The Pyramids Of Egypt: Relics Of An Advanced Prehistoric Civilization?

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

It would be nice if we could come across some evidence that the AE *could* work in granite? There are artifacts found, but they could be from any time.

Like the Rosetta Stone?

You could google something like "Egyptian dynasty granite statuary" and see if the images have similarities with Ancient Egyptian paintings, carvings or softer stone statues. For example, let's say several granite statues have the exact same headdresses as those depicted on dated temple walls? Or maybe a granite statue depicts a known person from a known time? These would firmly place the granite objects within a specific AE milieu and prove they created them.

If the Romans could reappropriate them from the Egyptians, there is no reason the AE could not reappropriate them from someone earlier.

There are several reasons why this didn't happen. There's a granite quarry (Aswan) from which most AE granite objects were sourced; an obelisk is still lying there half-cut from the bedrock. The quarry was littered with thousands of granite pounders. There are depictions of AE workers using these pounders that coincide with the time when the quarry was in use. There are carvings and paintings of AE labourers using drills, chisels, saws and mallets to carve the statues we see in museums across the world. There are several huge quarries (in Egypt near population centres) from where they got all their stone.

^^^ These details plant the statues and techniques within the AE timeline. They also rule out anyone else using the Aswan quarry because it was within the AE civilisation - on their doorsteps.

You're probably thinking that 'Well maybe it was ALREADY THERE when the AEs settled in. Checkmate!' Well look at the incredibly extensive evidence the AEs left behind. Middens, cemeteries, tax records, changes in fashions depicted in art, isotopic signatures (teeth, bones etc) anchoring the waste piles and bodies to the (mostly) local area. Add all the references by their neighbours too.

Ask yourself how any other culture/civilisation could have reached a technological level comparable to AE (or better) and left nothing behind but granite statues.

a reply to: ALSTA

Whatever, i still think your incapable of seeing outside the box.

now you are just being plain delusional trying to turn this onto me like you have your other 2 or 3 replies.

when you say contradicting things its not no one else mind that isn't open enough

its what you say that is the issue.

Just the type of personality the oppressors rely on to keep the truth hidden from us.

it pays well, Oops did I just let the cat out of the bag.

Paranoia is no good especially when you thing the truth of how the pyramids were build and the what the purpose is is being hidden.

Its scary when one can learn and study and research themselves, they can look at all angles of supposed knowledge and go through it.

and I mean all angles even the conspiracy side.


You should try looking at this from another perspective one that gives too much evidence to make up your mind.

But that means doing what you think I cannot do and think outside the box.


thinking outside the box is not thinking the pyramids were batteries/machines or what not.

bring as much evidence to the table that they are like what academia has to explain the structures and you may have a leg to stand on.

Ask yourself how any other culture/civilisation could have reached a technological level comparable to AE (or better) and left nothing behind but granite statues.

The biggest mistake being made here is assuming they had to be "more advanced".

If you draw a Venn diagram with one circle representing the technology of a less advanced culture, and another much bigger circle representing the technology of a more advanced culture. There is no guarantee that the smaller circle would fall entirely within the boundaries of the larger one.

It is possible for the less advanced culture to know a few things the more advanced one doesn't. Especially if they were more specialized in an area.

Suppose we go out into space and encounter a culture that has been in the steam age for 1000 years, having never advanced beyond that to internal combustion or electricity. Do you think there is a chance they might know how to do a few things with steam that we don't know how to do?

Now what if a culture has been in the stone age for 1000's of years. Having never advanced to iron or copper. Do you think they might know how to do some interesting things with stone?

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

It would be nice if we could come across some evidence that the AE *could* work in granite? There are artifacts found, but they could be from any time.

Like the Rosetta Stone?

You could google something like "Egyptian dynasty granite statuary" and see if the images have similarities with Ancient Egyptian paintings, carvings or softer stone statues. For example, let's say several granite statues have the exact same headdresses as those depicted on dated temple walls? Or maybe a granite statue depicts a known person from a known time? These would firmly place the granite objects within a specific AE milieu and prove they created them.

But were the statues made of them, or did they adopt the appearance of the statues. Check out this image for example:

upload.wikimedia.org... _arm._From_the_temple_of_Seth_at_Naqqada%2C_Egypt._The_Petrie_Museum_of_Egyptian_Archaeology%2C_London.jpg

Zoom in and look how badly carved those glyphs are. I can't completely rule out the possibility that the wear is what made them look sloppy. But some of that looks like the chiseler just went at it with a pick.

Apparently there are lots of artifacts the have similar issue. I managed to google to that one in 3 minutes.

If the Romans could reappropriate them from the Egyptians, there is no reason the AE could not reappropriate them from someone earlier.

