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Define socialism?

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(post by Edumakated removed for a manners violation)
(post by Peeple removed for a manners violation)

posted on May, 4 2018 @ 12:12 PM
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a reply to: JBurns

The reality is, any and every "economic system" requires some sort of "force" or coercion to implement and maintain, even Capitalism, though, through domestication people have accepted State-backed 'force' even on a limited level (limited government is still government) we are talking about the 'threat' of repercussions of not paying taxes, bills, payments etc, forcing people into actual 'slave labour' even if people enjoy their job, the majority of people work because they are forced to maintain a place within Capitalism IE: Live, etc

so, even in "socialism" or "communism" while the state is abolished, and the means of production are owned by the workers, it still requires some sort of "coercion" to maintain, it still reduces people into "value" and "numbers" and while it is promised that "class will be abolished" it creates a new class-hierarchy "the proletariat", socialism and communism are as workerist as Capitalists are, just with more sociable language.


even some of the main theorists have stated mandatory labour hours.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 12:16 PM
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a reply to: Edumakated

who and what defines "worth" though? what is "worth"?

yes, you are hired to do a Job, you produce something, the boss/owner takes what you produce and profits on it, giving you what someone ( they, the state etc) determined is your worth, your "value"... and you don't see a problem with that?
edit on 4-5-2018 by XAnarchistX because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 12:22 PM
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originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Edumakated

who and what defines "worth" though? what is "worth"?

yes, you are hired to do a Job, you produce something, the boss/owner takes what you produce and profits on it, giving you what someone ( they, the state etc) determined is your worth, your "value"... and you don't see a problem with that?


YOU decide what you are willing to work for and the company decides what is willing to pay... If you don't like what the company is paying, you go offer your labor/services to a different company that is willing to pay more. If the company finds they can't hire someone paying X, they raise the wage until they get people willing to work for the amount they are paying.

This is basic economics. Simply supply and demand curve.

The more people who can do a job, the less it will pay. The fewer people who can do a job, the more it will pay. This is why cashiers at fast food restaurants don't make a lot of money because anyone can do it. On the other hand, jobs that require certain education levels or skills that are harder to find pay a lot more.


edit on 4-5-2018 by Edumakated because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 12:38 PM
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The very system the U.S. is going to have in 5 years.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 12:50 PM
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a reply to: Edumakated

In a "Perfect system, in a Perfect world" the worker gets to decide who they get to work for, we both know that is false, few people have the leisure of picking the job that will pay them what they value themselves, due to the basic fact the employer has that authority to hire you or not, it is a utopic dream to believe that you can select who hires you and your value, especially under Capitalism
edit on 4-5-2018 by XAnarchistX because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 12:56 PM
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Here in the reality of socialism you have a tiny oligarchial clique at the top, usually numbering no more than three percent of the total population, controlling the total wealth, total production and the very lives of the other ninety-seven percent. Certainly even the most naive observe that Mr. Brezhnev doesn't live like one of the poor peasants out on the great Russian steppes. But, according to socialist theory, he is supposed to do just that!

If one understands that socialism is not a share-the Wealth program, but is in reality a method to consolidate and control the wealth..


- None Dare Call it Conspiracy, Gary Allen

Link



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 12:59 PM
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originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Edumakated

In a "Perfect system, in a Perfect world" the worker gets to decide who they get to work for, we both know that is false, few people have the leisure of picking the job that will pay them what they value themselves, due to the basic fact the employer has that authority to hire you or not, it is a utopic dream to believe that you can select who hires you and your value, especially under Capitalism


Huh? You don't have the authority to not work somewhere? My wife just changed jobs. She quit her current job and got a fairly substantial raise and promotion. All on her own.

I work in finance/sales. I get inquiries from recruiters almost daily trying to woo me to leave my current employer to go work elsewhere...

No one forces you to work anywhere at any salary. If you don't think you are being paid enough, you find a different job that pays more. It is that simple. The beauty in a free market is that you have that freedom and choice. However, no one is going to force you to do it. You either get off your behind to make more money or you can sit and cry like a baby that no one is paying you what you want.

With that said, some people may not have as many options as others either due to lack of education, unwillingness to move, etc. However, those are personal issues, not the fault of the company.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

Take a pizza you eat 75% of it and wanna save the last 25% for lunch but your landlord forces you to give the last 25% to your jobless roommate.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 02:10 PM
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a reply to: Edumakated

"Free Market" is a myth, sold to you by these Capitalist Cultists theorists

X works at a Job has the talents and skill set to be a manager, values himself as such, his current Job won't promote X, they go to another company, present themselves get rejected, go to another company, rejected, has to settle for a "lower value job elsewhere"

we can view ourselves as our own gods, but in the current systems, it relies on "who" will also value you as such, especially when they can get other people to do the same job at a lower value

you act as if you can decide "who" hires you



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 02:14 PM
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Op gave us the dictionary meaning of Socialism.

