEM would be a great tool for analyzing Martian samples for signs of life. However, we will either have to return samples to Earth (either robotically or from manned missions) or established a well-equipped manned base on Mars before this tool will be practical.

a reply to: Saint Exupery

Actually, it is being developed. My limited search did not reveal if there is a prototype yet or how far along development is.

Miniaturized Environmental Scanning Electron Microscope for In Situ Planetary Studies

The exploration of remote planetary surfaces calls for the advancement of low power, highly -miniatu rized instrumentation. Instruments of this nature that are capable of multiple types of analyses will prove to be particularly useful as we prepare for human return to the moon, and as we continue to explore increasingly remote locations in our Solar Syste m. To this end, our group has been developing a miniaturized Environmental -Scanning Electron Microscope ( mE SEM) capable of remote investigations of mineralogical samples through in -situ topographical and chemical analysis on a fine scale.

Microscope Will Seek Biological Samples On Red Planet

The Miniaturized Variable Pressure Scanning Electron Microscope (MVP-SEM) is a NASA-funded project based on concepts that could be used on the International Space Station and on the Moon. The next goal is to create an ESEM-type instrument that will allow scientists to study Martian geology and to look for microbes on the surface of Mars, on some yet-to-be determined mission. “By putting this capability on a rover or lander, not only can we better select the samples for return, but primarily we will be able to carry out high-quality imaging and analysis on Mars without the risk of contamination from a sample brought to the Earth for study,” said Jessica Gaskin, the principal investigator of the project.

One would think if it was a priority, it could of been built by now.

originally posted by: LookingAtMars
To get the Nobel Prize you would have to be able to prove it 100%, not just know it 100%. Anyways according to Gilbert Levin NASA already knows. Why haven't they claimed the Nobel Prize?

Could it be possible that Gilbert Levin is... wrong?

a reply to: Blue Shift

Yes, anyone can be... It happens to us all

originally posted by: Saint Exupery
Actually, part of my job is working on scanning electron microscopes. They are large, heavy and require frequent calibration and maintenance (not to mention a large power source). None of these characteristics lend themselves to space probes dropped on another planet 40,000,000 miles from the nearest technician.

Worse yet, the sample has to be in a vacuum chamber, which means that you have to have a vacuum pump attached, which is also heavy, draws a lot of power and has to be cooled somehow (Mars' air is too think for a SEM to operate, and too thin to conduct or convect away heat efficiently).

A SEM would be a great tool for analyzing Martian samples for signs of life. However, we will either have to return samples to Earth (either robotically or from manned missions) or established a well-equipped manned base on Mars before this tool will be practical.

Sorry to disagree, but I have worked with a great deal of scientific instrumentation as well, and a SEM (especially where I work), can take the footprint of a toaster, and most of that space to protect people from accidents. Your company needs some innovation.