Evidence for and against the Bible

I've always wondered about why YHWH never fulfilled his initial promise to the Israelites. He promises multiple times that he will drive out all of the people in the land he gave to them, but he never actually did it.

www.skepticfiles.org...

[edit on 13-2-2007 by Providence]

Originally posted by madnessinmysouland then some
he was born of a young girl like isaiah said he would
but he took it a step further and was born of a virgin

If you don't mind me springboarding off of this, madness, I thought I'd put in my two cents.

The gospels claim that Isaiah 7 is a reference to Jesus, but Isaiah never says anything about this chapter being about the Messiah. In fact, a careful reading shows that everything Isaiah predicts in chapter 7 has apparently already been satisfied . . . in chapter 8.

Chapter 7 is addressed to King Ahaz (7:1), and the significane of the child is that, before he is old enough to know the difference between good and evil, Ahaz's two enemies will be dispatched (7:14-16). Chapter 8 is addressed to Isaiah's child Mahershalalhashbaz (8:1-3) who is actually called Immanuel (8:8); God says that before Mahershalalhashbaz/Immanuel is old enough to know the difference between good and evil, Ahaz's enemies will be dispatched (8:4).

I'm sorry but why do you need evidence to believe in something? Why do you need the bible to believe in a greater existance. Screw the bible, just believe in it if you want to.. you don't need some "story" that was written long ago, you'd have to be really confused to believe in that.... anyone who's been living in the real world for the past 1000 years knows that it's pretty much jibberish.. I mean what if the bible started off with some fan club of people who just thought it was a great book and snowballed into a religion.. like star wars =P yes I am relating the bible with star wars haha. Since I know this is off-topic I will post some evidence.
- Jesus hasn't come back, no messiah has come back to "spread the word".. maybe a few psycho's who are so deeply tranced into believing that claim they are... so desperate to cling to their belief.
-All the things described in the bible are almost fairy tale-ish.. i mean seriously, you'd have to be on drugs to believe in it... a flood covering all of Earth? Hah! What was Noah doing for thousands of years waiting for the water to disappear, I'm sure the millions of species on his magical boat would have fed him for a while.
Yes i'm just a kid, I haven't done my research and I haven't even read the damn book... But from what i'm hearing, it's just unacceptable... Freaking believe in it you don't need proof (obviously, since you believe in the bible)
Haha I probably sound like an idiot.. but whatever, you go on believing in it.. it doesn't effect me.
Yes, I'm a "non-believer".. I don't know if that makes me an "aethiest" because apparently if you want to be aethiest you have to believe in something.. I just don't

Last I knew there are city and kingdoms in the bible that only the bible talks about that people are finding now in days.

Originally posted by marg6043
Was Muhammad predicted in such detail? Buddha? no.......so how then?

actually this is wrong, the coming of the Buddha was predicted in the Srimad Bhagavatam, written approx 2000 years before the coming of the Buddha. Not only was he predicted but even his name is correctly mentioned.

[edit on 3-2-2008 by sapatos]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
I will start this off with just one statement of fact which disproves the validity.

From creation it launches into a monotheistic concept, where polytheism was encountered thousands of years later. Archaeological findings have yet to uncover evidence of a one God nation, tribe or concept that is older than or even close to being as old as polytheism.

Exactly. Another very obvious piece of simple, logical evidence is this:

For ten's of thousands of years, millions of people on this planet worshiped various gods - there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of deities worshiped long before the god of the jews was invented. So, it begs the question, if there is only one god - Yahweh (the chrisyian/jewish deity) - where was he for all those thousands of years?

The answer?

The egyptian goad herders who originally worshipped him, had not created him yet.

Simple really.

J.

The egyptian goad herders who originally worshipped him, had not created him yet.

Simple really.

J.

God and Christ are out there. finding God is throw his son. No one creat God no human at least. Faith in him leading to aliment life.

lets talk a bit about jesus.

he could have only been 3 things: a liar, out of his mind/lunatic, or God's son.
amuk what do you think he was?
Muslims dont believe he is the son of God but just a prophet right?

physics and science mean nothing to this discussion. many principles of science that all of you accept do not exist outside of our world and in outerspace. and ofcourse the bible is based upon historical events. if the bible was meant as a means of control then not referencing actual history would pretty much discredit a bit, don't you think? the history of the world is most important in this discussion, and it must be agreed that our history is systematically in every single way a controlling of the masses by the powerful few. have we lost our ability to formulate our own opinions? or did we ever have them to begin with. live by christ's teachings, because what he preached is love and togetherness. understand that the church has used him to control you and to justify the slaughter of his countless innocent children. the history of the church and how they operate should be the underlying factor in this particular discussion, we do not have to wax semantics about 'truth'. whether or not any of the bible is true it has been spun to control and dominate the masses. DUH! jesus would love me for exposing those who have used him as a tool!

