Evidence for and against the Bible

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posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 02:48 PM
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I want to start a thread to give everyone a chance to give their best evidence for and against the Bible. I would love to see this be a good debate on the factualness of the Bible so if your arguement is "the Bible is true because it says so" or "the Bible is false because God doesnt exist" then dont bother posting.

What I am looking for is proof or disproof of things like the flood, 6000 year old universe, people or events in the Bible, etc.

I would love to here the best arguements from both sides




posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 03:10 PM
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I will start this off with just one statement of fact which disproves the validity.

From creation it launches into a monotheistic concept, where polytheism was encountered thousands of years later. Archaeological findings have yet to uncover evidence of a one God nation, tribe or concept that is older than or even close to being as old as polytheism.



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 04:12 PM
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In order to prove it to non-belivers you really need to go outside the bible to find evidance to support it. And taht means historical and archeoligical. Many Roman historians metioned new Testement events during the first centruray AD

Critics used to say that the biblical description of the Hittite Empire was wrong because the Hittite Empire (they thought) didn't even exist! Archaeologists discovered the Hittite capital in 1906 and discovered that the Hittite's were actually a very vast and prominent civilization.

Within 110 years of Christ's crucifixion, approximately eighteen non-Christian sources mention more than one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom. These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus' life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity.

Scholars used to argue that a town named Nazareth didn't exist at the time of Jesus, until archaeology of the last few decades confirmed its existence.

The Gospel's portrayals of the temple, Pilate's court, Jesus' crown of thorns, and the mode of His execution have all also been confirmed.

Christian apologist Josh McDowell said that "After personally trying to shatter the historicity and validity of the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that they are historically trustworthy." More Than a Carpenter Copyright 1977

Professor Thomas Arnold, for fourteen years the famous headmaster of Rugby, author of the famous three-volume "History of Rome," appointed to the chair of Modern History at Oxford, was certainly a man familiar with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said in his work, "Sermons on the Christian Life--Its Hopes, Its Fears, and Its Close" (6th ed., London, 1859, p.324):


The evidence for our Lord’s life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad. Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up a most important cause. I myself have done it many times over, not to persuade others, but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God has given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead


there is many more I could find... but it starts to become excessive



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 04:42 PM
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The true bible codes, the hidden messages, is too complex for a human mind to write. The codes are placed with detail meanings ,and accurate aswell, that its has been proven its sciencetifically impossible for it to be coindence.

The book of Daniel and Revelations are perfect examples of how the Bible is the word of God. Example of a code in the bible that proves it before it is said to happen. Russia and Iran. The bible code predicts Russia will aid Iran when it is attacked by America/Israel..Russia has already came to the aid with Iran by stating they are not planning to build nuclear weapons.



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by Jehosephat
In order to prove it to non-belivers you really need to go outside the bible to find evidance to support it.



Exactly, that is what I am giving everyone a chance to do offer up evidence for their side.




And taht means historical and archeoligical. Many Roman historians metioned new Testement events during the first centruray AD


Links?



Within 110 years of Christ's crucifixion, approximately eighteen non-Christian sources mention more than one hundred facts, beliefs, and teachings from the life of Christ and early Christendom. These items, I might add, mention almost every major detail of Jesus' life, including miracles, the Resurrection, and His claims to deity.


Again Links?



The Gospel's portrayals of the temple, Pilate's court, Jesus' crown of thorns, and the mode of His execution have all also been confirmed.


Where? By who? When?


The evidence for our Lord’s life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been, shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad.


Can you show this evidence?



there is many more I could find... but it starts to become excessive


You have the right idea this is what I am looking for but you have shown nothing. Mostly you have claimed things are "known" but have shown nothing to back it up.

Come back with links and statements of How and Why it has been proven.

Thanks



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by infinite
The true bible codes, the hidden messages, is too complex for a human mind to write.


You can find the same "codes" in Moby Dick

What I am looking for is historical, scientific, archaeological, etc; evidence for or against. Something that could be used in court.

Lets here from the other side too



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:26 PM
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Well to start,

Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Isa 53:2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
Isa 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


This was predicted hundreds of years before it actually happened. This particular section of the Old Testament also contains some of the most interesting finds in the Bible Code.

He is even mentioned by name, Yeshua
Yeshua in Bible Code

BIBLE CODES REVEAL CHRIST TODAY

But deep down it is a faith thing, no other book has been even close in accuracy and science still finds itself catching up in places. The Archaeological examples given above are good examples.

The Lord God said that man could only be in his presence at the Tabernacle but a sacrifice and therefore blood must be given to him to blot out the sin that man has. God finds sin repulsive and the only way we can be with God is for the price to be paid for our sins. Think of things that repulse you and that is the way God feels about sin. But yet He loved his creation so much that He provided a path for the debt of sin to be paid for us.......

