Some thoughts on North Korea and Kim Jong-Un.

a reply to: Byrd

Byrd... you didn't seriously just do that, right? Please tell me you didn't. Of all the people on here, someone I have the highest respect for is actually listening to North Korean propaganda from a strictly controlled North Korean source, and believing it?

From your own source:

SINGAPORE—North Korea said Wednesday that President Donald Trump had told Kim Jong Un that he intended to halt U.S.-South Korea military exercises and lift sanctions against the North, suggesting through its state media that Mr. Trump had explicitly acceded to two longstanding North Korean demands during bilateral talks at their summit meeting a day earlier.

The first three words.... the first three damn words! "North Korea says"! You would put more faith in what a state-controlled media said than in what our own leader said? My God in Heaven, has the entire world gone insane? How can you hold your head up? I know you have family in the military, and your allegiance to our enemies, to a hermit dictatorial nation with a 40-year history of the worst human rights atrocities known to mankind today, can't be anything but a slap in the face to them and to every other soldier who ever wore a uniform!

For shame!

The rest of that link is behind a paywall, but here's the entire agreement from your other link:

The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new US-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity. (DPRK stands for the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the formal name of North Korea.)

The US and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

Reaffirming the April 27, 2018, Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

The US and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

That's it! That's all he signed! What part of that do you object to? Establishing relations with the goal of peace and prosperity? Building a lasting, stable peace? Denuclearization? Recovering the remains of our fallen?

WHICH ONE ARE YOU ANGRY ABOUT?

As the daughter and sister of high ranking Army officers, I can say that this action is very problematic and shows a poor understanding of the value of the exercises (and of how they are funded as well.)

As the son of a soldier who served in the Korean War, on the front lines, your ignorance and hatred offends me. Dad lost friends and companions in that war, people he had come to care about. How dare you disrespect his and their service, and the service of your own family members?

This statement shows how little you know about the value of the exercises. They are a show of force. Period. A show of force put in place to hopefully quell any thoughts of attack from a rogue country to the Northwest. A country we are trying to make peace with, finally.

You also don't seem to understand that no soldiers are being removed. Trump said he would like to remove them in the future. Do you want them to stay there in harm's way for eternity? Or would you rather have our soldiers serving at home in a time of peace? How long do you think it takes to restart the training exercises? Those boys (and girls) can be in the air within seconds of getting the order to do so. Seconds!

Despite the skewed reports, Moon doesn't seem to have nearly as big a problem with this as you do. Remember? He held his own summit with Kim, shook his hand, welcomed him to South Korea, and talked re-unification.

I can't even type any more... wallow in your ignorance. Of all people...

Pathetic!

TheRedneck

a reply to: Bloodydagger



Strange Inheritance comes to mind.

I wonder when Un is alone how many times he thinks, "this totally sucks"



Sometimes there ain't many choices.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
I am not framing your posts; you are. You have, by your own words, decided that any attempt to negotiate with Kim is futile. Ergo, you are accepting war as your choice as there are no other choices. You stop. Please. War is bad.

Actually no. I'm not doing that. So since you can't respect my opinion I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest of your post.

a reply to: seagull

I just want a good job to be done when it comes to negotiating with this weasel. He has broken promises in the past and going there, giving up a ton of concessions and declaring he is trustworthy after only talking to him for a few minutes sends up TONS of red flags to me considering his past action. As such, I'm not afraid to call out a bad job when I see it and Trump did a BAD job in the diplomacy department. There are ways he could have done it much better, but he (Trump) doesn't care about outside opinions. It's either his way or the highway, and frankly jobs like this should necessitate the expertise of someone knowledgeable on the region and history of the country's politics. Negotiating peace with a country like this is a delicate procedure and Trump went in like he was using a baseball bat to perform brain surgery.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: seagull

I just want a good job to be done when it comes to negotiating with this weasel. He has broken promises in the past and going there, giving up a ton of concessions and declaring he is trustworthy after only talking to him for a few minutes sends up TONS of red flags to me considering his past action. As such, I'm not afraid to call out a bad job when I see it and Trump did a BAD job in the diplomacy department. There are ways he could have done it much better, but he (Trump) doesn't care about outside opinions. It's either his way or the highway, and frankly jobs like this should necessitate the expertise of someone knowledgeable on the region and history of the country's politics. Negotiating peace with a country like this is a delicate procedure and Trump went in like he was using a baseball bat to perform brain surgery.

Lay it out for us. show the world your wisdom.

