Changing definitions of middle class

a reply to: angeldoll

There's no value in doing something you were trained to do. That just makes you a parrot regurgitating information. There's only value in leveraging knowledge to do something new.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: angeldoll

There's no value in doing something you were trained to do. That just makes you a parrot regurgitating information. There's only value in leveraging knowledge to do something new.

Actually, to me, if you're bouncing from degree to degree, claiming to be "leveraging one's knowledge", it just says you're a flake who cannot hold down a job in any degree's field you get.

Learning for the sake of learning & growing oneself from the knowledge amassed is something we should aspire to be as a species in the near future, but for right now, learning for pleasure is better served as a hobby when you're not on the clock. Our global society sees more merit in proving you're reliable in your field of expertise than in your ability to degree-hop.

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: angeldoll

There's no value in doing something you were trained to do. That just makes you a parrot regurgitating information. There's only value in leveraging knowledge to do something new.

Actually, to me, if you're bouncing from degree to degree, claiming to be "leveraging one's knowledge", it just says you're a flake who cannot hold down a job in any degree's field you get.

Learning for the sake of learning & growing oneself from the knowledge amassed is something we should aspire to be as a species in the near future, but for right now, learning for pleasure is better served as a hobby when you're not on the clock. Our global society sees more merit in proving you're reliable in your field of expertise than in your ability to degree-hop.

I learn and work on the clock, and I attend classes off the clock.

originally posted by: Aazadan


Housing does vary wildly, but the other thing I think you need to take into account is the time cost of your commute. Whatever your hourly rate is, you're effectively spending that for every hour of your commute. If your median household is $112,000 that's about $54/hour. Two people each commuting for 90 minutes a day is 3 hours of household time lost. That has a value of $162/day, which is $42,120 per year that should be considered an additional household cost. If moving into a city increases your mortgage by $2500 a month but reduces your commute by 2/3, you save $28,080 in commute costs and pay $30,000 in increased housing, which works out to being roughly equal.

That is a good point, I commute 1 hour each way and it isn't so much about money as it is about quality of life...i.e. better schools, logistically better, better housing etc., so I don't see the 2 hours of communing as loss income since I don't think I could find a job that pays as well as the one I have nearer my house.

To be honest I think we have more free time today than anytime in history when you add up everything you need to do that either you don't do anymore or it takes a lot less time now. As far as working, some work long weeks 50, 60 or more, but I think in the past that was more of the norm than 40 hours we see today as the norm.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: angeldoll

There's no value in doing something you were trained to do. That just makes you a parrot regurgitating information. There's only value in leveraging knowledge to do something new.

Well it depends on whether you become a system expert in a day or it takes 5 years or more will drive how long you might keep learning a skill. Once you learned that skill(s) then you need a apply them for the maximum contribution not so much "parrot regurgitating information". I would like your examples what jobs you had as to you learned them and then moved on the prevent repetitive learning as a major factor in leaving... Head fryer at BK comes to mind where this might be a good example of this...


BTW the big bucks are when your skills hit that maximum level of growth. As example you want to be a pilot, well you are not going to see the big bucks until you spend 10 years working your way into the majors and then the left seat for maximum pay. Those 10 years was learning/building your skills and now you can reap the benefits of high skill, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

a reply to: Xtrozero

No, those 10 years are paying your dues, not something I happen to believe in.

My current job, I do new things, I figure out how to do something, build it as a proof of concept, then hand it off to someone else to repeat, and move on to something else.

I'm a lead software engineer at a Fortune 500 company (due to the way the company titles work, they don't have an architect position, my role is closer to that), it's the only job I've ever held in my life. I never applied, they just contacted me and said they wanted me to work for them paying $100k for 20 hours/week.

I figured why not, as I didn't really have a good reason to turn the position down.

originally posted by: Aazadan


No, those 10 years are paying your dues, not something I happen to believe in.

So going from a 172 to a 777 Capt is a simple step that doesn't need years of experience to get the skills to do?

My current job, I do new things, I figure out how to do something, build it as a proof of concept, then hand it off to someone else to repeat, and move on to something else.

You don't do new things, you are in the same job, you start new projects using the same old skills you have. Welcome to the professional world...lol

a reply to: angeldoll

I'm just saying the path of multiple degrees does not necessarily mean success. In fact, it can be an excuse to avoid functioning in a work environment.

True, that's exactly what I did. Graduated with 2 MAs, joined the military, then after my service, went back and worked on my Phd to become an academic.

Never used my education, but became a capitalist entrepreneur instead. But what I learned in the University environment made it all possible.

I can now make an obscene amount of money, with no boss, no office, sitting in a bar on the beach with my phone. Livin the dream, all thanks to the California system of education and the people I met during that process. It really is WHO you know.....