reply to post by Amuk


WELL, GUYS MY NAME IS ISAIAH (WHICH DOESNT MEAN I AUTOMATICALLY BELIEVE THE BIBLE BUT..) I'VE READ THEOUGH THIS FORUM AND I SEE THAT WHATS NEEDED IS EVIDENCE FOR PROOF OF THE BIBLE BEING TRUE OR FALSE, AND I AGREE THAT IF I DIDNT BELIVE IN THE BIBLE I WOULD WANT SOMETHING MORE THAN SOME RANTS OF A BELIEVER WITH NO BACKINGS, SO I COME BEARING GIFTS, HOPFULLY THE LINKS ARE STILL USEFUL, ONE IS TO A VIDEO ABOUT THE BIBLE VERSES THE MORMON BIBLE, BUT ITS GOOD BECAUSE IT SHOWS THE HISTORICAL SOUNDNESS OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE, ANOTHER LINK IS TO A WEBSITE THAT HAS TONS OF FACTS AND OTHER LINKS TO MATERIAL THAT BACK UP THE BIBLE, I ACTUALLY READ AN ARTICLE ABOUT THE DAY THE WORLD STOPPED TURNING, SCIENTISTS PROVED THAT IT HAPPEND BUT DIDNT KNOW WHY, AND OTHER SUCH THINGS, ANYWAY I HOPE THIS HELPS WHOEVER IS REALLY IN SEARCH FOR AND UNBIASED SEARCH FOR THUTH:

www.lhvm.org...


www.godsaidmansaid.com...

reply to post by Amuk


Great topic and good luck!

There is no obvious way to prove or disprove facts concerning this touchy subject matter.... The banter will be endless.. I will let my signature do the talking.

The Bible is clearly of supernatural origin. The best way to prove it is to observe the astounding number of prophecies unambiguously fulfilled. The very existence of the Jews and Israel should give you pause.

Let's just take a survey of what the world conditions are to be in the last days as predicted by the ancient Biblical text.
1) Israel would be reborn a second time (Isaiah 11:11-12 Amos 9:14-15)
2) There would be a one world government whose seat of power would be a revival of the Roman empire with 10 regional governments Dan. 7:7, Rev. 13
3) Increase of warfare and ethnic fighting (Matthew 24)
4) Increase of earthquakes disease and famine (Matthew 24)
5) A great apostasy of faith (1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2)

I could go on and on, concerning such issues as the rise of immorality, persecution of christians, antichrist religion and so forth all prophesied in detail and all coming true before your very eyes.

We can also look at past fulfillments. The exact date that Jesus publicly proclaimed himself to be the Messiah was prophesied hundreds of years previously by Daniel. There are hundreds of astounding precise prophecies concerning Jesus.

I think the evidence for supernatural origins is overwhelming. Here is a lot more info....
www.gospeloutreach.net...

I found this topic so intriguing that I had to sign up with ATS and enter a reply myself.

Anyway, I am going to avoid talking about the Old Testament for a bit and discuss the validity of the New Testament for two main reasons:

1) I am not the smartest person in the world, there are plenty of things I still do not know/understand. There is a website God and Science that could answer the big questions that adhere to the origin of the Universe and our World as we know it. It IS a Christian website however so the facts they present may not be relevant to you if you are a hardcore non-Christian. You're not going to listen to them anyway if that is the case.

2) I believe it is safe to say that, according to the Bible, what one must do to first obtain salvation [from the bondage of sin, and the eventual eternity in Hell] is to first accept Jesus Christ as the perfect Son of Man who died for your sins. It was God who came in the form of Christ to direct His children to perform his good works. And that you can only gain salvation through Christ. With the most basic understanding of what REAL Christianity is, I think the best place to begin is with the story of Christ itself. Because face it without Jesus, there would be no Bible.

Now yes there would still be the Torah and the question of how we all arrived here in the first place, but I am leaving that to the more erudite members to discuss.

I understand that some people argue that Jesus Christ never walked this Earth. They think he was a myth of some sort, a man-made figure that no one ever truly witnessed. However there is evidence that Jesus was an actual living and truly amazing person who had taught the world what I believe to be the absolute best moral code known to man.

Michael Gleghorn, a research associate for Probe Ministries with a B.A. in psychology from Baylor University and a TH.M. in systematic theology, wrote an interesting essay. Gleghorn's essay "Ancient Evidence For Jesus From Non-Christian Sources" gives a compelling argument for the existence of Christ and the events noted in the New Testament.

Evidence From Tacitus:
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements....

Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."[4] Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .[5]

What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

This is only a section of Gleghorn's essay. I am running out of room but you can find the rest of it at Probe.org. I hope that is at least substantial enough for consideration.