There are several reasons why this didn't happen. There's a granite quarry (Aswan) from which most AE granite objects were sourced; an obelisk is still lying there half-cut from the bedrock. The quarry was littered with thousands of granite pounders. There are depictions of AE workers using these pounders that coincide with the time when the quarry was in use. There are carvings and paintings of AE labourers using drills, chisels, saws and mallets to carve the statues we see in museums across the world. There are several huge quarries (in Egypt near population centres) from where they got all their stone.

That stelle could have laid there for any amount of time. Left over tools and tool making sites from the paleolithic are found around Egypt all the time, simply strewn on the ground in plain sight. Still intact after all these years.

If the Egyptians settled there, it might be because there were finished obelisks nearby, and they believed those obelisks had magic powers (like the ability to absorb sun energy, or something like that.)

^^^ These details plant the statues and techniques within the AE timeline. They also rule out anyone else using the Aswan quarry because it was within the AE civilisation - on their doorsteps.

You're probably thinking that 'Well maybe it was ALREADY THERE when the AEs settled in. Checkmate!' Well look at the incredibly extensive evidence the AEs left behind. Middens, cemeteries, tax records, changes in fashions depicted in art, isotopic signatures (teeth, bones etc) anchoring the waste piles and bodies to the (mostly) local area. Add all the references by their neighbours too.

So after finding impressive stone statues, they decided to integrate that into their fashions?

I'm sorry. I just realized that link isn't working.


"https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Black_granite,_seated_statue_of_Sennefer_with_cartouche_of_Amenhotep_(Amenophis)_II_on_right_arm._From_the_te mple_of_Seth_at_Naqqada,_Egypt._The_Petrie_Museum_of_Egyptian_Archaeology,_London.jpg"

Try this link

For some reason it keeps putting a space in the word "temple", which you'll have to remove when you copy and paste. Can't seem to get it to come out right.

Ramp system found for moving blocks out of a quarry.

Livescience

Inscriptions found from Khufu's reign, leading archeologists to believe this systems was also possibly used on the Great Pyramid itself.

Dang that evidence......

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

So after finding impressive stone statues, they decided to integrate that into their fashions?

As I mentioned, there's a mountain of evidence for Ancient Egyptians and no evidence for someone else living in the area before them or even nearby them.

I know it's an attractive idea to have a lost civilisation of monument builders. Why haven't they left evidence of their existence? No, not statues. Where are all the graves, satellite towns and villages?

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

So after finding impressive stone statues, they decided to integrate that into their fashions?

As I mentioned, there's a mountain of evidence for Ancient Egyptians and no evidence for someone else living in the area before them or even nearby them.

I know it's an attractive idea to have a lost civilisation of monument builders. Why haven't they left evidence of their existence? No, not statues. Where are all the graves, satellite towns and villages?

“The Moving Finger carves; and, having carved,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to recarve half a finger,
Nor all thy Tears bring back a Whit of evidence of it.”

That there's Omar Kayyam. He oughta know.

Harte

a reply to: toysforadults

I don't see any way that could be possible. The sarcophagus alone says otherwise.
I suppose someone could invent a line of crap that might make it sound like it's true though.

Harte

a reply to: Phage

IGR J11014-6103's pulsar has a wind nebula tail.
Are you suggesting the ancients did the math that would predict this kind of behavior?
We know they had some amazing physicists that could calculate the speed of light.

originally posted by: Flavian
Ramp system found for moving blocks out of a quarry.

Livescience

The ramp is indeed interesting. However the quarry it was found near was an alabaster quarry. Alabaster is a soft stone. There is no reason to doubt the Egyptians could work in soft stones.

Also.... I'm curious about these depictions of workers cutting stone: is there any reason to believe the stone they were cutting was granite, and not a softer stone?

Inscriptions found from Khufu's reign, leading archeologists to believe this systems was also possibly used on the Great Pyramid itself.

Dang that evidence......

That's why I linked that pic. It's obvious in the picture that whoever put those cartouches there was not the maker of the statue. The writing is utterly shoddy work. The statue, however, shows excellent craftsmanship.

Two entirely different levels of stone cutting technology are in play here.

On what basis do we assume the Egyptians were not capable of using propaganda to accomplish their political goals? The Pharaoh and other rulers had to stay popular, or at least impressive. If priests loyal to you make a discovery of a statue wraught of craftsmanship unknown to your people, how many points would you gain the polls if you claimed your grandfather's people made it, and the statue is him? (Claiming it is you is refutable, but claiming it's a dead ancestor is a bit harder to disprove.)

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

So after finding impressive stone statues, they decided to integrate that into their fashions?