I suppose by my income, I'm still considered middle class...but I feel like a privileged individual and the master of my own destiny. How much is that worth?

a reply to: olaru12

So obscene amounts of money is middle class?

originally posted by: Xtrozero
So going from a 172 to a 777 Capt is a simple step that doesn't need years of experience to get the skills to do?

One either knows something or they don't. There are no degrees, knowledge is absolute, if you partially know something, you don't know it.

You don't do new things, you are in the same job, you start new projects using the same old skills you have. Welcome to the professional world...lol

Sure I do, I pick up and put down different technologies for every single job I do. No two use the same, and something new is always included.

Edit: You might find that to be a pretty strange definition of knowledge, but it's the result of having had several professors who had teaching styles where answers were absolute. Any flaw would mark the whole answer (and often times, the whole test) wrong.

originally posted by: Aazadan

One either knows something or they don't. There are no degrees, knowledge is absolute, if you partially know something, you don't know it.

Really? Sometimes it takes decades to know something... not here to argue with you...

Sure I do, I pick up and put down different technologies for every single job I do. No two use the same, and something new is always included.

But you constantly use learned skills...lol

What if your next project was to build a house...you just going to pick up a hammer and have at it?

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Really? Sometimes it takes decades to know something... not here to argue with you...

I said the same thing earlier and was told you can learn everything in just a single 4 year degree.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: olaru12

So obscene amounts of money is middle class?

It's all relative isn't it. I don't need or want anything.

originally posted by: olaru12
It's all relative isn't it. I don't need or want anything.

No, it is not. Doing well is not relative to others around you, it is an objective measurement. You are claiming obscene amounts of money in an area where middle class is $350k. Either you are not making obscene amounts of money, or you are making a lot (lets say $700k, so double middle class) of money.

The degree of freedom you feel you have is irrelevant to the degree of freedom you actually have.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
What if your next project was to build a house...you just going to pick up a hammer and have at it?

There are only so many ways one can hammer a nail.

But that aside, I don't do blue collar work.

originally posted by: Aazadan
Doing well is not relative to others around you, it is an objective measurement.

I get confused with the whole idea of class thing to be honest. I can often be found having a beer with mates which range from millionaires to being on welfare. Nobody is any happier than the other, in fact I'd go so far as to say that my rich mates have an added challenge that they often don't know who to trust.

If we based the class system on number of trusted friends then I'm upper class...cash wise, not so much lol

a reply to: Aazadan

The degree of freedom you feel you have is irrelevant to the degree of freedom you actually have.

Stupid semantics. Try again.

originally posted by: Aazadan

I said the same thing earlier and was told you can learn everything in just a single 4 year degree.

Well that is what the Colleges keep spewing. Pay 60k for this # degree and a 100k job is just waiting...those degree do not align with anything in the job market and so no job is there past 20 bucks an hour. They then blame the rich as they become the 99%ers... They need to put the blame in the right place of colleges that see them as profit only.

In the mean time another guy becomes a plumber, does a few years of apprenticeship and then makes 100 per hour or more...lol

originally posted by: Xtrozero
In the mean time another guy becomes a plumber, does a few years of apprenticeship and then makes 100 per hour or more...lol

Haha, actually laughed at that!!
My son did that, he won a place at a selective school, top 20 academic results in England, but decided he wanted to put off university and chose an apprenticeship as a plumber instead. He's doing well for himself and has no debt.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: olaru12
It's all relative isn't it. I don't need or want anything.

No, it is not. Doing well is not relative to others around you, it is an objective measurement. You are claiming obscene amounts of money in an area where middle class is $350k. Either you are not making obscene amounts of money, or you are making a lot (lets say $700k, so double middle class) of money.

Yes, it absolutely IS relative. Doing well in life is indeed all relative, not strictly objective.
For example, I think we are doing well financially in my household. I've been significantly poorer in my life, and can say this is a good income level for us to live on. I wouldn't need or want my husband to bust his ass for more money, we don't need it You, on the other hand, seem to think that personal views do not apply. They definitely do, and you're deluding yourself to think otherwise. Everyone has their own personal standard for doing well to categorize themselves with. It's not your call to do so. General area or regional guidelines for shoehorning groups together and calling it a class is one thing, actually feeling positive about your life wedged in those statistic categories is another. It's all relative.

The degree of freedom you feel you have is irrelevant to the degree of freedom you actually have.

Not really. The degree of freedom which you feel happy with matters more.

Aaz, I get the distinct feeling you think you have something to prove to the world and nobody cares. I can't feel sorry for that kind of mindset, it's your own self-made & self-sustaining pit of oblivion to dwell in.