How should Trump have done this?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

To be fair he's only been handled using punishment for bad behavior so far. This is the first real time the reward for good behavior method has been used. The promise is to better north korea and himself and give them better respect and standing in the world if they play ball. This is a big improvement from hitting him with a newspaper calling him a bad dog and then holding the paper over his head telling him to behave or get smacked again.

a reply to: Puppylove

To be fair? Respect? Why does Kim deserve respect or fairness?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Negotiating peace with a country like this is a delicate procedure

Picture of where that got the last three administrations:

Trump went in like he was using a baseball bat to perform brain surgery.

Walk tall and carry a big stick. Picture of where that got Trump.


Nobody was calling foul about Iran's human rights violations during the terrible Iran Deal. Your selective outrage is boring.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Puppylove

To be fair? Respect? Why does Kim deserve respect or fairness?

Maybe cause he is a human being? You're the one echo cambering the lefts negative spin on this with your main point being about human rights violations.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Because why in the hell should he change if he'll be treated like a mangy curr for trying? What kind of cognitive dissonance must you all have to think any positive change is going to come from telling someone they are # no matter what they do? Give peace a #ing chance and give the guy the benefit of the doubt and the respect choosing peace deserves. Because the only way this can work is we give this an honest shot. He's not gonna change if you refuse to give him a chance to and punish him even when he's doing the right thing. Reward good actions only punish the bad and leave room for positive change and growth.

a reply to: Puppylove

So that means we just ignore his human rights violations and pretend they never happened? I fail to see how he'll change if you completely ignore talking about the things he even did wrong.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Puppylove

So that means we just ignore his human rights violations and pretend they never happened? I fail to see how he'll change if you completely ignore talking about the things he even did wrong.

ever heard of a concession??? There were many in deals past....

Do I need to remind you of the billions and billons of concessions?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Because he's the leader, whatever we may think of him, of a nation with nuclear weapons...weapons he got in no small part to previous administrations less than stellar dealings with him.

...

...and no, I'm not referring to just Obama. Every administration since the armistice was signed has had the opportunity to deal with KIm Il Sung, Kim Jung Il, and the current Kim. That armistice was signed more than half a century ago.

Obama had 8 years to figure out a way to deal with him. Didn't. Bush, both of 'em, had a combined 12 years. Clinton 8. Do you see the long term failures yet?

Trump is trying it the old fashioned way, sitting down at a table and talking. If it doesn't work, so? What else is new? If it does, it'll drive many folks absolutely nuts. Won't it?

You seem to be implying that you've a better notion of what to do. Lay it out there. Maybe you do.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

As they all happened while he was not part of any unification of nations and thus a completely sovereign nation, yes actually.

BUT see here's the thing, one of the main things little Kimmy wants is to be one of the big boys, to be a recognized player and have the respect that comes with it.

So if you want those abuses to stop, if you want North Korea to become a more humane place, if you want to improve the lives of the people in North Korea then you need to give Kim the chance to try.

In a way giving him this chance also traps him into living up to the expectations being a world leader comes with.

Either that or we could not give him this chance and go to war to remove him and create the Iraq and Saddam Hussein situation, North Korea version. In other words putting North Koreans, South Koreans, our soldiers and probably China through a hellish regime change all because you can't give peace a chance and want to punish little Kimmy.

a reply to: Puppylove

Well said.

None of that excuses his past actions which are, and will remain, reprehensible.

But, unfortunately, it is what it is, and he's the person that South Korea, the United States, and Japan have to deal with.

a reply to: seagull

Oh I completely agree, but I can't help but wonder how much of that might have been avoided if when the regime change occurred and Kim took over our leaders had chosen to treat it as the possibility for a new beginning and approached him as a new person with new possibilities rather than like his forefathers.

If our leaders had approached him in friendship with the offer of a new beginning with a chance to help him and his nation grow instead of treating him like his forefathers, treating him as not worth the time of day, and continuing to heap punishment on him if he didn't do what he was told with nothing but the lessening of punishment already heaped upon him from before he took the thrown if he did so.

This whole situation has forced me to reevaluate Kim and the North Korea situation. I used to be in the Kim is an irredeemable crazy psychopath for whom the only possibility is removal and the wars that come with it. Now that I look closer I realize there's more than one side to this story.

a reply to: Puppylove

Even his Dad might have been willing to at least talk, had anyone bothered to make the attempt.

Too scary a prospect is my supposition. If it goes wrong, they're afraid of a renewal of the war. A valid concern, but now, a war is all but inevitable if something new isn't tried. Only this time, we have the added spectre of nuclear weapons.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Byrd

Byrd... you didn't seriously just do that, right? Please tell me you didn't. Of all the people on here, someone I have the highest respect for is actually listening to North Korean propaganda from a strictly controlled North Korean source, and believing it?