Many things can said but deep down it is a faith thing, he wants you to believe through faith, not force. This is a big difference between Islam and Christianity......

Proof is always going to be the big "what if". If God came down and spoke to us from on high directly then many would believe but yet it would not be true Faith as they had to have proof....

The Bible is the only book with the Prophetic accuracy that has shown itself many times, prophecy is not just chance, many try but are wrong. Things in the future can not be predicted with any accuracy except for one thing, the Bible....

PROOF THE BIBLE IS TRUE


Also, my engineering background has exposed me to creation from the very smallest Quark to the largest of Galactic clusters and yet I can not see anything in this that could have occurred by chance, there must be a Creator and therefore we ask just who is it then? That is where your personal journey begins...............Mine began 20 years ago...........



[edit on 19-2-2005 by edsinger]



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by infinite
The true bible codes, the hidden messages, is too complex for a human mind to write.
You can find the same "codes" in Moby Dick


I feel you are wrong here AMUK, Moby dick might have some hideen garbage that is by chance, AMIK I ahve read many books mostly pro I will admit on the subject and an objective statistics anaysis of the odds get very damn big quick.


Just one example to think about, what are the odds that a book written hundreds of years before would have in its 'open' chapter the death of the Messiah and yet mention Him by name in the 'hidden' part?

By your thinking, Moby Dick would have Herman Melville's life story hidden right at the part when the open portion talks of his death. That logic is a stretch at best...

Statistics and the Bible Codes

Anyone can be just as scientific as MBBK and WRR and use the Scientific Method. Set up a "control" to compare the Hebrew scriptures to. Make a list of 15-20 terms that describe a certain event. Search for all of those in the Tanach (Hebrew Old Testament), and then use a control text similar in length, like "Moby Dick". See what you'll find. You'll probably find every term in both texts, but you'll only find a lot of them all together in the Tanach. Of course, this is only for people with Bible Codes software.




[edit on 19-2-2005 by edsinger]



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:36 PM
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Ed no preaching please, well I will have to start with some historical facts but is going to take to much time to do that this thread will end up in a "my story is better than yours one."



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Ed no preaching please, well I will have to start with some historical facts but is going to take to much time to do that this thread will end up in a "my story is better than yours one."


Marg you lost soul it is not preaching at all, read what was written 100's of years before Christ was born...read it!

Was Muhammad predicted in such detail? Buddha? no.......so how then?



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:42 PM
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ED, in my FIRST post I said not to try to provre it by saying the Bible says so. That is not proof.

Try historical proof, scientific proof, etc, not "Jesus says so"

I think the codes mean nothing, you think they do but in EITHER case its not an arguement that can be proved, nor is it the arguement we are proving or disproving here.

If you went into court could you say "my Client is innocent because iit says so in Romans"?

You have to have EVIDENCE.

Lets here what evidence you have that the stories are true.

Lets here what evidence the other side has that the stories are false.



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
You have to have EVIDENCE.

Lets here what evidence you have that the stories are true.

Lets here what evidence the other side has that the stories are false.


What about that prime minister of Israel who was assasnated?? the bible code predicted that and he was showed the evidence pointing to it, he was warned but didnt believe it. Then he was assasnated.

What more evidence do you want??



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by infinite
What more evidence do you want??


How about evidence the universe is 6000 years old?

How about evidence for the flood?

How about evidence that the people and places mentioned really existed?

How about evidence of the sun stopping?

How about evidence Heaven? Hell?

We can talk about the codes along with Nostradamus and Silvia Brown on another thread



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 05:55 PM
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Amuk I do not have the time to get the numbers, but the last figure I saw said the odds of the code being but chance in just the Isaiah one I quoted above were well over 10^80th power, that to an engineer is close to what the Calculus refers to as INFINITY.

I can not put a physical object in your hands that you can hold to prove it to you.............it cant be done and that is ON PURPOSE. It is a faith thing but the signs are there.......



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
How about evidence Heaven? Hell?
[/quote[

The inside of the Earth is hotter then the surface of the son and the accounts of near death experiences where people have reported to go to heaven or hell. There was a case, ill find out, about a person who went to hell and had demons scratching on her legs, when she awoke, she had makes on her legs. This was on a UK chat show about 5 years ago



We can talk about the codes along with Nostradamus and Silvia Brown on another thread


Nostradamus predicts have no meaning and can mean anything. The bible code is more accurate and cannot be coindence due to the accurate detailed.

