Define socialism?

a reply to: JBurns

Let's be fair: Venezuela is not experiencing socialism at present... it is experiencing the failure of socialism.

The chief disadvantage of socialism in theory is that it does not take into account the natural tendency of people toward self-interest... greed, if you will. There is no restriction inherent in socialism to prevent the people from simply declaring that they want more than the economy can provide. So reality steps in to provide that check in the form of an authoritarian government. The issue then becomes that the government itself is run by people with the exact same greedy tendencies as the people it is in place to regulate. The result is dictatorship and eventual uprising from a failing economy.

It is the opposite of capitalism. Where pure socialism allows human greed to destroy itself, pure capitalism relies on human greed to the extent that it will self-destruct from the greed it relies upon.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Thank God greed is no problem in capitalism, eh?

originally posted by: LightSpeedDriver

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Akragon

Socialism is an ideal that sounds great in classrooms, coffee shops, beer halls.

But not so good when put in place because; people.

People will never make socialism function well because people are lazy, greedy, corrupt.

Seems to me that if you were to replace the word socialism with capitalism you have just described our world as it is today.

No system is perfect, people will always suck.

Now that we are in agreement, don't push a system that will steal my stuff because I am one of those "sucky" greedy people that want to keep my stuff.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I totally agree on balance.

However, my comment was empirical, 'fairness' is an impossible concept.

It reflects the current out of balance in the U.S.. Size of both is a factor. If Corporations are kept within national control and reined in at the international level that might work, more or less. Socialism seems to break down at a smaller size/influence. The family unit works fine under a social system. Communes, some smaller businesses seem to be able to survive and even flourish. Smaller nations, perhaps even to a state level- if approved by the majority- and the 10th Amendment allows for that level of state choice. An example is the health care, Romneycare in Mass.. Voted on and approved by the majority and it seems to work. Enforce a similar system on a nation the size of the U.S., it crashes and burns. Too much enforcement. Too much disagreement.

We are left with oversized Capitalism, Socialism AND Government. We expected each to rein in the other, to some degree. Instead they have unofficially 'merged' and almost made it formal with the TPP.

That leaves the job to us....??? LMAO. In our dreams. There's only one person that even remotely addresses all three and that's Trump. The less than perfect Trump. With our support....and oversight. Sigh.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: TheRedneck

Thank God greed is no problem in capitalism, eh?

Greed in capitalism is what drives innovation. Greed is simply another word for competition. With that said, when a company gets greedy to the point of harm, the markets eventually punish those bad actors. Consumers boycott, stop patronizing the offender, and other competitors come in to offer better service and ethics.

Greed is not inherently bad. Greed is what causes you to clip coupons to save money. Greed is why you "shop around" for the best price. Greed is acting in your own self-interest.

Socialism does not work because it has no mechanism for an individual to pursue their own self-interest. Socialism has to use the power of government to prevent free choice/will. This is why government run programs by in large are inefficient. They are de facto monopolies and because the government controls the market, there is no competition to motivate them to do better.

You cannot have socialism without some form of authoritarianism.

If its not voluntary I dont believe in it

a reply to: Edumakated

That's simply not true. Germany, Suisse, Netherlands, Sweden, ...all very social and further from authoritarianism than the US.


Greed doesn't get regulated it gets outsourced. Ask those people who make your clothes in Bangladesh fe how awesome they think capitalism works....

a reply to: Akragon


What Socialism Really Is to Some People ……

Socialism Demands Obedience and allows little Dissent. You work for whom and what you are Told. Goals are assigned by persons not present and whom have little or no Concrete Experience in your actions and Debate is Criminal. Failure is Criminal for it opens the realm that those above you were Incompetent in their planning or in granting you Authority in the first place. Innovation is Discouraged , for it forces others to admit Shortcomings in existing Systems and creates Conflict in a Static System. Quotas are not measures of Success but Threats of Punishment. The most Successful in the system gravitate to Positions of Power in which they decide the Rules and Administer or Withhold Punishment for Failures. The Rule Makers are Rewarded with Power Over All Others.They are the Cultural Icons of Human Misery .

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Edumakated

That's simply not true. Germany, Suisse, Netherlands, Sweden, ...all very social and further from authoritarianism than the US.


Greed doesn't get regulated it gets outsourced. Ask those people who make your clothes in Bangladesh fe how awesome they think capitalism works....

While those countries do offer some socialist benefits, they are still largely capitalistic. The other issue is that they are small and homogeneous populations. Sweden as a country barely has the population of New York City. However, even those countries are having issues under the weight of these socialistic programs such as healthcare.

Truth About SwedenCare

Capitalism has raised more people out of poverty than any other economic system. While a factory worker in Bangledesh may look poor to the fat and lazy poor in America with our crazy high standard of living (thanks to Capitalism), the reality is that Bangledesh worker is making more money than they would have otherwise. So they get to work in a factory for $2/day versus digging through a garbage heap. That $2/day in Bangledesh is like earning say $100/day in America.

You have realize that the poorest hoodrat in America lives like the 1% globally.

a reply to: Peeple

Thank God greed is no problem in capitalism, eh?