From your own source:

SINGAPORE—North Korea said Wednesday that President Donald Trump had told Kim Jong Un that he intended to halt U.S.-South Korea military exercises and lift sanctions against the North, suggesting through its state media that Mr. Trump had explicitly acceded to two longstanding North Korean demands during bilateral talks at their summit meeting a day earlier.

The first three words.... the first three damn words! "North Korea says"! You would put more faith in what a state-controlled media said than in what our own leader said? My God in Heaven, has the entire world gone insane? How can you hold your head up? I know you have family in the military, and your allegiance to our enemies, to a hermit dictatorial nation with a 40-year history of the worst human rights atrocities known to mankind today, can't be anything but a slap in the face to them and to every other soldier who ever wore a uniform!

Before you run off "For shame!"-ing me, realize that the structure of the meeting allowed TWO different versions of the meeting to be told: one from Trump's view and one from Kim's view. The only people in the room were those two and translators.

And if you'll recall, there's been a number of situations where Trump came away from a meeting with another leader and said one thing, while everyone else said another thing. He's not good at listening, and it's absolutely possible that what Trump thought he heard wasn't what Kim was really saying.

I think that he heard what he wanted to hear.

WHICH ONE ARE YOU ANGRY ABOUT?

None of 'em. I think it's a piece of paper that Kim can wave and then do whatever he likes. Plus he got a concession on one item he's been after for a long time - ceasing exercises in the area. We got "I'm committed to it... in the future (whenever that is.)"

As the daughter and sister of high ranking Army officers, I can say that this action is very problematic and shows a poor understanding of the value of the exercises (and of how they are funded as well.)

As the son of a soldier who served in the Korean War, on the front lines, your ignorance and hatred offends me. Dad lost friends and companions in that war, people he had come to care about. How dare you disrespect his and their service, and the service of your own family members?

So did my dad. And my brother. And I'm not being disrespectful.

This statement shows how little you know about the value of the exercises. They are a show of force. Period. A show of force put in place to hopefully quell any thoughts of attack from a rogue country to the Northwest.

Yes. And with Kim's recent behavior, I see no reason to step down the situation.

A country we are trying to make peace with, finally.

We've been trying to do this for the past 50 years.

You also don't seem to understand that no soldiers are being removed. Trump said he would like to remove them in the future.

Yes. When I wrote that, I was quite aware that nobody's being moved. I do manage to read the news occasionally.

Do you want them to stay there in harm's way for eternity? Or would you rather have our soldiers serving at home in a time of peace? How long do you think it takes to restart the training exercises? Those boys (and girls) can be in the air within seconds of getting the order to do so. Seconds!

Well, no, they're not in the air that fast. And I do know how long it takes to scramble troops in an emergency (and how things have to go through command chains and everyone has to be rounded up from wherever they are, and fueling has to be done, etc, etc, etc. Hollywood movies give an unrealistic view of how long it takes to coordinate and launch an attack. The destroyers and subs my son served on can't teleport to a strike range that quickly, either.

And yes, I'd like to see the troops home. But first I want to see Kim reined in.

Despite the skewed reports, Moon doesn't seem to have nearly as big a problem with this as you do. Remember? He held his own summit with Kim, shook his hand, welcomed him to South Korea, and talked re-unification.

As they've done before. If you recall, the groundwork this time was laid back in April. They've been negotiating for peace since 1953: en.wikipedia.org...

And Bush did the talks no favors back in 2008: www.nytimes.com...


I think that the two different versions of what was said at the talks are both correct. You seem terribly upset that I would think that North Korea is saying and believing something very different than what Trump says and believes. Trump isn't running the country of North Korea, and if we want to understand how NK is going to react, we need to look at what they say they got out of it.

I also notice that the Pentagon is a bit confused and was taken by surprise on the sudden announcement of cessation of military exercises.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Puppylove

Even his Dad might have been willing to at least talk, had anyone bothered to make the attempt.

Moon's predecessor did in 2008, under Bush.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: Krazysh0t

To be fair he's only been handled using punishment for bad behavior so far. This is the first real time the reward for good behavior method has been used.

Actually, no. There's been rewards for good behavior before... stretching back to the 1950's.

The promise is to better north korea and himself and give them better respect and standing in the world if they play ball. This is a big improvement from hitting him with a newspaper calling him a bad dog and then holding the paper over his head telling him to behave or get smacked again.

He's been smacked because of things like his threatening to start a war if someone shot down his rockets (some of which came rather close to Japan) www.nbcnews.com...