I also just want to add that whether or not the accounts of Jesus in the NT are valid, it is difficult to disagree with the fact that WHAT HE TAUGHT is absolutely important to our human race. Does that mean that every other moral code created is completely inaccurate and useless? Most definitely not. However the teachings of Christ are by no means threatening to society. So I understand that I can not use that for hard evidence that he lived but can someone explain why so many people were willing to DIE for him and even today, why Christianity is currently the fastest growing religion in the world? That is a pretty large influence for a mythical Jesus if you ask me.

Personally I love Jesus and I can not wait to meet him someday. I would praise the humble, compassionate "man" anyday.

The "Big Bang" theory really has non need for an outside agent. QFT, anyone?

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by infinite
What more evidence do you want??

How about evidence the universe is 6000 years old?

How about evidence for the flood?

How about evidence that the people and places mentioned really existed?

How about evidence of the sun stopping?

How about evidence Heaven? Hell?

We can talk about the codes along with Nostradamus and Silvia Brown on another thread

while im not here to argue one way or another i would like to interject a thought about what you have said here. if there is a god a creator whatever then he exsists outside of his creation it is of him but is not him.

So if this is the case than actuall scientific evidence for god would be impossible to obtain as god exsist outside the realm of science. I believe that meta-physics may contain the closest thing to proof of the exsistance of god but as meta-physics yeilds unmeasurable results and predictions then it is at worst psuedo-science and at best philosophy neither of which are known for offering up greater truths.

In other words if god is real and the bible is right then we will never know because we were not meant to. Doesnt it say in the bible that humans can only bear indirect evidence of god because he is so glorious it would destroy us to comfront him directly. pretty snazzy literary device to keep people from seeking scientific knowledge dont you think?

I guess what my point is that with out scientific evidence we cannot prove anything but if god exsists outside of physics biology astronomy etc... then looking for proof is pointless and that is why it is called faith....

I will state upfront that I have no solid evidence with which to support either side of this discusion. however, I would like to put forth a question that I feel fits in well with this line of reasoning. Why do we readily accept the christian idea of God, but disregard the older religions? What makes a monotheistic religion any more right than a polytheistic one? What evidence, besides the bible, is there to say that the Greeks had religion wrong? Or the Egyptions? Or the Inca? are science and increased world knowlege to blame for our reduction to a monotheistic world? And if so, what happens when we are finally able to explain the basic questions religion answers, where did we come from, why are we here, and what happens when we die? Does that mean we have evolved beyond any God, casting the idea aside just like we did the Gods of Olympus?
If we hold historical evidence up as proof that the Christian God exists, can we not also infer that Zeus and Quetzualquatal exist? There are written texts and historical sites associated with both dieties. But, no one ever arguese for their existence.
What makes the Christian God any better than anyother God throughout history? They all fufilled the same purpose, explaining life's mysteries. They all had large amounts of followers, phrophets, and written works dedicated to them. Is it because the civilzations that created them did not survive? If that is the case, then is religion just a case of survival of the fittest? whatever God works best at the time is the one we follow?
If anyone can answer these questions please feel free. Again, I am not trying to prove or disprove anything. Im just curious.

Personally I find the Zeitgeist explanation of Jesus and Christianity quite compelling, and thus I find the notions of a historical Jesus quite laughable, as well as worshipping "him".

The Bible is an allegorical astrological text, taken from the superior civilizations that preceeded the Israelites/Jews. They took a little knowledge, and transformed it into a dangerously misleading thing.

I have been looking into this issue for a couple of years now and there is still one question that I cannot seem to answer. I have found compelling evidence on both sides, and yet I still cannot decide if there really is a higher being out there that started this universe that we live in. I think this is a topic that can never really be answered no matter how you look at facts. I have just read all of the pages of this topic and have seen some of the most ignorant responses and yet even some of the most brilliant ideas that I would never have thought of, but the really strange thing that I have noticed is the sudden increase in non-belief posts. I know I'm being very vague on making a point. I just wanted to congradulate both sides on their efforts. Now on to the reason for this post. After reading through this extremely long discussion, I still have a question that I have been trying to answer or find someone that can give a compelling answer to. The question is, "If God is the creator of all things, then how did God come to be?" I'm sure a lot of you have heard this quesion and the believers have determined the common answer, "He has always been. He has always existed." and don't bother looking any further into it. I'm sorry, but this is not good enough for me. I need it to be based off of something, and not even the bible has this answer in it. I have put a great deal on compelling arguments, but this is one time where I am willing to drop the idea of compelling arguments for the believers on this topic, but the non-believers will still need a compelling argument. This is merely a challange that I am unable to complete. I am hoping someone out there can.