But in today's climate...when we're talking about Bernie Sanders and all of that other stuff. We really talking about the scandinavian countries. That's what people want to emmulate.

So instead of being the grammer nazi's let's actually talk about what people are actually talking about.

They would like America to adapt some similar policies to that of Scandinavian countries.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 02:21 PM
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originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Edumakated

"Free Market" is a myth, sold to you by these Capitalist Cultists theorists

X works at a Job has the talents and skill set to be a manager, values himself as such, his current Job won't promote X, they go to another company, present themselves get rejected, go to another company, rejected, has to settle for a "lower value job elsewhere"

we can view ourselves as our own gods, but in the current systems, it relies on "who" will also value you as such, especially when they can get other people to do the same job at a lower value

you act as if you can decide "who" hires you


Funny, I swear my wife left her job because the promotion opportunities were limited. As such, she put together her resume, applied for jobs through LinkedIn and had a new job with like a 40% raise in less than one month. She interviewed with 4 companies. Two didn't pay enough so she told them to pound sand. The third company she didn't like the corporate culture so told them no thanks. She took the fourth job. Her commute is a bit longer but the money and responsibility more than made up for it.

No one owes you anything. If you don't like what you do for a living, how much you make, etc then it is up to you to make a change in your life.

There are winners and losers. It is up to you to decide which camp you want to be in but it appears you've already made the choice given your constant complaining.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 02:24 PM
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originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Edumakated

"Free Market" is a myth, sold to you by these Capitalist Cultists theorists

X works at a Job has the talents and skill set to be a manager, values himself as such, his current Job won't promote X, they go to another company, present themselves get rejected, go to another company, rejected, has to settle for a "lower value job elsewhere"

we can view ourselves as our own gods, but in the current systems, it relies on "who" will also value you as such, especially when they can get other people to do the same job at a lower value

you act as if you can decide "who" hires you


Remember that it all comes down to hard work and developing skills and contacts. If you do all three there will always be a job for you somewhere. You actually do decide who hires you be preparing for interviews, learning to sell..yourself and developing the skillset that gets you hired.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 02:25 PM
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a reply to: amazing

Overall, it is clear that the Scandinavian countries are not in fact Archetypes of successful Democratic Socialism. Sanders has convinced a great deal of people that Socialism is something it is not, and he has used the Scandinavian countries to prove its Efficacy while ignoring the many ways they Deviate, sometimes Dramatically, from what Sanders himself advocates.

The Scandinavians Embrace a brand of Free-Market Capitalism that exists in conjunction with a large Welfare State, known as the “Nordic Model,” which includes many policies that Democratic Socialists would likely abhor. This is why Bernie Sanders would Never become President Of the United States because the Majority of it's Citizens Still Cling to Free Market Capitalism .



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 02:32 PM
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originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: amazing

Overall, it is clear that the Scandinavian countries are not in fact Archetypes of successful Democratic Socialism. Sanders has convinced a great deal of people that Socialism is something it is not, and he has used the Scandinavian countries to prove its Efficacy while ignoring the many ways they Deviate, sometimes Dramatically, from what Sanders himself advocates.

The Scandinavians Embrace a brand of Free-Market Capitalism that exists in conjunction with a large Welfare State, known as the “Nordic Model,” which includes many policies that Democratic Socialists would likely abhor. This is why Bernie Sanders would Never become President Of the United States because the Majority of it's Citizens Still Cling to Free Market Capitalism .


I'm not sure I agree with you.

In the US, we have a large welfare state already. A big part of that is corporate welfare. But back on point...

The nordic and scandinavian countries all rate high on happiness, standard of living, wealth, healthcare, education, Livability and a number of other indicators. They're really good places to live with great programs.

Of course like anywhere, there is no such thing as a Utopia, but What would be the problem with copying some of the more succesful programs? and Policies?

The Us is way behind on many of these indicators including...Freedom. They all rank slightly higher than the US in personal freedom also.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 02:33 PM
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originally posted by: LightSpeedDriver

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Akragon

Socialism is an ideal that sounds great in classrooms, coffee shops, beer halls.

But not so good when put in place because; people.

People will never make socialism function well because people are lazy, greedy, corrupt.



Seems to me that if you were to replace the word socialism with capitalism you have just described our world as it is today.


People are always the problem.

The difference between the two systems is that in order for a socialist system to exist, it must often be compelled through force. Capitalism is not compelled through force in most cases.