As I mentioned, there's a mountain of evidence for Ancient Egyptians and no evidence for someone else living in the area before them or even nearby them.

There is plenty of evidence for other people living in the area. You're just looking for a group with a specific set of traits. Traits they didn't necessarily have. And didn't need to.

It's easy to underestimate people who are different from you. Measure them according to your own ethnocentric code of what makes someone "superior" or "capable".

What if someone who fails that criteria can still carve stone?

I know it's an attractive idea to have a lost civilisation of monument builders. Why haven't they left evidence of their existence? No, not statues.

Depending on who you think carved the granite statues.

Where are all the graves,

There are graves.

satellite towns and villages?

Who says they had towns and villages? Are those a necessity for stone carvers? They can't be herdsmen traveling around in tents?


I'm debating whether or not to go into the theory of them having sonic/vibration technology. Rudiamentary by modern standards (not necessarily a complete toolbook of physics like we have now.) But if they tinkered around with it enough they might have figured out some useful tricks.

If you used a vibrating hammer/chisel you might a way to be able to cut granite like it was butter. Then the population requirement drops dramatically. And once you're working with granite, you've got a strong material that can take the place of wood for ramps and pulleys and stuff - at least theoretically.

a reply to: Cauliflower

What does what you said have to do with the fact that we are apes, not monkeys?

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

There is plenty of evidence for other people living in the area. You're just looking for a group with a specific set of traits. Traits they didn't necessarily have. And didn't need to.

Who says they had towns and villages? Are those a necessity for stone carvers? They can't be herdsmen traveling around in tents?

You're not making consistent sense. You've argued that some mystery people built several interiors of pyramids. If you want to have them appear out of nowhere, with all their ill-defined and speculative skills, we might as well say someone cast a spell and *poof* the pyramids all just appeared.

If you don't want to resort to magic, you'll have to offer something tangible to explain the who/what/where/why and when of your proposed pyramid-building travelling herdsmen. Although they don't get the wow factor, Egypt already had travelling tribes and settled agrarians who also left evidence of their existence.

Mastaba tombs were left by these pre-Dynastic peoples, but that brings us back to the beginning of the accepted architectural/cultural timeline you don't believe. Hence, it's on you to bring any evidence for your alternative history.

If you used a vibrating hammer/chisel you might a way to be able to cut granite like it was butter.

OK. Why did they litter their quarries with granite pounders?

a reply to: Kandinsky
Not to mention the patterns the pounders make on stone are still there in the quarry for anyone to see.

On the unfinished obelisk as well.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

This image might help people get a visual idea of the process. It's one of the few known depictions of workers using pounders.

Columbo might scratch his head, reach for a cigar and point out how AE had the means, the methods, the motivations and pictures of themselves all doing it.

Nobody is seriously debating that the Egyptian method wouldn't work - ON SOFTER STONES.

The question is whether it would work in granite.

originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: Kandinsky
Not to mention the patterns the pounders make on stone are still there in the quarry for anyone to see.

On the unfinished obelisk as well.

Harte

There are tool marks, but I don't think anyone has demonstrated with any reliability that they were made by diorite pounders.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

There is plenty of evidence for other people living in the area. You're just looking for a group with a specific set of traits. Traits they didn't necessarily have. And didn't need to.

Who says they had towns and villages? Are those a necessity for stone carvers? They can't be herdsmen traveling around in tents?

You're not making consistent sense. You've argued that some mystery people built several interiors of pyramids. If you want to have them appear out of nowhere, with all their ill-defined and speculative skills, we might as well say someone cast a spell and *poof* the pyramids all just appeared.

You mean like the knowledge of how to shape spear tips by flaking chert? (A substance slightly harder than granite)

These people were just as smart as the ones who came later, but all of their technology was focused on stone. The tools not just for working, but to fight wars all had to come from that medium.

If you don't want to resort to magic, you'll have to offer something tangible to explain the who/what/where/why and when of your proposed pyramid-building travelling herdsmen. Although they don't get the wow factor, Egypt already had travelling tribes and settled agrarians who also left evidence of their existence.

So, I don't know what these quartz basins were really for, and the site I'm linking here does a lot of speculating, but the artifacts suggest some understanding of acoustics. And not the music making kind.

www.human-resonance.org...

I'm inclined to suggest a more mundane use, like attaching the basin to an object and making it resonate to weaken it so it can be shaped. Essentially a tool for crafting stuff.

Mastaba tombs were left by these pre-Dynastic peoples, but that brings us back to the beginning of the accepted architectural/cultural timeline you don't believe. Hence, it's on you to bring any evidence for your alternative history.

