In Arizona, teaching creationism is supported by 4 of 5 Republicans who want to oversee education

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Hi Krazysh0t--

You wrote QUOTE

'And people wonder why our education standards keep slipping...'

UNQUOTE

I often ask if it would do any harm to teach children 'comparative mythology' in elementary school, which naturally would include the two (albeit contradictory) Creation Myths of the Jews in Genesis 1:1 to 2:4a and Genesis 2:4b to 3:24 along side 100 or so other Creation Myths so that young persons can be exposed to how various cultures around the world expressed their awe of Nature.

You obviously could not purport to teach any of these mythologies as 'empirical-science' but exposing them to comparative mythologies might allow young persons to understand the kind of mythological language used e.g. in Genesis and gain perhaps a keener sense of perhaps the underpinnings of their inherited belief system.

By introducing young people to e.g. the far-earlier-than-Genesis Creation Myths of the Sumero-Babylonian tablets (to cite one example) it would shew students how the various seventh and sixth-century BCE writers and scribal compilers of (e.g. in the post-Exilic Torah of the Jews) derived their mythological elements and would allow them to see these myths in a wider context within Ancient Near Eastern textual traditions going back to as far as 4,000 BCE.

What would be wrong with that ? Unless one is condoning the promulgation of 'tribal myths' as 'empirical science' (e.g. talking snakes or a talking donkey etc.) and not as symbolic esoteric (i.e. religio-philosophical) thought...

Ideas ?

a reply to: Noinden

In my mind a God as powerful as the one
I believe in. Is capable of getting
the message thru true blue. No problem.
So there's that.

a reply to: peter vlar

You aren't even reasonable anymore.

Why the need to teach public school students Creationism? Sunday schools already teach that.

a reply to: randyvs

None the less it is Unvierifiable Personal (or perhaps Shared) Gnosis. That is the beauty of belief, you do not have to prove it. However you can't defend it with facts either

a reply to: randyvs

I know some Catholics who are even more Christian than some Protestants
Randy, the church has done some terrible things, we need to admit that
Jesus is my Saviour, my church is not, my bible is not, I am happy to admit that the church the bible is flawed.
Everything on this planet needs to be restored, it's all been corrupted

No sacred cows

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: peter vlar

You aren't even reasonable anymore.

An awareness of facts doesn’t have a need to be reasonable. There are no contemporary sources of the gospels. There is nothing written in the Bible that is actually attributable to Jesus. Gospels contradict one another because they were written at different times, in different places. What is canonized isn’t the word of god, it was voted on by men hundreds of years after the fact in a committee of Roman aristocracy to decide which books would be the easiest to sell to the general populace of illiterate pagans. But people insist that it is the infallible word of god and then have the brass to say am the unreasonable one? That’s a nutsack piñata if I’ve ever seen one.

You call me an atheist,slur and slander me, insult myself or anyone else who has a differing opinion than yours. You denigrate and mock as if it’s your life’s one true calling and make it all personal for some bizarre reason. All because you put more stock in whether I have a KJV or an NIV on my bookshelf than you do in whether or not I appreciate the message attributed to Christ or live in my life in a fashion that He would approve of.

IF there’s a god at all, yours, ancient Greeks or Hindus or whichever one may or may not greet me when it’s my time to see my brothers yet again, I’m quite confident that I have nothing to fear. I treat others the way I do because it is what I feel to be right and proper. Not because I’m afraid of a Hell that didnt exist until after the fall of Rome.

I’m sorry that pointing out that your basis for argument is fraught with logical fallacies makes me appear unreasonable to you. I suppose it’s par for the course when I think it’s entirely unreasonable to make baseless claims like Atheists are responsible for all school shootings and no other factors could have any part in it whatsoever. I’m not the one hiding behind willful ignorance and then insulting people for seeking clarification and understanding of why you purposely ignore any and all other socio-economic factors because at the core of it your hatred over powers any twinge of light and hope that Christ’s message may have once left in your heart. I hope one day you can find your way back to the light Randy. You’ve become increasingly hostile and bitter the last couple of years. Unreasonable doesn’t even begin to touch the hem of that skirt.

a reply to: peter vlar

You are so full of crap. I dont even read your
posts anymore. It's all about
your way of thinking. And that's it.
Well I think your way of thinking
sucks. Period.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Sorry I see not a god damn thing wrong with the
Bible. I love every word. So you are the worst.

originally posted by: randyvs
Sorry I see not a god damn thing wrong with the
Bible. I love every word. So you are the worst.