Let's look at the public school system which is nearly 100% socialized or the British NHS. Do you think little Alfie had much choice? When his parents raised the money and had the opportunity to take him elsewhere for treatment, his own government legally denied them and forced him to remain in the system and die as it required.

Or public schools ... All must pay taxes to support them, and if your neighborhood school sucks, you may literally live only a couple of blocks away from the boundary separating you from sending your child to a good school ... that school itself might even be an easy walk or drive, but by force of law, your child has to go to the failing school. It is fraud to even try to send your kid to the better one.

And if you hold your kid out for a private school or to homeschool? You're still paying taxes to support the failing school no matter what the other education route costs.

In the capitalist market?

If I decide to get rid of Google, I can load up DuckDuckGo. No one will stop me or punish me for it. No one will force me to continue to pay for Google.

If I decide to buy a Cadillac Escalade instead of a Prius, I cannot be jailed for it, nor am I compelled to also pay taxes to subsidize Pruises for other people (although I guess I do subsidize Teslas).

A range of companies can provide the same product or service and I can shop around and decide which one offers the best fit for my needs instead of being told which company will provide the product or service no matter what my needs are.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 03:35 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Socialists also tend to confuse society and government. So when someone repudiates government healthcare or welfare, they pretend you mean healthcare and welfare in general.



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 04:20 PM
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a reply to: XAnarchistX


In a "Perfect system, in a Perfect world" the worker gets to decide who they get to work for, we both know that is false, few people have the leisure of picking the job that will pay them what they value themselves, due to the basic fact the employer has that authority to hire you or not, it is a utopic dream to believe that you can select who hires you and your value, especially under Capitalism

There is so much wrong with this statement...

First of all, one's labor's worth is not the value one decides to place on it. Worth is determined by the open marketplace. Consider that labor is a commodity, just like a can of beans. A store can offer to sell a can of beans for 50 cents and it will likely sell fairly quickly. Another store can decide their can of beans is worth $100, and that can of beans is going to likely sit there unsold until the tin corrodes away. The can of beans is simply not worth $100, regardless of how much the owner thinks it is worth.

Likewise, the value of one's labor depends on how much the open market (i.e. other people) are willing to pay for it. Someone who mows yards is performing a service that most can do for themselves; they are only selling convenience. Few people can effectively represent themselves in court, so attorneys find their labor in much higher demand and receive higher compensation. A person stocking shelves in a store may consider their time worth $50 an hour, but because there is a line of people willing to stock shelves for $10 an hour, the value is $10 an hour.

Of course an employer has the authority to hire and fire... so do you. If you need a plumber, do you not have the right to decide which plumber you want?

But people do have the ability to affect who hires them. People decide where to apply for a job. People decide, if a job is offered, whether or not to accept that job. People have the ability to learn new skills and talents that may help them have greater opportunities in the job market. People decide, by their actions with previous employers, what kind of referral they will likely receive: good worker, goof-off, always on time, always late, happy, complainer...

The situation is not whether people have the ability to choose their path, but whether or not people have sufficient desire to choose their path. When I wound up leaving a job because I felt I was being treated too unfairly, my response was to adapt my skills to something that would appeal to the general public, and I opened my own business with $500... it provided for me for 10 years until I had medical issues that caused it to close. Most people simply aren't willing to do what it takes to do that.

Right now, at my age, I am having trouble finding a job doing what I want to do (research engineering). My response is to use my talents to try and develop a marketable product in conjunction with others. It sucks right now, but once that product is developed, it will likely have great value that I can cash in on. I actually have two such projects going now and two more on a back-burner. Most people would simply settle for a below-par job and complain because it's easier... but it is still their choice.

You are looking at a job as some guaranteed benefit to living in society. It is not. We are all responsible for our own actions. The job may be the most common method of obtaining an income, but it is not the only choice and is not guaranteed in any event. It is a contract between yourself and someone else that exchanges one item of value (your time/skills/talents) for another (money). No one has the right to a contract with another person... to force that is the very definition of slavery.

I do not understand the concept of a slavery-based utopia. That sounds like an oxymoron to me.

TheRedneck



posted on May, 4 2018 @ 04:46 PM
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a reply to: amazing

' The Us is way behind on many of these indicators including...Freedom. They all rank slightly higher than the US in personal freedom also. '


According to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights , Americans have More Personal Freedoms than Any other Country on the face of this Earth . It is Unfortunate that some American Citizens are Ignorant about those Rights , and Carelessly go on with their Lives Blind to the Fact that there are those in this Country that would see those Constitutional Rights struck Down for the Greater Good of their Particular Selfish Political Ideology .







 
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