[edit on 19-2-2005 by infinite]

[edit on 19-2-2005 by infinite]



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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THE BEGINNING

If we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be. Either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning. The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Genesis 1 :1). The atheist has always maintained that there was no beginning. The idea is that matter has always existed in the form of either matter or energy; and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to

form, but it has always been. The Humanist Manifesto says, "Matter is self-existing and not created," and that is a concise statement of the atheist's belief.

The way we decide whether the atheist is correct or not is to see what science has discovered about this question. The picture below on the left represents our part of the cosmos. Each of the disk shaped objects is a galaxy like our Milky Way. All of these galaxies are moving relative to each other. Their movement has a very distinct pattern which causes the distance between the galaxies to get greater with every passing day. If we had three galaxies located at positions A, B. and C in the second diagram below, and if they are located as shown, tomorrow they will be further apart. The triangle they form will be bigger. The day after tomorrow the triangle will be bigger yet. We live in an expanding universe that gets bigger and bigger and bigger with every passing day.



Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards! If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together. The day before that, we were still closer. Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been? At a point! At the beginning! At what scientists call a singularity!


THE CAUSE

If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question_was the creation caused or was it not caused? The Bible states, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause_a creation_but it also tells us what the cause was. It was God. The atheist tells us that "matter is self-existing and not created." If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing. From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent. Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.

In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry. All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics. All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!! Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason! In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science. No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.

The atheist's assertion that matter is eternal is wrong. The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence



THE DESIGN

If we know that the creation had a beginning and we know that the beginning was caused, there is one last question for us to answer--what was the cause? The Bible tells us that God was the cause. We are further told that the God who did the causing did so with planning and reason and logic. Romans 1:20 tells us that we can know God is

"through the things he has made." The atheist, on the other hand, will try to convince us that we are the product of chance. Julian Huxley once said:

We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides. We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents.
The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways. For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance. Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena. A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called "the anthropic principle." The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life. If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley's claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.





this site makes a good rational case imho, but again it must be your own journey the time when you look up and ask why? Then naturally you will ask who?



A PRACTICAL MAN'S PROOF OF GOD



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by edsinger
I can not put a physical object in your hands that you can hold to prove it to you.............it cant be done and that is ON PURPOSE. It is a faith thing but the signs are there.......


There signs are there that GW Bush is a Shape shifting Reptilian too, but I am waiting on some more evidence before I make up my mind.

You tell people that they cant PROVE the bible wrong so that is proof that its right...... then you say the fact that you cant prove it right is ALSO proof that its right?

What I am asking for is merely a honest debate about the Accuracy of the Bible.

I would like to hear both sides give their best argument based in real world science, history, and archeology.



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
I would like to hear both sides give their best argument based in real world science, history, and archeology.


Science - is not always right.

History - can be lies and constructed to cover things up (certain cases it has)

Archeology - not always, but can be wrong sometimes.



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk

What I am asking for is merely a honest debate about the Accuracy of the Bible.

I would like to hear both sides give their best argument based in real world science, history, and archeology.


AMUK , quick question........

Look we all know the 3-dimensional world we live in, but there is a 4th one (time)......these are all our little feeble human mind can comprehend and yet we use the tool of Mathematics to understand the world around us.

Mathematicians have found (10?) dimensions now.....we just can even think of it and yet it IS.

For multi-dimensional string theories with 3 extended space dimensions, 1 time dimension, and a bunch of other compacted space dimensions... it looks like your friend is right. Less than 10 dimensions gives nonsensical mathematical results, and more than 11 predicts that new massless particles (with spin >2) should exist. Becase these particles are not seen in nature, one can conclude that 11 dimensions is the upper limit in order to match up the theory with our universe.

And finally, there's the caveat that nothing in physics is ever certain, and the mathematical basis for the above conclusions could be supplanted some day by a different theory which DOES allow for more dimensions. String theory is a quickly-evolving field (the jump from 10 to 11 dimensions was only made in 1995!), so many questions are still open.

link



posted on Feb, 19 2005 @ 06:18 PM
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One of the most controversial areas of the bible is the first, five books of Genesis, or what many refer to Pentateuch. No more evidence can you find of these books of the Torah that together tells the story of Israel’s history from the beginning of Creation to the wanderings in the desert after the Exodus from Egypt. These books talk about the relationship of Israel and its God.

From the beginning these books concentrated on the Israelis and Jewish patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph ending in the more intimated of it between Moses and then Monotheistic God, and the promised to the Israelis of the promised land.

Now that the old testament was indeed the tales and history of the Israeli tribe, is nothing to argue with.

So how in the world people accept these books that are obviously part of the Jewish history if you are not Jewish is what I am questioning here now.

These books of the bible beginning is Jewish folklore and me being non Jewish I have no reason to accept them as the word of my creator.

Can anybody deny that the books of Genesis are the accounts of the Jewish historical accounts and myths?





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