So you're cool with slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46) and support it...
You believe homosexuals should be put to death (Leviticus 20:13)...
Or women must subjugate themselves to men (Ephesians 5:22)...
Or St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12...

You love 'every word' of that made up fairy tale, written by homophobic, women-hating racists?

Man, you can keep that thing and enjoy living in the 3rd century.

a reply to: peter vlar

originally posted by: randyvs
You are so full of crap. I dont even read your posts anymore.

@Peter Vlar - he says that about everyone who brings points he cannot contest. Basically it means, he's defeated. He says that to me a lot too.

Cause science knows everything!

Isn’t that great?

Most of my life I lived with 3 tv channels and nukes.

Good job assholes.

originally posted by: noonebutme

originally posted by: randyvs
Sorry I see not a god damn thing wrong with the
Bible. I love every word. So you are the worst.

Ha! Really?
So you're cool with slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46) and support it...
You believe homosexuals should be put to death (Leviticus 20:13)...

You love 'every word' of that made up fairy tale, written by homophobic racists?

Man, you can keep that thing and enjoy living in the 3rd century.

Levi was talking to you!

Good thing you didn’t live back then, eh?

I bet you would have nailed Jesus to the cross yourself, right?

Then washed your hands, right Pontius?

Jesus still Loves you guys.

originally posted by: burgerbuddy
Levi was talking to you!

No, he wasn't.

Good thing you didn’t live back then, eh?

Correct. I'm glad I live in a world of science and knowledge, not superstition and fear of thunder.

I bet you would have nailed Jesus to the cross yourself, right?

If i were a Roman solider and it was my job, sure.

Then washed your hands, right Pontius?

No. I wouldn't try to absolve myself of the action. I'm not a coward. I take full responsibilities for my actions.

Jesus still Loves you guys.

No thanks. Pass.

a reply to: randyvs

Fine Randy, fine
But that's your opinion, your opinion is just that
When you become a Christian, you will learn that not everyone is like you or are supposed to be you
The church done without the bible for a few centuries, you have made it a sacred cow

You cling to your bible, me, I will cling to Christ

a reply to: Sigismundus

I think that teaching children about some religious concepts and stories in Elementary School is a good idea. It shouldn't be too complicated, so perhaps concentrating on just where the current major religions overlap in their creation story might work better.

Obviously this isn't science. I think this falls more under the heading of social studies. But, I'm beginning to believe that it may be just as important; perhaps for no other reason than a non-trivial segment of our population believes it to be true. By teaching the subject as an example of alternative thinking, hopefully all but the most ardent creationism proponents would be satisfied that their point is being made.

The upside for science is that if the Intelligent Design folks are satisfied, they may stop trying to displace evolutionary theory with ID. Properly done, it should not permanently damage the students' ability to distinguish between established science and cultural beliefs. I also think it would be helpful for the children to understand, early in their educational career, some of the beliefs and myths that underpin American culture. Whether we like it or not, religion has had a significant effect on the evolution (ironically) of our unique society.

Obviously this compromise would not satisfy everyone. Maybe it wouldn't satisfy anyone. Certainly the hard-sciences folks don't want the children to be exposed to anything as "irrational" as ID. Some of the hard-Christianity folks would reject the idea because it would be necessary to at least review the creation myths of the 3 major religions. Once Islam is mentioned, I would expect there to be some push-back.

It is interesting to note that this debate we're having in this forum of teaching ID versus Evolution is actually a microcosm of our society in general. On the one hand, we have ardent ID/creationism believers who have a strong unshakable faith in the fact that God created, in one way or another, our universe. On the other hand, we have "rational" thinkers who are quite comfortable in following what they see as significant and irrefutable physical evidence of the evolution of our universe.

The ID followers can't provide any convincing evidence to the rationalists that will hold up to the scientific method. And because of its somewhat irrational nature, nether can they convey the substance of their faith.

Any facts and theories presented by the rational thinkers that don't comport with the ID proponents' beliefs are summarily dismissed by them. Faith is a visceral part of the human psyche that exists outside of the domain of intellectualism.

The seemingly irrational concept of faith as well as the notion of rational reasoning and prediction make up who we are as a species. We must accept that fact and determine the best way forward in integrating those diametrically opposed ideas into our children's' educational system. Otherwise we'll be stuck wasting time on this topic for another 93 years.

-dex

a reply to: Sigismundus

I wouldn't have a problem with that idea. I used to LOVE studying the Greek myths when I was a child. So many cool stories to tell. You just have to make sure that this is a class to teach the stories of the mythology and not to preach the mythology itself.