It's likely the original structure was not intended to be a tomb.

--- Although pounders could still be used in a sonic/vibration process if the vibration is being used to weaken the stone first, so the pounder can be more effective when it strikes.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Well you know those wizards at hig warts ots very possible magic was used.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Nobody is seriously debating that the Egyptian method wouldn't work - ON SOFTER STONES.

The question is whether it would work in granite.

originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: Kandinsky
Not to mention the patterns the pounders make on stone are still there in the quarry for anyone to see.

On the unfinished obelisk as well.

Harte

There are tool marks, but I don't think anyone has demonstrated with any reliability that they were made by diorite pounders.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

There is plenty of evidence for other people living in the area. You're just looking for a group with a specific set of traits. Traits they didn't necessarily have. And didn't need to.

Who says they had towns and villages? Are those a necessity for stone carvers? They can't be herdsmen traveling around in tents?

You're not making consistent sense. You've argued that some mystery people built several interiors of pyramids. If you want to have them appear out of nowhere, with all their ill-defined and speculative skills, we might as well say someone cast a spell and *poof* the pyramids all just appeared.

You mean like the knowledge of how to shape spear tips by flaking chert? (A substance slightly harder than granite)

These people were just as smart as the ones who came later, but all of their technology was focused on stone. The tools not just for working, but to fight wars all had to come from that medium.

If you don't want to resort to magic, you'll have to offer something tangible to explain the who/what/where/why and when of your proposed pyramid-building travelling herdsmen. Although they don't get the wow factor, Egypt already had travelling tribes and settled agrarians who also left evidence of their existence.

So, I don't know what these quartz basins were really for, and the site I'm linking here does a lot of speculating, but the artifacts suggest some understanding of acoustics. And not the music making kind.

www.human-resonance.org...

I'm inclined to suggest a more mundane use, like attaching the basin to an object and making it resonate to weaken it so it can be shaped. Essentially a tool for crafting stuff.

Mastaba tombs were left by these pre-Dynastic peoples, but that brings us back to the beginning of the accepted architectural/cultural timeline you don't believe. Hence, it's on you to bring any evidence for your alternative history.

It's likely the original structure was not intended to be a tomb.

Since they used granite obviously their methods must work on granite. Look what the romans were able to move and accomplish there level construction far exceeded the pyramids. Any group given enough time and experience will learn to work stone. I think what i find funny is we have found entire cities with graves. And in these graves we have the stories of what the person did and how they were involved in the construction of the great pyramid.

And oddly people want to ignore the fact that they existed at all. Don't take away what the egyptians managed to accomplish. You wouldn't like it if someone tried to change your history.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

That's why I linked that pic. It's obvious in the picture that whoever put those cartouches there was not the maker of the statue. The writing is utterly shoddy work. The statue, however, shows excellent craftsmanship.

That dumbass couldn't read or write too well.

But he was damned good at working stone.

originally posted by: dragonridr


Since they used granite obviously their methods must work on granite. Look what the romans were able to move and accomplish there level construction far exceeded the pyramids. Any group given enough time and experience will learn to work stone. I think what i find funny is we have found entire cities with graves. And in these graves we have the stories of what the person did and how they were involved in the construction of the great pyramid.

And oddly people want to ignore the fact that they existed at all. Don't take away what the egyptians managed to accomplish. You wouldn't like it if someone tried to change your history.

If the AE did build the granite cores of these 4 structures, it would be interesting to know the specifics of it. What we have here is lost history, and probably very interesting history.


Saying a diorite pounder approach would not work, if anything, honors the AE by the suggestion that they perhaps had greater technology than what we know of them.


However, as I've mentioned : evidence is lacking of the Egyptians actually being able to work in granite. I'm looking but I'm not finding anything. If they could use it at all, they certainly didn't prefer it. It is interesting that they didn't prefer it, considering how impressive the structures made from it are.


Lifting, for example, would be easier if you had the ability to make parts of your crane out of granite. It is, in some ways, even better than wood (which we all know was very scarce in Egypt.)

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: Kandinsky

Well you know those wizards at hig warts ots very possible magic was used.

Just goes to show that any technology unfamiliar to us will appear to be magic.

The Modern world doesn't make very extensive use of mechanical waves, even though the physics tell us that there is quite a lot of untapped potential in this field. It's just not very intuitive and many of our engineers don't like to work with it.

If you're not careful, the math will quickly become so complicated that a computer can't model it. (Or it would need to sit and calculate for years to get an answer.) This makes it uncompetitive when compared with other technologies that can be modeled quickly and accurately, which makes other technologies much easier to implement.

But if all you had was stone, and plenty of free time, you might just keep trying and erroring until you get it.