That is the exact opposite of what I said...

TheRedneck

a reply to: nwtrucker

The family unit is not socialism... it is communism. And yes, it works and works well. "From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs."

The size issue comes into play because communism requires brotherly love between all individuals. One person who loves money more than others in the commune upsets the whole system. Socialism, as a form of 'communism lite,' also relies upon the empathy of the masses, just not to as great an extent.

The irony I see in this is that the SJW movement, as the public face of socialism, tends to project more hatred toward those they should be convincing than they do empathy toward the concerns those have. They destroy the very system they promote even before they can promote it effectively.

We are left with oversized Capitalism, Socialism AND Government. We expected each to rein in the other, to some degree. Instead they have unofficially 'merged' and almost made it formal with the TPP.

Agreed. Sadly, agreed.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Edumakated

You have to realise that American capitalism is sucking the world dry. You have your crazy high living standard because you don't care which and how many people around the globe suffer.
Fair trade is anti-capitalistic.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Edumakated

You have to realise that American capitalism is sucking the world dry. You have your crazy high living standard because you don't care which and how many people around the globe suffer.
Fair trade is anti-capitalistic.

So all the tech, healthcare, other innovation; not to mention the hundreds of billions of dollars the US exports to third world sh*tholes is sucking the world dry? Are you serious? Half the world still would be wiping their ass with leaves if it weren't for America. By the way, you can't even get toilet paper in Venezuela....

No Toilet Paper in Venezuela

a reply to: Edumakated

Just as Cuba trade embargos because they don't follow your favourite -ism.
The world would be so much better off without the US. In all regards.
You didn't invent healthcare, what stupid argument is that? All you brought to the world that is slightly worth mentioning is Hollywood and that's been going downhill for years too.

Oh right I forgot great things like atomic bombs and prism....

a reply to: Akragon

Americanised Propaganda, and Capitalist domestication, the idea that "capitalism means you work for your profit, and socialism is the State takes your property and gives it to the poor" pure red scare propaganda.

No one thinks about under Capitalism, the Boss takes your labour and sells it for their profit while giving you minimum reimbursement for your labour, time etc that is technically taking your labour "property" and selling it for their profit, how is that acceptable?


either way, any economic and social platform from Capitalism, to socialism, communism, Mutualism etc is just spooky nonsense that attempts to place some non-existent "value" on people and items

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: Edumakated

Just as Cuba trade embargos because they don't follow your favourite -ism.
The world would be so much better off without the US. In all regards.
You didn't invent healthcare, what stupid argument is that? All you brought to the world that is slightly worth mentioning is Hollywood and that's been going downhill for years too.

If you think I said the us "invented healthcare", you aren't smart enough to have a debate with me. The US didn't event healthcare, but we export healthcare ADVANCEMENTS around the world. Life saving drugs, surgeries, techniques, etc.

C'mon man, you can do better...

originally posted by: Edumakated

So all the tech, healthcare, other innovation;

Your words.

originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Akragon

Americanised Propaganda, and Capitalist domestication, the idea that "capitalism means you work for your profit, and socialism is the State takes your property and gives it to the poor" pure red scare propaganda.

No one thinks about under Capitalism, the Boss takes your labour and sells it for their profit while giving you minimum reimbursement for your labour, time etc that is technically taking your labour "property" and selling it for their profit, how is that acceptable?


either way, any economic and social platform from Capitalism, to socialism, communism, Mutualism etc is just spooky nonsense that attempts to place some non-existent "value" on people and items

What is stopping you from becoming your own boss?

An employee is hired to do a job. As an employee, you are selling your time and skills and remunerated in the form of a wage. If you think of yourself as an individual business, the wage you earn is "revenue". Your bills are expenses. What you have left is profit.

EVERYONE is out of their own profit.

Companies are only going to pay what a job is worth. If your skills don't justify more than $10/hr, you aren't going to make more then $10/hr. Mathematically, you need to generate more than $10/hr for it to make sense that a company would hire you. Jobs aren't created just for the hell of it. They are created because said job produces more than it costs.

Do you pay your barber more than he is worth? When you pay your barber, are you not taking his labour and paying him a "minimum amount?"

a reply to: XAnarchistX

Great points, as usual

It is a shame a lot of folks simply would be unable to exist in a state of true freedom (ie: anarchism, pure libertarianism)

We do pretty well in the United States (at least we used to). But at some point, the government decided to erroneously appoint itself as the responsible party for Joe Schmoe's private life. Along with that came the delusion that regulation/governance could somehow take the place of personal choice, liberty and self-determination.

The resultant state of less-than-total-freedom is a consequence of that, sadly.

a reply to: Peeple

Fair trade is anti-capitalistic.

And water is anti-wet, right?

We're having a decent conversation here. You have already exactly misrepresented a statement I made and now you want to make such a blatantly ignorant statement as the one I quoted? That is precisely the issue that causes socialism to fail. The greed you seem to hate so badly is inherent in you, evidenced by your very refusal to even consider statements that you think might disagree with your warped world view in the slightest detail.

You destroy that which you claim to espouse, with hatred and vitriol for everyone around you.

TheRedneck