When it comes to mythology and religion, I would suggest tracing back the roots of religious evolution. For instance, if you want to show where the modern big three Abrahamic faiths got their start from, start with Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism invented the good versus evil ideology that the Abrahamic faiths utilized and refined. Then you can branch out to talk about how each one changed from there.

Also, the more the merrier. Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Sumerian, Babylonian, and Vikings all had some colorful myths as well. Witchcraft and paganism is practiced to this day. Plus there are the Eastern religions such as Hinduism, Shintoism, and Buddhism. All of these religions should be explored as well. Though I wonder how many you could fit into a year long course for elementary students... It would probably be best to make this a yearly class that gets more complex as the students get older. After all, you don't stop studying history in 5th grade.

A class like you suggest could also go a LONG way to helping kids better relate to and understand the viewpoints of people of differing faiths. Perhaps it could help to cut down on the rampant xenophobia that is sweeping our country side too.

The only hangup I have with this idea is that, as it is with any history class, politicians tend to stick their noses into the curriculum. They could alter what is taught so that it is heavily Christian oriented for instance (something I see as a very REAL possibility in the Bible Belt states). This is one of the reasons I suggest people wait until college to really study History as there is less political taint hiding the truth of the past; a comparative mythology class may fall into that same box. Though you'd never know unless you tried. I'm still for it regardless.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: peter vlar

You are so full of crap. I dont even read your
posts anymore. It's all about
your way of thinking. And that's it.
Well I think your way of thinking
sucks. Period.

Ironic. You don’t read my posts but feel confident enough to determine that I’m full of crap? It’s OK if you don’t read my posts. It’s clear that willful ignorance and hypocrisy is the moral quagmire you choose to live in. You can’t sit there with an air of righteousness and say that other people are only about their own way of thinking when I’fe repeatedly asked you questions and tried to understand your position which you refuse to clarify beyond “Atheists are responsible for all school shootings”.

Those were your words Randy, not mine. You’re the one who admits that they don’t know what other factors could be behind school shootings and that you don’t care to look into it and outright refuse to entertain the notion of any possibility aside from “Atheists did it”

You can make this about me all you want, it’s your SOP to ignore everything and put the blinders up immediately the moment you feel any pushback coming from around the corner. It’s a cowardly way to live your life. In fear of everything except the extraordinarily narrow interpretation of Christianity that you embrace. You may stand behind your bible, but pure no follower of Christ’s teachings.

He at least had the courage of his convictions and went to his death with no shame for what he espoused. No fear of telling the incredibly hostile world around him exactly why he believed what he did. You’re a hypocrite and a coward if you can’t even support your own position and run for cover when the facts start pouring in. Hell, you blow a gasket over my replies to other people that have nothing to do with you.

It’s a shame because despite what is really a pretty minor thing we don’t agree on, we used to at least have a mutual respect for one another. You really are an angry and bitter man and become more so with each passing day. I hope that one day I will again see the Randy I used to know and that this bitter miserable coward skulking behind a screen name comes out of the darkness and lets some light back into his life before he is irreconcilably drowned out by his own negativity. Best of luck to you in your journey.

If you ever decide you can get the stick removed from the nether realms and can have a civil discourse, send me a PM. Until then, I will call youmout very time I see you post lies and every time you deny facts and reality because you’re afraid of knowing the truth. Afraid that it might affect your faith. Doesn’t sound like your faith is on very solid ground if you have to issue blanket attacks against anyone that doesn’t agree with you 100%.

Living in fear isn’t living, it’s just existing Randy.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: randyvs

Fine Randy, fine
But that's your opinion, your opinion is just that
When you become a Christian, you will learn that not everyone is like you or are supposed to be you
The church done without the bible for a few centuries, you have made it a sacred cow

You cling to your bible, me, I will cling to Christ

We may never find a middle ground or point where we can agree on science, but for what it’s worth I definitely respect your take on faith and Christ. The world would be much better if everyone decided to take Christ’s message and live it instead of trying to shove a minority’s interpretation of scripture down the throats if everyone else and conversely so if others weren’t so reactionary and resorted to spitting venom the moment Christ’s name were mentioned. I can only go by what you post here but it appears that you’re far more interested in how someone lives their life and treats others according to the message than you are which version of the Bible is on their shelf. It appears I’ve judged you fat too harshly and for that I sincerely apologize. Never thought I’d say this but (views on evolution aside) the world needs more Christians like you.

a reply to: peter vlar

Thanks Pete
I try, pretty hard, most of the time

I wish we could all get along and respect others opinions, disagree by all means but work on getting along
Sadly I am embarrassed to be a Christian knowing how so many act, but I use to act like that as well so....not much better I am afraid

No hard feelings